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 Frankenberry wrote:
Watched a campaign playthrough and it looked fun. Cheesy writing, characters ruined via stupid design choices, but overall looked like something I could see myself playing.

Not for 60 bucks though. feth that. The fact that the dev's even thought to make this game 60 bucks is a joke in itself. Although given how AAA games are produced and launched these days, I can't say I'm surprised.

This is Sega right? That means they'll probably have hundreds of dollars worth of DLC content cut out of the game or to fix it and to be sold off at a later date .

I'm unsure about the AAA GW title example. I think Total War Warhammer was really good. It was just so unexpectedly massive. If i wasn't playing xcom 2 non-stop i'd probably play that instead. Also i've never been that into Total War games even if Warhammer Fantasy is one of my favorite series ever (shame it died though).

I'm mixed about the issue as it mostly seems the negative reviews are saying 'If you don't like starcraft or MOBA you will hate this game otherwise you'll love it". I really liked Dawn of War 1 myself as massed units and base building seemed preferred. The only faction i liked in Dawn of War 2 was imperial guard and they only added that in the last expansion. Dem leman russ executioners though (so sexy). Really wishing they'd get all the factions added again like dawn of war 1 mostly had. Sadly we'll probably never see dark eldar again though if they do show off nids maybe genestealer cults will be added in even if they add them as an NPC faction like guard tends to be before they're playable.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
Watched a campaign playthrough and it looked fun. Cheesy writing, characters ruined via stupid design choices, but overall looked like something I could see myself playing.

Not for 60 bucks though. feth that. The fact that the dev's even thought to make this game 60 bucks is a joke in itself. Although given how AAA games are produced and launched these days, I can't say I'm surprised.

This is Sega right? That means they'll probably have hundreds of dollars worth of DLC content cut out of the game or to fix it and to be sold off at a later date .

I'm unsure about the AAA GW title example. I think Total War Warhammer was really good. It was just so unexpectedly massive. If i wasn't playing xcom 2 non-stop i'd probably play that instead. Also i've never been that into Total War games even if Warhammer Fantasy is one of my favorite series ever (shame it died though).

I'm mixed about the issue as it mostly seems the negative reviews are saying 'If you don't like starcraft or MOBA you will hate this game otherwise you'll love it". I really liked Dawn of War 1 myself as massed units and base building seemed preferred. The only faction i liked in Dawn of War 2 was imperial guard and they only added that in the last expansion. Dem leman russ executioners though (so sexy). Really wishing they'd get all the factions added again like dawn of war 1 mostly had. Sadly we'll probably never see dark eldar again though if they do show off nids maybe genestealer cults will be added in even if they add them as an NPC faction like guard tends to be before they're playable.

Oh, I figured any content would be released in massive waves of DLC that nickle and dime players. I actually wouldn't be surprised if they released a 'dlc' with an army editor or something down the line - given the love it got in the previous titles, it makes sense.

And maybe not every AAA title was launched poorly, I'll admit that. But of the last five years or so, the number of AAA titles released with massive issues and obvious cash-grab schemes has certainly risen. I'm surprised that there wasn't some Day 1 DLC for DOW3 honestly, some sort of 'hey you can buy the Chaos faction at launch! Only 14.99!'.

A lot of the reviews are pointing at the MOBA bits present; like tall grass to hide units (not a MOBA invention, but hey, people never remember that)that shouldn't be able to be hidden, like the fething Wraithknight. The campaign struck me as an attempt to mesh DoW1 and DoW2 without doing either very well. The abilities that characters have are so...cartoony and over the top. At least in the previous games, characters weren't these comic-style heroes with magic 'win all scenario' skills - if anything they were force multipliers, units meant to handle a specific set of circumstances - not a catch all for a lack of army.

I dunno, I think the idea that the game feels rushed and poorly planned is the best descriptor right now. It's a shame too because I was super excited about it.

Wrapped up the campaign just now, there's a post-credit stinger with a first look at the next faction.

I'll put it in spoiler tags...

So don't be a gakker and spoil it for others...

3...

2...

1...

Ooh that spoiler. So good.

Did not expect it, there was a hint dropped in the game as to the partial origins of the McGuffin everybody is fighting over, but it was a good unveil and a good sequel / DLC hook.

Whether or not it will deliver though..

My final thoughts after having played through the game quite a bit: It's okay, but not really mind blowing in terms of story, mechanics or delivery. The micromanagement is tedious to say the least, something that really doesn't work with the larger armies the game is promoting. In Dawn of War 2 I didn't mind the micromanaging, as there you've only got three or so squads to look out for, this on the other hand.. gah.

At least the Orks are Orky, the characters are all deliciously British and the Knights are so damned hot I'm playing this game without a shirt.

That's an odd choice for the next faction but sure why not. Not like the previous games so it's appreciated.

The good.
Most of the voice acting is well done, aside from one (see below) and so full of epic British! One can only get so full of glee when Solaria belts out "Where kings lead, knights follow!" with those regal tones. Rowrrrrrrr.

Orks in particular have a fun feel and vibe to them, bringing back some of the laughs usually associated with them. Simple things like calling Ronahn "Ronnie" all the time, or building a super gun whose secondary fire does nothing but shriek out amusing insults towards the enemy in an attempt to demoralise them. WAAAGH!!! banners play loud rock music on activation, WAAAGH!!! abilities, when properly triggered are accompanied by fireworks (it works in context ) and the scrap mechanic is a fun one that means that Orks can crank out units almost anywhere on the map. They are still serious business, but at least they have some of their humour and colour back again. Now if only we could get Kaptin Bluddflag in this game as well..

Some of the themed single player maps, like Varlock Keep and the space stations look neat, have a constant loop of PA's in the background ("Warning: plasma exhausts are NOT meant to charge lasguns") and really look like they belong in 40k. Beats the usual "brown desert world" or "grey ruined city" scapes of the previous games.

Also, did I mention I really like Imperial Knights? This game has two in them! While a bit on the slow side movement wise, they certainly look and feel the part, plus handle completely differently from one another, making them not feel like they are rehashes of each other. There is also something very pleasing about spawning one in a multiplayer game, having it move up to the enemy and have your opponent remark "I hear these large thuds headings towards me, what's going on?"

There are bits of the story that are good and it all fits together with all of the previous games, including that really gakky one, to craft the bigger picture we have now.



The doctrine and elite ability system is an interesting one that gives some neat bonuses to your units. Not stuff like "+0,4% damage increase to ranged attacks" but stuff like "Whirlwind rockets now spray napalm upon detonation" or "Ork units heal upon gathering scrap" which while not completely game breaking, can make quite the difference in some instances. There are some gakky ones in there for sure, but overall these are handy tools that can buff certain units beyond their regular capability. Best of all, the system is also available for use in the single player campaign.



The bad.
As said before, the amount of micro-management in this game is tedious! It was an aspect I did not mind when playing Dawn of War 2, when you only several four three man squads to faff about with, but with larger armies it just doesn't work as well. Especially not against the AI, which will sometimes ruthlessly exploit its ability to move units out of the way of triggered abilities, because these take time to activate. Selecting everything and sending it over in a single zerg rush certainly doesn't help either, unless you lack imagination like me and just build one unit over and over again, pair that with the right doctrines and send those off in an attack move at the enemy. Nothing that cannot be fixed with say, a large blob of souped-up Deff Dredds or a gakload of Wraithguard led by a Wraithlord.

With regards to the campaign, as I said before, I hate puzzle maps, or ones that require a very specific way of resolving them or suffering the consequences. So feth you Eldar missions, feth you and your fething "disable the alarms" conditions. You witches. Also feth you for having to build a mission around teleporting your base from plateau to plateau as you progress, with your base dying without warning (and thus getting a hard game over) because I ported it somewhere it was supposed to go, but you didn't fething telegraph to me that I was supposed to move it again.

There is also the lack of greatness with the campaign. Maybe I'm spoiled by the system hopping of Dawn of War 2, but this game tries hard to be epic, but ends up feeling rather small and contained. Less space opera and more monster of the week, which may be due to this all taking place on two planets and then some, instead of a small, but diverse system like in Dawn of War 2. Granted, that game did recycle the gak out of its limited palette of maps, but hopping from planet to planet with your small band of Marines rushing to contain the situation felt a lot more epic than what this game tried to pull off.

There's also the final mission.. bit of a groaner the way they went with the story, but I guess this appeals more to the non-die-hard fans of the franchise who don't know any better. I guess it's also something of a homage to the Last Stand mode from the second game. It does make me wonder who the writer for the campaign of this game is.

The current Gabriel Angelos is a rather large ham, with extra brick in his teeth on the side. I'd also love to hear why they made him the size of a Primarch. I know he got squashed in the previous game and had to be rebuilt, but this is a bit more than that, he's almost the same size as a Dreadnought now! And for those wondering, no, you cannot unlock the Deathwatch skin as of yet, the only thing Relic had to say about it was, it would be a future reward. So either on disc DLC orrrrrr hopefully, a free something extra.

The skulls system as a whole. Rather annoying and for me feels off on way too many levels, plus I'm sure certain members of these forums here are beating their meat raw to this, if only because of what is used as the currency to unlock everything. You only earn it through the play of multiplayer games and the odd levelling of elites, so if you want that shiny doctrine or unlock a certain unit for multiplayer games, better start saving up and not waste it on junk doctrines or the like.



The ugly?
This is something quite a few Relic RTS games tend to do, which is take away all control from the game to show you something cinematic or story related going on. Other games do it as well, but for some reason I get really pissed off whenever one of their games does it, probably because it will also rearrange your units, or forcibly move them to another point when done.

The fixed camera angle (unless I missed out how to fiddle with the camera) is also annoying, as some maps have overhangs and the like under which enemy units can sometimes end up "hiding" and they are a bugger to get out of there. Some of these models look great, so the ability to zoom in while ingame and pan around is sorely missed.

As for what lies further down the road.. there's no season pass strangely enough, though with this game I would've passed up on it, as the core of the game is most certainly geared towards multiplayer sadly. There was mention somewhere of more multiplayer modes, so there's that at least and well.. there's still the chance that they'll just release other factions as multiplayer add-ons like they did with Company of Heroes 2. Or maybe they'll start selling skulls through an online store as well (unless this is already an option somewhere). The spoilered teaser a few posts up did surprise me, but it makes me wonder what it might entail. Another "full" campaign, or just a quickie made up of puzzle maps and rehashed skirmish maps.

For those interested in the achievements, of which there are 81, sorry to say, but they really half-assed ones..
* 18 for completing the campaign on casual difficulty (which is bugged for casual right now, the achievement for mission 17 displays the wrong text and for some reason upon completion it did not trigger the "Great job! You completed the entire campaign on Casual difficulty." achievement)
* 18 for completing the campaign on normal difficulty
* 18 for completing the campaign on hard difficulty
* 27 for pumping your various elites to level 10 (which all contain the same text "Level-up Elite to the max. Great job!")



My personal conclusion is that all in all, it's an okay game, certainly not the pile of gak some make it out to be, but certainly not as great as my personal favourite from the series, Dawn of War 2. However, for me personally it's a fun 40k game whose release coincided for me nicely with the hype of the upcoming 8th edition, which should keep me busy until that hits. There are certainly more worse games with the 40k IP out there at the moment, looking at you.. Deathwing and Inquisitor - Martyr. Ugh.

Did another video about the Elites:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
That's an odd choice for the next faction but sure why not. Not like the previous games so it's appreciated.

I don't think so because

Same could be said of the other race introduced into that game, which also has quite a large following.

Not at the time it was made. But regardless since I haven't purchased the game yet..

How are the new Elites?

I don't know about everyone else, but I actually like DoW3 quite a bit.

It's not perfect, but if you liked DoW1, I expect you'd like DoW3.

The campaign is a bit predictable, and I would have preferred one campaign for each race, rather than one that involved all 3. But I guess multiple RTS campaigns are uncommon anymore (SC2 took 3 games to get 3 campaigns).

But the campaign is fun, and about as long as DoW1/2.

MP is also quite fun. The MOBA elements are honestly extremely minor, and I think are absolutely a positive improvement. They just serve as rally points and to prevent you from being zerg rushed or crushed after losing an early skirmish.

Basically, the MP games all but have to escalate until the point where both sides are rolling out big, heavy units and massive armies, and it just becomes a gigantic slug fest. Which I think is great.

The 3v3 MP is a blast. A bit of a mess, but fun.

The elite system is pretty good too, and has a fair amount of depth. My biggest complaint is that some elites seem not-that elite. Meganobz, terminators, stormboyz, deathwatch, warp spyders, striking scorpions, all take up 1 of 3 elite slots, and can't be built otherwise.

Overall, I like it. I'm not going to get as much out of it as I did from TW:Warhammer, but it's a solid game, and I'm hoping it gets some expansions.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
It's not perfect, but if you liked DoW1, I expect you'd like DoW3.

This is a line of argument I see a lot, but just don't understand. I think DOW1 has aged poorly, but I'd still take it over what DOW3 is offering any day of the week. Why? Because while the base building is far more intrusive than in DOW3, it offers real battlefield control with squad mechanics and loadouts, a morale system, cover and terrain advantages that are far more in depth than DOW3's high ground mechanic, heavy cover and hiding spots. In general it's just a better 40k experience which feels a lot more tied in with the universe it's trying to recreate rather than a fairly core and simplistic game with a veneer of paint over it.

DOW3's an absolutely fine game, but that's about it. It's pretty hard to cock up an RTS though, unless there are serious bugs or balancing issues, which DOW3 has neither of (outside of arguably cheap Elite units). That's what's more disappointing to me than anything else in DOW3 - that it's so painfully average and so rarely shows flickers of promise, with only a few really interesting mechanics, which are also not fleshed out enough to make a difference.

Again, the question that buries DOW3 in my eyes is "why would you play it over Starcraft if you like that type of strategy game, and why would you play it over DOW1/2 if you like the universe?"

There are a few things in DoW1 that still bug me to this day.. I still Abhor what they did to firing on the move in Dark Crusade by dropping it from 50% to 10%. Thus making assault cannons on Dreadnoughts pointless and allowing Eldar a massive benefit to their Fleet of Foot ability.

Eldar in general was absolutely broken. Dawn of Eldar jokes aside they really needed a nerf and it seemed like the developers enjoyed buffing them while destroying counters (Why did you ruin my Basalisks and other artillery! ) Also the move to make a tech tree rather then DoW1's original method of allowing hard counters in every tier, as well as destroying the CSM's ability to get all four weapons for some strange reason.

I still enjoy DoW1 in some measure, but the balance team was abysmal.

Relic has put out a blog post with some stats now that we're almost a week in now: https://www.dawnofwar.com/article/dawn-of-war-3-launch-stats

Heh, that's cute. I approve!

Not surprised Zappnoggin is the Elite of choice. His early game Scrap Blasts could deal with swarms easily enough

Friend of mine told me about this new Steam workshop mod that allows you to take control of heroes in game and battle it out! This looks like the beginning of Last Stand, something I wanted in this game which wasn't added. This mod is in the early stages but I think it's on the correct path to greatness, plus you can have it as PVP! Hope you enjoy the video.

TB has done his WTF is.. of Dawn of War 3:




Haven't seen it yet, but so long as he doesn't hammer on about his fluff knowledge, it should be a good review / look at the thing.

I only jumped to the conclusion since I didn't have 50 minutes when I first saw it. Not sure if there is a "TB gets it slightly wrong with 40k" episode in there, but will check later.

He can be quite off about the fluff from time to time, really giving a vibe of "WHAT IS THIS, I DON'T EVEN" of someone who claims to know a lot, but has been out of it for quite some time now.

Wait... He has a massive Sega Boycott, why is he reviewing DoW3? Can't exactly view it right yet.

 BrookM wrote:
He can be quite off about the fluff from time to time, really giving a vibe of "WHAT IS THIS, I DON'T EVEN" of someone who claims to know a lot, but has been out of it for quite some time now.

Any examples?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Wait... He has a massive Sega Boycott, why is he reviewing DoW3? Can't exactly view it right yet.

He addresses that in the video, basically he said Sega's had quite a few interesting releases as of late and that it would be unfair to the consumer to not to report on them so he's removing the ban. Plus he's come to terms with the idea that Sega is probably never going to apologise or

acknowledge the copyright abuse they've done to him, that he's just going to have to accept that.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Wait... He has a massive Sega Boycott, why is he reviewing DoW3? Can't exactly view it right yet.

He's also a massive fan of the franchise, so that may also be something.

He doesn't talk much fluff in the video, no. It's a good video.

 General Annoyance wrote:


This is a line of argument I see a lot, but just don't understand. I think DOW1 has aged poorly, but I'd still take it over what DOW3 is offering any day of the week. Why? Because while the base building is far more intrusive than in DOW3, it offers real battlefield control with squad mechanics and loadouts, a morale system, cover and terrain advantages that are far more in depth than DOW3's high ground mechanic, heavy cover and hiding spots. In general it's just a better 40k experience which feels a lot more tied in with the universe it's trying to recreate rather than a fairly core and simplistic game with a veneer of paint over it.

DOW3's an absolutely fine game, but that's about it. It's pretty hard to cock up an RTS though, unless there are serious bugs or balancing issues, which DOW3 has neither of (outside of arguably cheap Elite units). That's what's more disappointing to me than anything else in DOW3 - that it's so painfully average and so rarely shows flickers of promise, with only a few really interesting mechanics, which are also not fleshed out enough to make a difference.

Again, the question that buries DOW3 in my eyes is "why would you play it over Starcraft if you like that type of strategy game, and why would you play it over DOW1/2 if you like the universe?"

I'll warrant that there aren't many unit upgrades in 3, like there were in 1, but just about every single unit has an ability you can use for greater battlefield control. Grenades, dashes, buffs, debuffs of all kind.

Morale is something I really liked about DoW1, and I am a bit sorry to see it go. But cover and terrain, IIRC, in DoW1 had a somewhat limited effect.

And I'm not sure I'd agree that DoW is a simplistic game. There's a lot of flexibility and nuances with the elite choices, and a lot of mastery to be had by managing your unit's abilities more effectively. If anything, I'd probably call it over complicated, mostly due to the amount of micromanagement needed over your units to be effective. Especially as orks, with their scrap mechanic.

But to answer your last question regarding why would you play it over starcraft - do you ask yourself of any RTS that comes out, "why would I play a new RTS when I can play starcraft?" - the answer is, I suppose, because it's a different game? Same goes for playing it over DoW1/2, though it really does play very similarly to DoW1.

I mean, don't get me wrong. DoW3 isn't GOTY 10/10 best game EVAR, but I feel as if too many aren't even giving it a fair consideration. It's decent. Is it better than DoW1? Eh, maybe not, but it's new, and fun, and worth a look. Least in my opinion.

I have a large number of complaints about this game but I think one of the key issues is that it is too... arcade-y. It has a ton of flashy FX and high polycount models (even if I dislike the new less gritty artstyle), but it lacks substance (only one game mode to DoW2's 3 and DoW1's who knows how many, low map count, low faction count...)

It can be expanded, sure, but the other games were too. DoW3 is weaker right out of the gate. As a fervent modder I pay a lot of attention to what lies beneath the shiny special effects and wacky Ork voice acting, and I don't like what I see - animations that look over a decade old, for example, and overall really a worrying focus on breadth over depth (not actually dissimilar to the tragic downfall of Spore).

The game relies too much on its spices and forgets to have proper meat. For this reason I strongly worry for the game's longevity.

The game will not last long and the blip on the radar will soon be gone again, especially not with such a hard focus on a very limited multiplayer mode that feels unfinished. As TB pointed out, this seems very much geared towards competitive eSports, but chances of this being the next big thing for it are laughably small.

It remains to be seen what Relic has planned for the game to keep it in the spotlight. DLC, both paid and unpaid, will be the deal breaker in the long run. One would hope for more of the latter, given the retail price of the game and a severe lack of content thus far..

At least two things are planned right now, one involving the teaser shown post credits, the other being something involving the Deathwatch, as Gabriel's model has a third, as of yet locked away skin, showing him in Deathwatch livery. Or maybe the two are part of the same thing, who knows?

Oh, I'll definitely say DoW3 is better than DoW1, myself. It's not as obnoxiously clunky, base building was more intuitive and less intrusive, units don't march in tragically perfect square formations, and so on and so forth.

I just don't think it's better than DoW2.

But I say that with a caveat of course-- I haven't played the single player campaign yet for DoW3, I have only played the multiplayer beta, which was incredibly limited. Yet even that alone was better than DoW1. DoW1 was a decent enough game for its time, but games have moved on and gotten better since then.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I'll warrant that there aren't many unit upgrades in 3, like there were in 1, but just about every single unit has an ability you can use for greater battlefield control. Grenades, dashes, buffs, debuffs of all kind.

Perhaps that is so, but it certainly doesn't feel like positioning of your troops matters outside of heavy cover. You could argue for high ground advantages too, but I couldn't find many places in my time on the Beta where that helped turn the tide of combat.

Morale is something I really liked about DoW1, and I am a bit sorry to see it go. But cover and terrain, IIRC, in DoW1 had a somewhat limited effect.

It did, yes. At least it was there though, in proper, and certainly had more practicality than heavy cover in DOW3

And I'm not sure I'd agree that DoW is a simplistic game. There's a lot of flexibility and nuances with the elite choices, and a lot of mastery to be had by managing your unit's abilities more effectively. If anything, I'd probably call it over complicated, mostly due to the amount of micromanagement needed over your units to be effective. Especially as orks, with their scrap mechanic.

So a deckbuilding micromanagement RTS then, aka. simplistic in all the wrong areas, complicated in all the wrong areas. Much like the TT game.

But to answer your last question regarding why would you play it over starcraft - do you ask yourself of any RTS that comes out, "why would I play a new RTS when I can play starcraft?" - the answer is, I suppose, because it's a different game? Same goes for playing it over DoW1/2, though it really does play very similarly to DoW1.

I do not, no, but put two and two together and you have that kind of question. I'm personally not a fan of Starcraft type RTS, which should be blatantly obvious by now, but it must have some merit to be loved by so many. As we have determined before, comparing DOW3 to Starcraft positively or negatively is not far from the truth, hence why I ask "why play it over Starcraft?" - the game that is cheaper to pick up, has a bigger community, plenty of mod support already and a fairly similar premise to combat. The only reason you'd say no is because you love 40k, but DOW3 doesn't even get that right; lackluster voice acting and direction compared to the last instalment, lazy cutscenes and story buildup, and far too many lore breakers to ignore for the sake of gameplay.

That's the biggest point there that I'm trying to stress; the guys behind DOW3 wanted to make a Starcraft-esc strategy game combined with COH2's doctrines and a new Elite system. Sounds great, I guess. But why did they have to use the 40k licence to achieve that?

I mean, don't get me wrong. DoW3 isn't GOTY 10/10 best game EVAR, but I feel as if too many aren't even giving it a fair consideration. It's decent. Is it better than DoW1? Eh, maybe not, but it's new, and fun, and worth a look. Least in my opinion.

I've given it fair consideration, in the face of people who'd rather have me shut up for no good reason at all because apparently I hate this game. I don't; it's absolutely fine. But that hurts much more than the idea of a new DOW game being complete crap if you ask me.

Perhaps it does beat DOW1, but the fact that there's doubt that it could beat a clunky and rusty RTS that's over a decade old is pretty telling of its overall value to strategy gamers and 40k fans. Keep in mind that the RTS genre is a stagnant genre, perhaps with more "classics" than any other genre out there in gaming, reason being it's hard to innovate properly in the RTS genre without either doing more of the same or screwing it up. DOW3 seems to fall into the former, unfortunately.

 Melissia wrote:
Oh, I'll definitely say DoW3 is better than DoW1, myself. It's not as obnoxiously clunky, base building was more intuitive and less intrusive, units don't march in tragically perfect square formations, and so on and so forth.

I just don't think it's better than DoW2.

But I say that with a caveat of course-- I haven't played the single player campaign yet for DoW3, I have only played the multiplayer beta, which was incredibly limited. Yet even that alone was better than DoW1. DoW1 was a decent enough game for its time, but games have moved on and gotten better since then.

I can see your point in terms of mechanics, which are well over dated in DOW1. However, DOW1 carried the charm and atmosphere of the 40k universe to a greater extent than DOW3, and that is very important for a 40k based game to do; if you can't nail the universe like DOW2 or at least get fairly close with DOW1 (we'll forget about Boreale's Metal Boxes for a minute) why do you need the 40k licence to make your game into something worth playing?