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That's pretty uncharitable of you, krazy.

Pre ordered mine as well

I'll admit I'm amazed people are still supporting this company.

 Elbows wrote:
I'll admit I'm amazed people are still supporting this company.

No gak. Even with zero cares about the AvP KS, you would think they would hold off pre-ordering based on the fact Jarek and crew have yet to deliver the Space Crusade game pre-orders...

Reward piss poor behavior, you get piss poor behavior.

 Elbows wrote:
I'll admit I'm amazed people are still supporting this company.

People still support Mierce Miniatures even though they are owned by the guy who ran Maelstrom Games who scammed hundreds of people out of tens of thousands of pounds worth of product, me included...

Yeah...no...

 MadCowCrazy wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
I'll admit I'm amazed people are still supporting this company.

People still support Mierce Miniatures even though they are owned by the guy who ran Maelstrom Games who scammed hundreds of people out of tens of thousands of pounds worth of product, me included...

Like any population of people, a subset of gamers are a selfcentric and impulsive bunch. If you offer a big enough discount or a bauble shiny enough, I've found plenty won't mind rewarding bad behavior for their own potential benefit until that bad behavior happens to be directed at them. YMMV.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 krazynadechukr wrote:

My paypal is funded by my (Bank) Visa, which has refunded me many times (I can report fraud for up to 18 months from purchase) no questions asked. If Paypal fails me, I call the bank, if they fail me, I call the Visa number. There's many ways around Paypal policies, and after being with them over 15 years and 5000+ transactions (as a business entity on paypal), 99.999% of the time they have always sided with me. http://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/mt/2014/09/The_More_You_Know/lead_large.png?GE2DGMBRGUZTANJRFYYA====

I'm glad you have those extra protections as well as such a large purchase history to fall back on. The latter of course provides you leeway that less frequent purchasers wouldn't necessarily get easily. I had a friend who also went to his bank and bypassed paypal to get around their policies... and paypal didn't like it one bit and threatened to close his account if he did it again. YMMV. In any case, I'm glad you're covered. With Prodos, you might need the protection.

 krazynadechukr wrote:
(didn't even know it was that bad actually), and if I were in your shoes, I'd be upset too.

The "Beasts of War" effect in full swing.

Joyboozer wrote:

 krazynadechukr wrote:
(didn't even know it was that bad actually), and if I were in your shoes, I'd be upset too.

The "Beasts of War" effect in full swing.

I don't know what that even means. Anyway, I wont buy a Ford 'cause of the Pinto exploding, won't eat at Carl's 'cause they donate to the KKK, and if I get burnt by Prodos then I wont deal with them again. I'll get my money back though!

Here is paypal receipt screen info -

Description Unit price Qty Amount
AvP The Hunt Begins Second Edition
Item# 291 £48.99 GBP 1 £48.99 GBP
Subtotal £48.99 GBP
Shipping and handling £15.00 GBP
Total £63.99 GBP
Payment £63.99 GBP
Payment sent to service@prodos.co.uk
From amount $82.11 USD
To amount £63.99 GBP
Exchange rate: 1 USD = 0.779362 GBP

Issues with this transaction?
You have 180 days from the date of the transaction to open a dispute in the Resolution Center.
Questions? Go to the Help Center at www.paypal.com/help.
RIGHT TO REFUND
You, the customer, are entitled to a refund of the money...

Prodos says I'll get it on or before March 27th, if not I'll put in a dispute on the 28th and refunded within 10 days of that.

 His Master's Voice wrote:
Well, good luck to ya, brave soul.

You'll need it.

Nah, he pre-ordered it, which is a binding sales contract covered by a multitude of laws.

It's that Kickstarter "this is not a pre-order" language that lets these companies get away with ridiculous stuff like this. I love the Alien franchise, but I haven't bought the game for this specific reason.


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 MrDwhitey wrote:
If I get it, it'll be from Firestorm or Wayland.

Not direct.

I've been waiting a month for some Perry miniatures I ordered from Wayland (on January 23rd) because I mistakenly thought that "Available to Order" would mean something silly like they had the product to send me. Turns out I missed the fine print that was 2-3 weeks just to get it, and then ship it to me, lol.

But, they're a discount retailer, so I guess there is an adage about getting what you paid for. Though, that would be nice. Getting what I paid for, lol.

Checked their site just now, now they have added the "Restock Expected" language to the products.

Beasts of War promote the hell out of anything and frown upon negative discussion as though it's just "shade". Makes it hard for consumers to know which companies are the good guys.

 MadCowCrazy wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
I'll admit I'm amazed people are still supporting this company.

People still support Mierce Miniatures even though they are owned by the guy who ran Maelstrom Games who scammed hundreds of people out of tens of thousands of pounds worth of product, me included...

And we'll never know if Maelstrom would have dug themselves out of debt, or if you personally would have received your order after they took money from someone's next order, if Wayland hadn't forced them into bankruptcy.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 MadCowCrazy wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
I'll admit I'm amazed people are still supporting this company.

People still support Mierce Miniatures even though they are owned by the guy who ran Maelstrom Games who scammed hundreds of people out of tens of thousands of pounds worth of product, me included...

And we'll never know if Maelstrom would have dug themselves out of debt, or if you personally would have received your order after they took money from someone's next order, if Wayland hadn't forced them into bankruptcy.

Wayland offered to honour every outstanding order that Maelstrom had as they offered to buy Maelstrom. Maelstrom refused so Wayland bought their debt and claimed it. Maelstrom pretty much liquidated everything so that Wayland would get nothing and in doing so also screwed over ALLOT of people.
So everyone would have gotten their orders if Maelstrom hadn't been so bitchy about it.

 MadCowCrazy wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 MadCowCrazy wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
I'll admit I'm amazed people are still supporting this company.

People still support Mierce Miniatures even though they are owned by the guy who ran Maelstrom Games who scammed hundreds of people out of tens of thousands of pounds worth of product, me included...

And we'll never know if Maelstrom would have dug themselves out of debt, or if you personally would have received your order after they took money from someone's next order, if Wayland hadn't forced them into bankruptcy.

Wayland offered to honour every outstanding order that Maelstrom had as they offered to buy Maelstrom. Maelstrom refused so Wayland bought their debt and claimed it. Maelstrom pretty much liquidated everything so that Wayland would get nothing and in doing so also screwed over ALLOT of people.
So everyone would have gotten their orders if Maelstrom hadn't been so bitchy about it.

Also mealstrom were planning on screwing everyone long before Wayland intervened, you can trace the setup of Mierce and other shell companies months before they folded and also the sale of all rights and equipment from mealstrom to mierce for a nominal amount.

For the last months of business mealstrom were taking pre orders for stock they knew they could not get as suppliers (GW for example) had started cutting them off.

There bussiness strategy for the last 12 months was to take pre orders and use that money to buy stock for the previous set of pre orders and then take more pre orders to pay for those pre orders. They at some point hit a tipping point with not enough cash to honour the pre orders taken at that point the sales started in a desperate bid.to claw back some cash.(Sound familiar)

It was in the middle of all that when mealstrom was asset stripped by the managment to other companies in family members names as well.as his(according to one staff member the boss cleared his mortgage) hard to be certain where it ended as no financials werel reported for the final years and I missed the court hearing.

Joyboozer wrote:
Beasts of War promote the hell out of anything and frown upon negative discussion as though it's just "shade". Makes it hard for consumers to know which companies are the good guys.

This is so true. And it was so obvious to anyone on this KS. They're either ignorant of the KS problems and too lazy to actually read into it or just don't care and want Prodos' games on the site and youtube channel.

Can't wait for them to gush over this 2nd Edition without mentioning the KS problems at all.

Not sure what Maelstrom is, but did they do a KS like AVP and it fell through?

 montanhas18 wrote:

I'm a KS backer (one of the "lucky" ones, "already" got most of my stuff).

I saw this pre-order and asked two questions:

- Are the tiles compatible with 1st edition (the fittings)? Because that would make it more interesting for 1st buyers. And the thickness, 'cause the 1st edition has two thickness. At least for tokens.

I asked a similar question about compatibility to 1st edition (specifically the tiles and miniatures - where they were the same scale). Prodos said yes. Everything is compatible and same scale.

 Vash108 wrote:
Not sure what Maelstrom is, but did they do a KS like AVP and it fell through?

No, this pre-dated major crowdfunding campaigns. Maelstrom was an online retailer in the UK. They racked up a huge amount of debt, and at some point they basically turned into a near-Ponzi scheme where they couldn't afford to pay for this month's pre-orders without getting next month's pre-order money. The on-going issues with payment resulted in many suppliers cutting them off, which then worsened their ability to get orders. Wayland Games ended up buying a goodly chunk of debt from one supplier and reportedly offered to buy Maelstrom Games. They declined, Wayland called in the debt which Maelstrom couldn't pay and they then declared bankruptcy. Mysteriously, a large amount of assets (IP and equipment) had been sold off to other companies owned by the principals of Maelstrom. Mierce was one such company, and is still run by the same person to my knowledge. Nothing strictly illegal appears to have occurred, but that this transfer was happening when the ship was steering directly at the rocks makes many people suspicious that at the tail-end of their run the store was much more of a scam than an honest attempt to do business.

Old Dakka thread on the topic: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/464643.page

Prodos did try a similar "re-branding" with Archon as a different company, but that fell apart pretty quickly when people started probing into it. When they know their brand is so toxic that they conceal it on a KS project they're running themselves, it does make me wonder why they don't just try to fix their mistakes instead of trying to obfuscate things. That they don't fix things should make folks very leery, IMO.

 Vash108 wrote:
Not sure what Maelstrom is, but did they do a KS like AVP and it fell through?

Maelstrom was one of the larger retailers of miniature games/models in the UK and Wayland Games biggest competition. As mentioned above they started having financial problems which caused problems for one of the UKs biggest miniature importer as they weren't getting paid for bought product. Wayland saw a chance to get rid of their biggest competition so bought the debt and demanded Maelstrom pay. Maelstrom countered by liquidating pretty much everything and sold all company assets etc to other companies owned by the owner of Maelstrom. They took pre-orders for things they knew they would never fulfill and used that money to boost the other companies.

If Maelstrom would have done the honourable thing then Wayland Games would now own the whole Mierce Miniatures line and everyone would have gotten what Maelstrom owed them as Wayland said they would honour any outstanding order from Maelstrom.

Instead Maelstrom screwed everyone over, the reason you can't use paypal to order anything from Mierce Miniatures is because paypal refuses to work with companies who are run by people known to have scammed customers in the past. If you email Mierce about it they state they've had problems with paypal in the past and don't like their system...

So which is worse? Maelstrom or Prodos? I'd say what Maelstrom did is far worse and there is a chance people might get their stuff from Prodos but that's still like digging through doodoo trying to find your pre-order...

I wouldn't trust Beasts of War with anything, they got caught buying page views or some such a few years ago and they were pretty gakky with how they just left those 2 other guys that used to work for them. They suddenly got like 10k views from some asian country in order to jump up on the "most popular" charts of some site.
Don't remember exactly but perhaps it was facebook likes or something. Either way I stopped watching them after this so don't know much of what they've been up to these past few years. From this thread it seems they are promoting the AVP 2nd season or something. Something something something lack of integrity or something...

 krazynadechukr wrote:
if I get burnt by Prodos then I wont deal with them again. I'll get my money back though!

Here is paypal receipt screen info

You'll be using that. The Space Crusade pre-order was meant to ship In August last year... and the only update we've heard about it is that they've got a new piece of art for the box and a few cards. That art has taken them -SEVEN MONTHS-, y'know... seven months after the so-called release date.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

And we'll never know if Maelstrom would have dug themselves out of debt

 lord_blackfang wrote:

dug themselves out of debt

 lord_blackfang wrote:

debt

They sank due to dodgy business and dismissive attitudes towards their customers. Prodos have distinct whiff of the same attitude. but as long as people don't care because the sculpts are nice, then these chancers will continue to reap the rewards.

If something smells off, would you take a bite and see how it tastes?

Give an old meaning to BGG'ers who say KS is a pre-order system.

Sheck2 wrote:

 montanhas18 wrote:

- Are the tiles compatible with 1st edition (the fittings)? Because that would make it more interesting for 1st buyers. And the thickness, 'cause the 1st edition has two thickness. At least for tokens.

I asked a similar question about compatibility to 1st edition (specifically the tiles and miniatures - where they were the same scale). Prodos said yes. Everything is compatible and same scale.

I missed your question :( Thanks, that's a plus for sure.

I added the game to my wishlist... from a online store, eventually. On a Black Friday or the like.

 montanhas18 wrote:


I added the game to my wishlist... from a online store, eventually. On a Black Friday or the like.

As I've probably mentioned before... Wayland keep Prodos... when they can get the stock. When they can't they've always offered me a refund.

I see that warzone actually still shows preorder "shipping June-July 2016." Never paid attention to that. Glad that was pointed out.

Yikes.

I cxld my paypal transaction, instant refund.

I'll wait for ebay or online store.

 krazynadechukr wrote:
I see that warzone actually still shows preorder "shipping June-July 2016." Never paid attention to that. Glad that was pointed out.

Yikes.

I cxld my paypal transaction, instant refund.

I'll wait for ebay or online store.

Space Crusade also still shows as a pre-order, with a July 2016 ship date.

I'd not kept up with the Space Crusade offering as since Ive been burned on the AVP KS, PRODOS are not getting £1 more from me. Only when I recieve the stuff I ordered over 3 years ago will I consider.

Can't deliver AVP to people who gave them their £££. Now can't deliver another Game. Worst Company ever, people should approach with caution. You'll probably find they don't have the AVP v2 ready to go yet, they are just taking pre-orders to fund something else rather than the AVP v2. Whatever they are taking £££ for, it's certainly not to ship out the now out of date AVP Game to KS Backers.

 CptJake wrote:

 krazynadechukr wrote:
I see that warzone actually still shows preorder "shipping June-July 2016." Never paid attention to that. Glad that was pointed out.

Yikes.

I cxld my paypal transaction, instant refund.

I'll wait for ebay or online store.

Space Crusade also still shows as a pre-order, with a July 2016 ship date.

That's what I was refering to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In my book when it says pre-order and ships xx-xx-xxxx I assume that's factual. I'm not too sure about Prodos any longer.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I mistakenly thought that "Available to Order" would mean something silly like they had the product to send me

For some reason, this confuses a lot of people. I have done an enormous amount of business with Wayland since Brexit and am 100% satisfied with their service. (That includes orders that have taken over a month to ship - somehow I never confused In Stock with Available to Order. I hope the phrase "Restock Expected" will help out with this issue.) I ordered almost all of my AvP figs from Wayland in one go. It took 30 days for them to fill the order. It's worth the wait, not having to deal with Prodos directly.

The weak state of the pound is what made them attractive. However, there's a certain lack of clarity when you use terminology like "Available to Order" when virtually no other online store uses such phrasing. The problem was probably in how I came to their site, which meant there were no adjacent items that said "In Stock", signifying a differentiation from "We'll eventually get it, we're sure."

The new addition offers far more clarity.

As far as ordering AvP through Wayland, it means little to Prodos. They still got their wholesale price for the product, so you paid them either way. Avoiding AvP hasn't been a question of price, it has been avoiding putting money in their pockets. If my LGS ever dumps its lingering stock of the 1st edition, maybe I'll pick it up, since at that point I'm helping them clear inventory, rather than creating demand for more Prodos products.