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From what Ive seen, heard and read here I think I will skip DoW3. Sadly Relic seems to only have survived in name. Its been quite downhill since CoH and DoW2.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
From what Ive seen, heard and read here I think I will skip DoW3. Sadly Relic seems to only have survived in name. Its been quite downhill since CoH and DoW2.

Quite is an understatement if I ever heard one, but yes. Relic of old is long, long gone and instead we get games like DoW 3

I hate the overly colourful almost cartoonist art style of the game. I Much preferred Dow 2.

In fact I quite liked Dow 2, being able to level up and customise squads skills and loadouts, almost like tabletop 40k. The only thing I truly disliked was how they scaled the size of the units down to combat squad size.

A scaled up Dow 2 would have been awesome, but with more focus on macro management rather than micro.

That said , its on my wishlist and I might get it in a year when the price drops by half to £20, even if just out of nostalgia and a desire to play more 40k.

 Trondheim wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
From what Ive seen, heard and read here I think I will skip DoW3. Sadly Relic seems to only have survived in name. Its been quite downhill since CoH and DoW2.

Quite is an understatement if I ever heard one, but yes. Relic of old is long, long gone and instead we get games like DoW 3

Lets not be too harsh, no sense in beating a dead horse

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Trondheim wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
From what Ive seen, heard and read here I think I will skip DoW3. Sadly Relic seems to only have survived in name. Its been quite downhill since CoH and DoW2.

Quite is an understatement if I ever heard one, but yes. Relic of old is long, long gone and instead we get games like DoW 3

Lets not be too harsh, no sense in beating a dead horse

No. You turn it into a servitor and put it to work. Something something *insert 40k joke here*. I don't even know what I'm saying but the idea of a horse servitor makes me laugh.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I hate the overly colourful almost cartoonist art style of the game. I Much preferred Dow 2.

In fact I quite liked Dow 2, being able to level up and customise squads skills and loadouts, almost like tabletop 40k. The only thing I truly disliked was how they scaled the size of the units down to combat squad size.

A scaled up Dow 2 would have been awesome, but with more focus on macro management rather than micro.

That said , its on my wishlist and I might get it in a year when the price drops by half to £20, even if just out of nostalgia and a desire to play more 40k.

I have similar feelings towards the graphics. DoW 2 on the scale of the first CoH would have been the best for me. That was the dream and I really like that DoW 2 took a step in that direction with cover and vehicles and such, but it never got the scale right. DoW 3 with upgraded graphics from 2 in the game play style of the CoH Blitzkrieg mod would have been my fantasy 40K game!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Trondheim wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
From what Ive seen, heard and read here I think I will skip DoW3. Sadly Relic seems to only have survived in name. Its been quite downhill since CoH and DoW2.

Quite is an understatement if I ever heard one, but yes. Relic of old is long, long gone and instead we get games like DoW 3

Lets not be too harsh, no sense in beating a dead horse

No. You turn it into a servitor and put it to work. Something something *insert 40k joke here*. I don't even know what I'm saying but the idea of a horse servitor makes me laugh.

The only thing I'm imagining now is a regular servitor with one of those ridiculous horse masks on

Yes, that's exactly what I want. A reskinned Company of Heroes (1).

Company of Heroes had a much improved cover system over Dow. Pinning & morale. Artillery. Aircraft (as special abilities). Large unit sizes. Tech trees. Destructible terrain.

Exactly, the modding community also improved on it so much. It really felt epic to fight over a city that started off undamaged and slowly just watch it being bombed and shelled into ruins to fight over. The mods for crazier AI and no pop cap were sooo good, nothing like fighting off AI hordes of tanks and infantry while slowly advancing or getting pushed back. Pop cap really holds back a lot of these games, CoH already had diminishing incomes for army size, never got the pop limit on top.

DoW 2 just had a few desert dwellings or a city parking lot to fight over, while DoW 1 was ridiculously blobby and didn't feel realistic at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Exactly, the modding community also improved on it so much. It really felt epic to fight over a city that started off undamaged and slowly just watch it being bombed and shelled into ruins to fight over. The mods for crazier AI and no pop cap were sooo good, nothing like fighting off AI hordes of tanks and infantry while slowly advancing or getting pushed back. Pop cap really holds back a lot of these games, CoH already had diminishing incomes for army size, never got the pop limit on top.

DoW 2 just had a few desert dwellings or a city parking lot to fight over, while DoW 1 was ridiculously blobby and didn't feel realistic at all.

No please noting like CoH1. I would much rather have a game that had a similar line of progress as DoW2, drop the basebuilding and endless hordes of troops and vehicels. A game where you get rewarded for conserving your squads and leveling them are much better and feels a lot more rewarding that just a grindfest as DoW1 was.

I will agree after a couple hours of play I miss the campaign from dawn of war soul. It was fun and easy to play when on hard could give a good challange.

But this game lacks a few things bigger maps, unit formations and lack of diverse buildings.

It is not on par with dawn of war, the mass troops and the epic long battles. It is almost like they took dawn of war and mixed it with that crap CoH dawn of war reskin that basically killed the genre and company a couple years back.

If they shrink the units, increase the number of buildings, add formations and nerf down the elites remove the global abilites and add more points then add a single player campaign like in soul it can be a great sequel to dawn of war genre and we can all get the horrible taste of the remake of CoH reskin out of our mouth.

But this one is more popular so there is a chance. They perfected dawn of war when soul came out if they could remake that with better graphics and add more to that game it would be perfect. There is still 100+ online at night.....

 Trondheim wrote:
No please noting like CoH1. I would much rather have a game that had a similar line of progress as DoW2, drop the basebuilding and endless hordes of troops and vehicels. A game where you get rewarded for conserving your squads and leveling them are much better and feels a lot more rewarding that just a grindfest as DoW1 was.

Perhaps, but I'd prefer the unit scale of Dow 1. I didn't like the tiny squads of 3 space marines in Dow 2.

Dawn of War 1 and Dawn of War 3 are a company / Chapter at war experience, whereas Dawn of War 2 for the most part very much felt like a demi-company or even a special strike force operating under extreme circumstances.

 BrookM wrote:
Dawn of War 1 and Dawn of War 3 are a company / Chapter at war experience, whereas Dawn of War 2 for the most part very much felt like a demi-company or even a special strike force operating under extreme circumstances.

DoW1 was a butcherious (that is a word now) meat grinder of a game, which feels completely absurd to involve Space Marines in.

It was a decent enough game if it was just IG vs Orks, but Space Marines do not do the 'throw more reinforcements at it until it's gone' thing at all. DoW1 was immersionbreaking because it just wasn't functional from an in-universe perspective.

Even DoW2 had you usually take unsustainably high losses as Marine players even when you win, but it's a drop in the ocean compared to DoW1. Seriously, fire warriors were more expensive than space marines in that game. It's just comedy at that point.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
Dawn of War 1 and Dawn of War 3 are a company / Chapter at war experience, whereas Dawn of War 2 for the most part very much felt like a demi-company or even a special strike force operating under extreme circumstances.

DoW1 was a butcherious (that is a word now) meat grinder of a game, which feels completely absurd to involve Space Marines in.

It was a decent enough game if it was just IG vs Orks, but Space Marines do not do the 'throw more reinforcements at it until it's gone' thing at all. DoW1 was immersionbreaking because it just wasn't functional from an in-universe perspective.

Even DoW2 had you usually take unsustainably high losses as Marine players even when you win, but it's a drop in the ocean compared to DoW1. Seriously, fire warriors were more expensive than space marines in that game. It's just comedy at that point.

Seriously
Blood Ravens[edit]
Main article: Blood Ravens
Its a long story, see the main article.

Celestial Lions[edit]
Main article: Celestial Lions
Get their gak handled to them by *cough* ork snipers *cough*, for having the balls to tell the Inquisition to feth off. Currently lost all their officers and apothecaries, and rely on Black Templar apothecaries to rebuild their numbers.

Crimson Fists[edit]
Main article: Crimson Fists
Perhaps the most famous chapter on the brink, these guys were famously messed up when their Chapter's fortress monastery's ammunition supply was detonated by a stray shell that somehow passed through its shields during an assault by Waaagh Snagrod. Over half the chapter was annihilated excluding its chapter master, Pedro Kantor. Despite this the chapter regrouped under its still living leader and proceeded to kick the Orks off their planet.

Emperor's Scythes[edit]
Main article: Emperor's Scythes
This chapter currently only consists on 2 companies; "the battle company" and a growing scout company. This chapter was nommed by Hive Fleet Kraken, giving these guys a serious hard on for dead nids. The 6th edition Space marine codex suggests they actually know more about killing bugs than the Ultramarines.

Invaders[edit]
Main article: Invaders
Lost like half of their chapter when they (successfully) tried to solo an entire fething craftworld. Well, a damaged and partially nommed craftworld, but still, impressive. Then the other Eldar invaded and purged their homeworld, wiping half of the remaining chapter. Few years later Invaders engaged in the World Engine conflict and lost two full terminator squads and probably few ships. While some other chapter might get the message fate keeps slapping them with and try to rebuild their numbers for a decade or two, the Invaders continued to jump into trouble like they heard the universe was handing out asses and they've known nothing but years of bitter ass-famine. They would continue to charge into danger and get their butts handed to them until they eventually walked into a trap set by none other than Ahriman himself. Only thirteen or so Invaders got out alive, and even then only thanks to some help from the Grey Knights.

Lamenters[edit]
Main article: Lamenters
These guys had the misfortune on joining the rebels in the Badab war. After the war, their homeworld was forfeited and the Emperor's Scythes were tasked with making sure they didn't do anything else heretical while they were on their century long penitent crusade during which they can't train new marines. However they became friends with the Emperor's Scythes meaning they also got nommed by Hive Fleet Kraken.

Marines Errant[edit]
Main article: Marines Errant
Although their chapter isn't far from full strength all their geneseed got stolen Blud Rahvens style by the Red Corsairs. Huron, leader of the corsairs, distracted them with shiny ships forcing them out onto patrol and then attacked their chapter fortress. So now they are doomed to slowly die from excessive power-facepalming.


Thats just googling almost wiped out chapters lol. There is a few in dark angles that mention they have to call it off for a while because they almost wiped out their own chapter by refusing to ever back down.

Here are some more

Astral Knights killed themselves off fighting necron to the last man

Crimson Consuls died fighting alpha legion

Dark Paladins fell fighting mech xeno

Emperor's Swords (Bellicas) necrons again

Emperor's Swords (Ghorstangrad) alpha legion again

it be easier if I gave you the link

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lost_Chapter

stubbron til death is a common cause in marines... sooooo if each chapter had 1000 guys then dow 1 was not even close to some of them.

I don't get the point. Those are extreme cases of Space Marines desperately defending their homeworlds, trapped by Tyranids, or otherwise victims to unusual circumstances.

Any such extreme circumstances are not at all portrayed in the DoW1 MP game superstructure itself; they are just skirmishes.

If the third game is anything to go by, the Blood Ravens should be all but extinct by now, but then again, the events of Soulstorm (half the chapter wiped out) and Retribution have also steered the Chapter towards total annihilation, only for them to somehow rebound in no time at all.

Hard capped numbers would get in the way of an enjoyable game though. Sure, it is an affront to the background and the fluff, but sometimes compromises must be made for the sake of gameplay.

"Oh I'm sorry, you've spent your 100 Marines, so your company is wiped out now, thus it is game over for you scrub! GG."

 Ashiraya wrote:
I don't get the point. Those are extreme cases of Space Marines desperately defending their homeworlds, trapped by Tyranids, or otherwise victims to unusual circumstances.

Any such extreme circumstances are not at all portrayed in the DoW1 MP game superstructure itself; they are just skirmishes.

Thats not true in the first one there was blood angle relcis needing to be found then then later on their was info if found could show the blood angles past and make them heresy style "which is why the witch hunters showed up" So it does fall in line, why they risk everything.

As for the reason in dow2 who knows what the story was in that train wreck. They had a 5 man crusade to conquer the galaxy or some gak then the hive swarm of 7 showed up.... Then the orks wanted a hat... ok that is awesom.

OgreChubbs wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I don't get the point. Those are extreme cases of Space Marines desperately defending their homeworlds, trapped by Tyranids, or otherwise victims to unusual circumstances.

Any such extreme circumstances are not at all portrayed in the DoW1 MP game superstructure itself; they are just skirmishes.

Thats not true in the first one there was blood angle relcis needing to be found then then later on their was info if found could show the blood angles past and make them heresy style "which is why the witch hunters showed up" So it does fall in line, why they risk everything.

As for the reason in dow2 who knows what the story was in that train wreck. They had a 5 man crusade to conquer the galaxy or some gak then the hive swarm of 7 showed up.... Then the orks wanted a hat... ok that is awesom.

What on earth.

Is this post meant to be satire?

 Ashiraya wrote:
I don't get the point. Those are extreme cases of Space Marines desperately defending their homeworlds, trapped by Tyranids, or otherwise victims to unusual circumstances.

Any such extreme circumstances are not at all portrayed in the DoW1 MP game superstructure itself; they are just skirmishes.

So, instead of admitting that he has a point, you just ignore the evidence. Sounds like quality Dakka posting to me.

Also, on topic, @BrooKM did you pre-order and get the skin for...Solaria? Or whoever the knight is?

 Frankenberry wrote:
So, instead of admitting that he has a point, you just ignore the evidence.

I said that his evidence is too anecdotal, which is not the same as ignoring it.

DoW1 depicts completely standard pitched, matched battles between two forces of similar numbers that have ample time to retreat, advance or construct fortifications. Why is a Chapter being slowly assassinated by inquisitorial snipers used as a comparison? Why is a chapter landing on a planet-sized starcraft, blowing it up, and getting blown up in the process used as a comparison? Why is a chapter almost literally drowning in a million times their number in Tyranids used as a comparison? Those are all extreme situations, situations that are all exceptions to the very standard battes that are DoW1.

This is about DoW1, but DoW3 has a lot of the same problems.

Nevermind, impossible argument.

 Frankenberry wrote:
Nevermind, impossible argument.

So, instead of admitting that I have a point, you just ignore the evidence. Sounds like quality Dakka posting to me.

.
.
.
That was a bit of a joke.

On a more serious note you really have to understand the actual role of the Space Marines. A deployment against a predictable enemy detachment of about equal numbers is almost the perfect situation for their battlefield role (the only thing that would have been better would be dropping right on top of the enemy). The point of their superior speed, firepower, resilience, training and equipment is so that they can quickly and efficiently eliminate a target enemy force and then move on to their next mission. The really small IG force (and yes, high dozens to low hundreds is really tiny as far as IG armies go), for example, depicted in a DoW1 game is just the kind of opponent the SM can sweep aside really quickly and then move on. SM don't want even battles. They are too few and their recruitment too slow and awkward to deal with attrition well.

So what should they have done? Make the average DoW1 (or 2, or 3...) battle depict a setup gone wrong for the marines. Reduce their squad size and leave the stats per squad the same. Now you have a matchup that works both in lore and for balance. DoW2 did this, which is great, though they could have gone further than they did (I made a mod for that but that's another story).

 Frankenberry wrote:
Also, on topic, @BrooKM did you pre-order and get the skin for...Solaria? Or whoever the knight is?

I did not get the special skins, which are locked away with a separate code I think? A day before release I only received my serial for the core game itself, which was from a German physical copy, so maybe the Germans didn't get them pre-order bonuses, or they forgot about it. Bit miffed, as while the Dark Queen skin is naff, the other two, especially Beauty with its engine head, look especially nice. Though it would not surprise me if these became available as DLC or part of a GOTY edition later down the road, they did the same with the equipment packs for the commanders of Dawn of War II - Retribution and certain bits and bobs from Space Marine IIRC.

Really, really back on topic, they rolled out a small patch yesterday with a load of fixes and quite eerily, as something TB mentioned being a massive factor in multiplayer games, the ability to surrender, because that's what this game really needed.

New
You can now surrender in multiplayer matches

Improved
Ronahn’s Long Shot now shows a line on the minimap when aiming
Improved presentation in Player Profile screen

Bug Fixes
Fixed assorted rare crashes
Fixed issue where a chat command (/leave) could cause a crash
Fixed broken link to modding wiki in Steam Workshop page
Fixed flow issues with quick-matching versus AI when in a party
Fixed potential progression blocker in Mission 17
Fixed issue with knockback in water
Fixed additional instances of ability usage visible through the fog of war
Fixed extra scrap being generated by drop pods after their wrecks were looted
Fixed text display issues in Steam Workshop
Fixed issue with Gorkanaut Rokkit Fist if you issued a move order immediately after using it
Disabled incorrectly active buttons during quick match countdown
Fixed issue with melee tie up of ranged units placed in melee stance
Jain Zar now has visual FX for her scream passive
Fixed issue where Bonesinger could become invisible if its Warp ability was canceled
Fixed occasional animation issues with Land Speeder crew
Eldritch Storm conduit can no longer capture heavy cover
Fixed shared cooldown on Bomb Squig and Rokkit Barrage abilities on Tankbustas
Fixed missing decor upgrades on Space Marine Stronghold building when player tiers up
Fixed missing visual FX on Jonah Orion’s Fury of the Ancients when inside the Stonewall created by Plant the Standard
Fixed issue where Elites could get trapped behind the colossus gate in Mission 13
Fixed issue where certain doctrines had no effect on units deployed via drop pod
Fixed issue where “Hide In-World UI” option applied to some campaign objects, causing progression blockers in Mission 7 and difficulty elsewhere
Fixed issue with certain missions reporting 0 XP earned
Fixed issue in which Shield Generator shields could be repaired by builder units
Fixed issue where Kill Team Ironmaw’s respawn time was not properly increasing when killed in multiplayer games
Fixed missing tooltips for Elites on post-match screen
Removed non-functional play button in Steam Workshop
Fixed issue where Macha’s mastery skin would permanently leave elements in the world after she was killed
Fixed issue where Campaign Map button on rewards screen had to be pressed twice to access that screen
Fixed issue where connected Webway Gates would not display FX
Fixed assorted camera stutters when skipping NISes
Fixed non-functional secondary highlight in Doctrine Selector in Elites screen
Fixed issue where Venerable Dreadnought Toss ability was not stunning infantry

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
Nevermind, impossible argument.

So, instead of admitting that I have a point, you just ignore the evidence. Sounds like quality Dakka posting to me.

.
.
.
That was a bit of a joke.

On a more serious note you really have to understand the actual role of the Space Marines. A deployment against a predictable enemy detachment of about equal numbers is almost the perfect situation for their battlefield role (the only thing that would have been better would be dropping right on top of the enemy). The point of their superior speed, firepower, resilience, training and equipment is so that they can quickly and efficiently eliminate a target enemy force and then move on to their next mission. The really small IG force (and yes, high dozens to low hundreds is really tiny as far as IG armies go), for example, depicted in a DoW1 game is just the kind of opponent the SM can sweep aside really quickly and then move on. SM don't want even battles. They are too few and their recruitment too slow and awkward to deal with attrition well.

So what should they have done? Make the average DoW1 (or 2, or 3...) battle depict a setup gone wrong for the marines. Reduce their squad size and leave the stats per squad the same. Now you have a matchup that works both in lore and for balance. DoW2 did this, which is great, though they could have gone further than they did (I made a mod for that but that's another story).

You do not have a point, you are just blatantly or inadvertently ignoring others points, with your own anecdotal evidence. So the thought that comes to the for front when you believe "think" you are winning an argument or portraying your point of view is that people believe you are not worth the time, do not understand a counter argument or are too self righteous to admit you make mistakes.

Sure, lose an argument and try to damage control it by claiming 'you are impossible to argue with' or 'you are not worth people's time.'

That's dignified.

:/

 BrookM wrote:
Hard capped numbers would get in the way of an enjoyable game though. Sure, it is an affront to the background and the fluff, but sometimes compromises must be made for the sake of gameplay.

"Oh I'm sorry, you've spent your 100 Marines, so your company is wiped out now, thus it is game over for you scrub! GG."

That sounds like a brilliant idea for a self forged campaign if you ask me

Such restrictions may work better with a slightly different game maybe, like a tactics game or the like, akin to X-COM or Jagged Alliance 2.

Oh yeah, a different game entirely, but that would be such a great 40k game if the concept was well executed.

It could probably work within DOW2's framework as an RTS, just on a bigger campaign scale with no particular narrative other than to attempt to save a world in the name of the God Emperor.

Would also be an opportunity to ditch the Blood Ravens. As much as I love them, they are hogging the limelight in 40k videogames a little too much.

The Blood Ravens are damaged beyond repair by now, but ingame and outside of it at this point, but using a non-GW created chapter is the best thing to do really with that sort of stuff.

What I'd love to see is a mode centred around the super-heavies, akin to that tank mode from the second Company of Heroes expansion.

Check out Wargame Red dragon or Steel Division: Normandy 44 for how to do a limited numbers army game. If your not familiar with them already. They both involve building your armies which are made of limited components. So if you are bad and get all your infantry in one blob and die from a big artillery attack you won't have anymore left.

So you need to really plan your method of attack. Also there is supply lines as well. You need to think about where your off map resupply is coming from and where you want to put your resupply trucks and vehicles.

I so want them do to a 40k version of Wargame/Normady 44. I suspect they would take out supply lines though since that might be too complicated for an average 40k DoW player.