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A small tweak that could be made is to remove the smash SR from all MC's and then reduce the cost of the MC's accordingly. The smash rules would then be given on MC CCW profiles instead.

This makes it so if you want a dakka fex, he's actually cheaper because your no longer paying for the AP 2 and Smash USR until you purchase those CCW's at which point he returns to the current value.

Riptide would lose the ap2 but probably still need a point increase.

And if people are concerned this is still an overnerf, we could consider MC's to have a base ap4

There is no overnerf for the Riptide atm. That's how crazy it is compared to say, a Leman Russ.

The issue is people see a problem with the MC type as opposed to a bunch of models that are over powered that just so happen to be MC. You don't fix them by nerfing MC. Attack the actual problems, not the symptoms.

Except making MC's AP4 and binning smash wouldn't work either.

Nids MC's all share CCW types with other models in their range.
So you'd have to create specific rules for the monstrous ones.

Fexs gain AP2 and +1S from smash (providing they don't take claws) So the gain is minimal for them.


The boost in strength really is dependant on the actual MC.


Daemons rarely need AP2 anyway as most of the bigger ones are running gift weapons that provide it no matter what.




It's a blanket coverage that can't work as the MC's vary too much.

Here are some main BRB changes I would be down with to balance Vehicles & MCs.

1) Smash grants AP3 on all attacks, or substitute your attacks for D3 AP1 attacks at 2x Str armourbane. MCs AND Walkers get Smash & Move through Cover

2) Vehicles get armour saves. Either create a system where AV__ equals X+ save, +1 for Tank -1 for Open-topped, or Errata every single vehicle to have specific Armour saves. There is no reason to skip this step just because the "to wound" uses AV rather than a chart.

3) MCs also roll on a Damage chart. I would create a single chart for both Vehicles & MCs and maybe make it a D3 chart with simple effects like Stunned (which works for both). The highest result could outright kill the target, but it needs to be hard to get, like you need +2 on your roll to get it.
AP1 is the only AP that adds +1 to the chart.

That's just a start, but think those 3 changes would instantly create a better balance for MCs, Walkers, etc.

-

With those 3 changes alone not 1 tyranid MC would be close to use able.
You just removed all AP2 or better from the army, so they now can't deal with 2+ except with 1-3 random attacks. (And warp blast Lance shot)

So a fex averages around 0.64 of a wound against terminators.
Then then kill it easily with return attacks.

So, it's crippled nids.
Riptide and dreadknight however still perform perfectly due to one being a shooter and the other accessing AP2 weapons.

They are slightly easier to kill at the expense of another army.
You just recreated grav all over again lol.

Biggest...scrap that.
MCs have two issues.
1. They exist in armies they have no right to exist in.
2. Those same MCs residing in armies they have no right to exist in are also loaded with powerful, ranged weaponry.

 Jackal wrote:

Spoiler:

With those 3 changes alone not 1 tyranid MC would be close to use able.
You just removed all AP2 or better from the army, so they now can't deal with 2+ except with 1-3 random attacks. (And warp blast Lance shot)

So a fex averages around 0.64 of a wound against terminators.
Then then kill it easily with return attacks.

So, it's crippled nids.
Riptide and dreadknight however still perform perfectly due to one being a shooter and the other accessing AP2 weapons.

They are slightly easier to kill at the expense of another army.
You just recreated grav all over again lol

.

Nids need a new codex with
A) all their darn rules in one place and
B) Better rules. Several units being Beasts for starters, including most of the MCs. Can you imagine Monstrous Creature Beast Carnifex? Or just give the army a blanket rule "Tyranid Beasts: all units from this codex add +3" to every move, run or charge"

It is as said, there is no blanket fix for MCs that doesn't screw over Nids, so let's fix the MC rules, then immediately fix Nids

-

Specifically balancing the individual units would be ideal.
Barring that, I've thought about instead of the "double toughness is instant death" mechanic, maybe wounds suffered scale with the to wound chart.

When the chart usually "caps" at 2+ to wound, instead it would deal an additional wound for each point of strength beyond that. So the lascannon vs. TMC (s9 vs. T6) would deal 2 wounds, and a Hammerhead's Railgun would deal 3 wounds.

This wouldn't solve all the problems, but it would help de-emphasize the value of the T4 to T5 jump as well as make single-shot high strength weapons a bit better. It still nerfs TMC's more than ideal, but helps (slightly) vs Riptides, WK, and the other primary offenders.

Thoughts? Would this break something in an unintended way?

 Galef wrote:

 Jackal wrote:

Spoiler:

With those 3 changes alone not 1 tyranid MC would be close to use able.
You just removed all AP2 or better from the army, so they now can't deal with 2+ except with 1-3 random attacks. (And warp blast Lance shot)

So a fex averages around 0.64 of a wound against terminators.
Then then kill it easily with return attacks.

So, it's crippled nids.
Riptide and dreadknight however still perform perfectly due to one being a shooter and the other accessing AP2 weapons.

They are slightly easier to kill at the expense of another army.
You just recreated grav all over again lol

.

Nids need a new codex with
A) all their darn rules in one place and
B) Better rules. Several units being Beasts for starters, including most of the MCs. Can you imagine Monstrous Creature Beast Carnifex? Or just give the army a blanket rule "Tyranid Beasts: all units from this codex add +3" to every move, run or charge"

It is as said, there is no blanket fix for MCs that doesn't screw over Nids, so let's fix the MC rules, then immediately fix Nids

-

Yes.
Yes to Tyranids becoming Beasts.
personally I'd be happy if just Hormagaunts became Beasts, maybe Genestealers as well but blanketing Nids with the Beast rule or even a 3" boost would be amazing.

Talinsin wrote:
Specifically balancing the individual units would be ideal.
Barring that, I've thought about instead of the "double toughness is instant death" mechanic, maybe wounds suffered scale with the to wound chart.

When the chart usually "caps" at 2+ to wound, instead it would deal an additional wound for each point of strength beyond that. So the lascannon vs. TMC (s9 vs. T6) would deal 2 wounds, and a Hammerhead's Railgun would deal 3 wounds.

This wouldn't solve all the problems, but it would help de-emphasize the value of the T4 to T5 jump as well as make single-shot high strength weapons a bit better. It still nerfs TMC's more than ideal, but helps (slightly) vs Riptides, WK, and the other primary offenders.

Thoughts? Would this break something in an unintended way?

A discussion on exactly that sort of rule for your perusal.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Battlegrinder wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I still can't get over hammerhead railgun deals one wound. Absurd. Suspension of disbelief breaking levels of absurd.

"wound" does not mean "tanked a railgun shot to center mass with no issue". If it helps just assume the shot hit the carapace or something (or hell, that it was a clean miss and the wound was from the round's windshear).

Taking a wound means that you took a wound. It's not "it hit the carapace or something".

Politely disagree. An exarch that loses a wound to a heavy bolter didn't necessarily have half his limbs blown off and just kept going. A space marine captain on a bike that gets wounded by a lascannon isn't necessarily driving around with a new window in his chest (though some fluff suggests he might be!). Wounds, at least in some cases, are partially "plot armor." A troup master isn't physically more resillient than a regular harlequin. He just has more plot armor letting him stay in the fight longer. That first bolter shot always grazes him or narrowly misses him but eats up some of the extra time he stole from the Mora-Heg.

That said, MCs in 40k are often depicted as literally being shot in the guts with lascannons and plasma and continuing to press the attack, so it's not all plot armor in the case of some units. Wounds are abstractions the same way to-hit, to-wound, armor saves are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Jackal wrote:

Spoiler:

With those 3 changes alone not 1 tyranid MC would be close to use able.
You just removed all AP2 or better from the army, so they now can't deal with 2+ except with 1-3 random attacks. (And warp blast Lance shot)

So a fex averages around 0.64 of a wound against terminators.
Then then kill it easily with return attacks.

So, it's crippled nids.
Riptide and dreadknight however still perform perfectly due to one being a shooter and the other accessing AP2 weapons.

They are slightly easier to kill at the expense of another army.
You just recreated grav all over again lol

.

Nids need a new codex with
A) all their darn rules in one place and
B) Better rules. Several units being Beasts for starters, including most of the MCs. Can you imagine Monstrous Creature Beast Carnifex? Or just give the army a blanket rule "Tyranid Beasts: all units from this codex add +3" to every move, run or charge"

It is as said, there is no blanket fix for MCs that doesn't screw over Nids, so let's fix the MC rules, then immediately fix Nids

-

Yes.
Yes to Tyranids becoming Beasts.
personally I'd be happy if just Hormagaunts became Beasts, maybe Genestealers as well but blanketing Nids with the Beast rule or even a 3" boost would be amazing.

Doesn't this invalidate the "gimmick" of a lot of tyranid units and also arguably remove some of their gravitas? Gargoyles, for instance, don't really have much over a regular gaunt now except a blind attack that doesn't kick in until the end of the first round of assault and the ability to deepstrike. Shrikes would be worse warriors. So would raveners if I'm not mistaken? And then you have things like the carnifex who seems to be intended to feel "big, heavy and stompy." Basically a battering ram on legs. Which is cool, but sort of hard to justify when he's running laps around eldar.

Some variation on the +3" idea might fit better. I kind of like the idea of synapse allowing you to issue a "synaptic impulse", basically a buff, at the start of each turn. Letting all 'nids add 3" to their movement, run, and charge might Fit the bill. A carnifex or foot tyrant with such a bonus would cover 13"-18" on turn 1, which isn't awful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And while we're on the subject, would anyone be opposed to giving all MCs armor bane as a standard rule again? I never felt it was over the top in 5th, though the abundance of parking lots may have had something to do with that. Smash is a rule seldom used from what I've seen, and is mostly useful as a way of getting AP2. It would help tyranids out against mechanized armies. Tau MCs might have a special rule preventing them from getting armorbane with the justification that "tau don't like punching things."

I wouldn't be opposed to any buffs to MCs as long as their existance is limited back to armies they belong in - Melee armies.

" MCs in 40k are often depicted as literally being shot in the guts with lascannons and plasma and continuing to press the attack"

Then pay for it, absurd as it is.

The problem is the separate vehicles rules.
If you got rid of these and replaced them with a rule set to cover all units in a similar way.You would be able to represent all the units in the game in a logical and proportional way.
And as proportional rules allow much better game balance in the first place.You could just enjoy playing the game rather than obsessing over 'randum' charts and very 'special ' rules.

If you have to keep the current rules I would much prefer vehicles to be treated as M/Cs and every other unit in 40k.(Its easier to implement .)

That's not the problem. The problem is that GW can't appropriately cost units. It might be easier to correctly cost units in your system, or maybe not.

The system is only good as the judgment calls made when pricing units.

@Martel732.
Well if it is not the problem , then we can simply change the unit type between M/C and vehicle, or and it makes no difference to the point values?

As M/Cs and (walking) vehicles have similar functions in lots of cases,why are they treated as different unit types in 40k?

if the system does not give proportional results, you have no hope of arriving at a provable level of (im)balance.

Martel732 wrote:
" MCs in 40k are often depicted as literally being shot in the guts with lascannons and plasma and continuing to press the attack"

Then pay for it, absurd as it is.

Are wraith knights and carnifex not paying enough points for the ability to not be insta-gibbed by a hammerhead?

 Galef wrote:

 Jackal wrote:

Spoiler:

With those 3 changes alone not 1 tyranid MC would be close to use able.
You just removed all AP2 or better from the army, so they now can't deal with 2+ except with 1-3 random attacks. (And warp blast Lance shot)

So a fex averages around 0.64 of a wound against terminators.
Then then kill it easily with return attacks.

So, it's crippled nids.
Riptide and dreadknight however still perform perfectly due to one being a shooter and the other accessing AP2 weapons.

They are slightly easier to kill at the expense of another army.
You just recreated grav all over again lol

.

Nids need a new codex with
A) all their darn rules in one place and
B) Better rules. Several units being Beasts for starters, including most of the MCs. Can you imagine Monstrous Creature Beast Carnifex? Or just give the army a blanket rule "Tyranid Beasts: all units from this codex add +3" to every move, run or charge"

It is as said, there is no blanket fix for MCs that doesn't screw over Nids, so let's fix the MC rules, then immediately fix Nids

-

Most of their Monstrous Creatures shouldn't be Beasts. However, all regular Infantry outside Warriors I'm a fan of becoming beasts as they're supposed to be nimble and stuff. But things like the Carnifex and Mawloc and Tervigon? Too bulky looking to be fast.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" MCs in 40k are often depicted as literally being shot in the guts with lascannons and plasma and continuing to press the attack"

Then pay for it, absurd as it is.

Are wraith knights and carnifex not paying enough points for the ability to not be insta-gibbed by a hammerhead?

Nope. Not at all. Of course, this is beside the point that a hammerhead should cause catastrophic damage with a weapon like that. Not one wound.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" MCs in 40k are often depicted as literally being shot in the guts with lascannons and plasma and continuing to press the attack"

Then pay for it, absurd as it is.

Are wraith knights and carnifex not paying enough points for the ability to not be insta-gibbed by a hammerhead?

Wraithknight? HELL NO! pretty much everyone but Eldar players agree Wraithknights are undercosted in every concievable way.

As for the Carnifex it pays for the instagib ability against double strength and only double strength right across its statline. I2, 3+ save and six toughness is a joke. I've seen a Carnifex brood of three put down by a unit of Assault Marines with Lightning Claws at half the price - it was over in one turn and the Assault Marines didn't take a single wound.

Carnifex is still better than most vehicles. Depressing, that.

Martel732 wrote:
Carnifex is still better than most vehicles. Depressing, that.

Not really.
A base Carnifex costs 120 points and moves slow, so it's double the cost of a lot of Rhino chassis, a Whirlwind or Predator will kill it long before it gets close, I wouldn't be surprised if a Razorback could too.
Since the +2 attacks base FAQ you'd struggle to find a Dreadnought that wouldn't stomp it without suffering scratched paint.
There's plenty of reasons Tyranids are bottom of the Codex heap, Carnifexes are a good example.

Carnifexes are also far from the worst MC tyranids have. I'd actually put them in the upper third of TMCs.
Of the 16-19ish non-gargantuan TMCs in the game, there are maybe 4 or 5 I'd take over a carnifex.

Arson Fire wrote:
Carnifexes are also far from the worst MC tyranids have. I'd actually put them in the upper third of TMCs.
Of the 16-19ish non-gargantuan TMCs in the game, there are maybe 4 or 5 I'd take over a carnifex.

Harpy
Mawlock
Flyrant
Dimachaeron
Hive Crone

At least they'd be my picks.

I despise Harpies for being completely ineffectual, and would never take one aside from maybe in an intro game.
But aside from them, that's my list too.

I'm so happy to see so many people support the TMCs. Honestly, I think you would get better results arguing that anything not a daemon or a TMC, ie everything that is more metal than flesh or warp dust, be made a walker, and then arguing for fixing vehicle and walker rules. For the record, the only reason people complain about the hive tyrant is because that is the only thing you will see most of the time.

Anyhow, >insert< NidLivesMatter and Save The Tyranids memes

Martel732 wrote:


As I've said many times, miscosted units are the worst part of the game, not the actual rules. Want supremacy armor? Great! Pay 900+ for it and I won't care.

That's exactly what I think, the only general rule that I would change is to bring more range in close combat rolls, I mean the possibility to hit on a 2+ and 6+. There are some models with WS8 or even more, so if they fight against some WS4 they should be able to hit on a 2+ of course, I don't get why BS is considered different than WS when it comes rolling to hit.

About MCs I think they're not a problem at all. To balance the game we have to cripple SM grav and their free vehicles, eldar D weapons, tau firepower and daemons psychic phase. Increasing some point values can fix the entire game.

Arson Fire wrote:
I despise Harpies for being completely ineffectual, and would never take one aside from maybe in an intro game.
But aside from them, that's my list too.

I like them.
They're a bit expensive for their actual damage output but equipped with Stranglethorns they draw attention and shots away from other units, they'd actually be better if they were toughness 4. Not too many S10 weapons can be pointed skywards, S9 and S8 instakill would actually make it more tempting to point bigger weapons at them.

 Blackie wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


As I've said many times, miscosted units are the worst part of the game, not the actual rules. Want supremacy armor? Great! Pay 900+ for it and I won't care.

That's exactly what I think, the only general rule that I would change is to bring more range in close combat rolls, I mean the possibility to hit on a 2+ and 6+. There are some models with WS8 or even more, so if they fight against some WS4 they should be able to hit on a 2+ of course, I don't get why BS is considered different than WS when it comes rolling to hit.

About MCs I think they're not a problem at all. To balance the game we have to cripple SM grav and their free vehicles, eldar D weapons, tau firepower and daemons psychic phase. Increasing some point values can fix the entire game.

I disagree. MCs are a huge problem. Some much more than others.