Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So, I've been toying with splitting the Wraithguard unit. Some like 2 Scythes and 3 Cannons. That way, the Scythes help you kill something in cover for sure as target 1 and the Cannons can shoot at target 2.

The ITC rules are generally announced and posted far in advance. My next big event is going to be the Crucible in Orlando and my last one was Warzone Atlanta. Both posted the ITC faq's months in advance. If you don't want to read them online, then just print them yourself. I don't think they should have to print 100+ copies of a 20 page document because you don't want to read it on an ipad.

I far prefer that to the obscene numbers of rules that aren't addressed or contradictions that come up in the rulebook that I would have to settle at the table with a person I don't know. Yes, some ruling are about balance like preventing warp spiders from having an unlimited number of flickerjumps, but far more are about addressing answers that aren't clear to some people in the rules. When I played at non-ITC events, I had players saying things like "Void Shield Generators can't be destroyed because they don't have hull points on the data sheet" even though the rulebook said medium buildings count as having 4 hullpoints. Spend some time in YMDC and you'll quickly see how adamant people can become about their supposedly "clear" rulings in opposite directions of each other.

"ITC events" are also more open-minded than I think you're giving them credit for. One of the things they advocate constantly is that you should adjust the rules and restrictions for your own events. Warzone Atlanta, for example, did not have the lord of war restrictions but I appreciated having clear answers to questions like can an autarch affect reserves while not on the table anyways.

To your deepstriking questions, I found it helpful to have a character on a bike in the unit (like an autarch) to make it easier to place the d-scythe guard in good positioning.

Audustum wrote:
So, I've been toying with splitting the Wraithguard unit. Some like 2 Scythes and 3 Cannons. That way, the Scythes help you kill something in cover for sure as target 1 and the Cannons can shoot at target 2.

I would love it if this were possible. If it was, there would be no debate. Everyone would do a 2/3 mix of Scythes/Cannons for the exact reason you just mentioned.
Sadly the unit starts with all Cannons and upgrades to all Scythes.

 lessthanjeff wrote:

To your deepstriking questions, I found it helpful to have a character on a bike in the unit (like an autarch) to make it easier to place the d-scythe guard in good positioning.

The problem for me is that any character on bike normally comes on a 32mm stand, which then guarantees that all 5 WG can be in base contact, thereby reduce the templates I can put on the same target. A 25mm character (the WWP Archon) makes it possible to put the 5th WG in the outer rim.
Also, my bikes are on oval bases (because that is a more appropriate size for them, and the FAQ such permission to use "appropriate" bases for them) so my Autarch on oval base being used for Deep Strike might appear as modeling for advantage, which is not why he is on that base.

-

 Galef wrote:

Audustum wrote:
So, I've been toying with splitting the Wraithguard unit. Some like 2 Scythes and 3 Cannons. That way, the Scythes help you kill something in cover for sure as target 1 and the Cannons can shoot at target 2.

I would love it if this were possible. If it was, there would be no debate. Everyone would do a 2/3 mix of Scythes/Cannons for the exact reason you just mentioned.
Sadly the unit starts with all Cannons and upgrades to all Scythes.

 lessthanjeff wrote:

To your deepstriking questions, I found it helpful to have a character on a bike in the unit (like an autarch) to make it easier to place the d-scythe guard in good positioning.

The problem for me is that any character on bike normally comes on a 32mm stand, which then guarantees that all 5 WG can be in base contact, thereby reduce the template I can put on the same target. A 25mm character (the WWP Archon) makes it possible to put the 5th WG in the outer rim.
Also, my bikes are on oval bases (because that is a more appropriate size for them, as the FAQ gives me permission to use) so my Autarch on oval base being used for Deep Strike might appear as modeling for advantage, which is not why he is on that base.

-

I'm glad I never really fielded them with Scythes then (1 experimental game) because I've been reading that rule wrong for a very long time.

Yeah, I think jetbikes should get the skimmer treatment. Use the model or the base. Space Marine bikers aren't forced to use the same base size as a tactical marine after all.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
Yeah, I think jetbikes should get the skimmer treatment. Use the model or the base. Space Marine bikers aren't forced to use the same base size as a tactical marine after all.

Exactly. And they actually are in some cases, like Blasts that only have to hit the model, not just the base.
I was tired of always measuring from my base and confusing my opponents when they try to measure to the canopy of the bike.
Then you get into the discussion as to whether the bike is part of the model or just wargear as you can measure to a model, but not the wargear. Bikes are both

So it just seemed to make sense to rebase all my bikes on ovals so that the base and bike are roughly the same. And since SM bikes are now on ovals, I can use them as guidance to adhere to the FAQ.
So using my Autarch as the first Deep Strike model would be too awkward.

-

Belly wrote:
The first time you mishap the raider w/ scythes, or scatter too far to use the scythes...you'll regret it.

A Raider is a fast skimmer, there's not much reason for you to Deep Strike it somewhere it can mishap.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Belly wrote:
The first time you mishap the raider w/ scythes, or scatter too far to use the scythes...you'll regret it.

A Raider is a fast skimmer, there's not much reason for you to Deep Strike it somewhere it can mishap.

Except for the whole "Raiders are paper airplanes that explode to a stiff breeze thing" is reason enough
A Raider with WG (with either weapon) is an enemy's #1 target. It will not get to be close enough for the WG to shoot, hence why someone would want to Deep Strike it.
Not be cause it gets it closer, but because it keeps it off the table and away from being shot at.

-

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Belly wrote:
The first time you mishap the raider w/ scythes, or scatter too far to use the scythes...you'll regret it.

A Raider is a fast skimmer, there's not much reason for you to Deep Strike it somewhere it can mishap.

Exactly. You can't shoot if you turbo boost with the Raider, which defeats the whole point of you getting the first shot unless you get REALLY lucky with your jink saves (and your opponent just decides to mostly ignore it for some unknown reason)

I just thought of a cool, if expensive tactic:

WWP Archon + D-scythe WG + Wave Serpent w/ Vectored engines.
Drop in, disembark, kill a unit, Soulburst back into the Serpent, the Serpent shoots and uses the Vectored engines to pivot it's rear armour away from threats.

GG

-

 luke1705 wrote:

Exactly. You can't shoot if you turbo boost with the Raider, which defeats the whole point of you getting the first shot unless you get REALLY lucky with your jink saves (and your opponent just decides to mostly ignore it for some unknown reason)

I'm aware. So your Raider gets shot, then your Wraithguard get out and shoot before anything can happen to them. Soulburst!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
I just thought of a cool, if expensive tactic:

WWP Archon + D-scythe WG + Wave Serpent w/ Vectored engines.
Drop in, disembark, kill a unit, Soulburst back into the Serpent, the Serpent shoots and uses the Vectored engines to pivot it's rear armour away from threats.
-

If you think Raiders die instantly, why do you think a Wave Serpent sitting right on top of the enemy would survive any longer? It's not open-topped, but it has the same armor that matters. Pivot as much as you want, you're surrounded.

Something important for al you people taking archons over raiders, how are you equipping them? Is it worth taking a clone field or blaster? If you are going to give him a close combat weapon, why not use a succubus?

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I just thought of a cool, if expensive tactic:

WWP Archon + D-scythe WG + Wave Serpent w/ Vectored engines.
Drop in, disembark, kill a unit, Soulburst back into the Serpent, the Serpent shoots and uses the Vectored engines to pivot it's rear armour away from threats.
-

If you think Raiders die instantly, why do you think a Wave Serpent sitting right on top of the enemy would survive any longer? It's not open-topped, but it has the same armor that matters. Pivot as much as you want, you're surrounded.

Raiders die instantly because they don't have the transport capacity to fit a WWP Archon. So the Raider either has to risk a turn being on the board, or Deep strike and risk mishap
Serpents have capacity 12, and can fit the Archon thereby not having to risk either of those things.
Serpents are also AV12 and have special shields that can downgrade Pens into Glances. There was a reason why 6th ed Eldar had tons on Serpents

Also, units have to be within 7" of a destroyed unit in order to Soulburst. It is kinda hard for unit that are not on the board (such as embarked units per the FAQ) to be in range of anything

-

 Galef wrote:

Serpents are also AV12 and have special shields that can downgrade Pens into Glances.

Serpents have AV 10 and no special shields on the rear, the rear which is ~6 from the enemy after your Wraithguard shot something. So not only can they shoot it in the rear at their leisure, they can charge it and punch the rear from much further away.

Wave Serpents close enough to have flamer Wraithguard shooting from it are only not-open topped tougher than a Raider.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Serpents are also AV12 and have special shields that can downgrade Pens into Glances.

Serpents have AV 10 and no special shields on the rear, the rear which is ~6 from the enemy after your Wraithguard shot something. So not only can they shoot it in the rear at their leisure, they can charge it and punch the rear from much further away.

Wave Serpents close enough to have flamer Wraithguard shooting from it are only not-open topped tougher than a Raider.

Hence the Vectored engines, which allows a pivot after the Serpent shoots. So with a precision Deep Strike from the WWP, giving enough room for the WG to disembark, then shoot and Soulburst back into the Serpent, which then shoots and pivots 180. Now that rear should be about 12" away from the enemy. If there is anything that can charge it, it was your fault for placing the Serpent there, instead of in a spot you were able to clear with the rest of your army.
Seriously, why can't you see the value in this? Sure it is expensive for what it does, but a Raider just cannot compare to a Serpent in this case.

-

 Galef wrote:
[
Seriously, why can't you see the value in this?
-

Because of the hundreds of Wave Serpents I've seen punched out of the sky by Marines. They are only slightly more durable than Raiders, in the same way a Dire Avenger is slightly more durable than a Guardian. That amount of durability has no practical effect.

"DUR HUR HUR DON"T BE CLOSE" Ok, have fun spending 500 points picking of some trash unit on the very edge of your opponent's army. Do you play in a world where people don't support their good units? Anything you'd want to hit with a bunch of D weapons is going to be surrounded by enemy forces.

If this works even one time, you were playing an idiot.

 Galef wrote:
disembark, then shoot and Soulburst back into the Serpent, which then shoots and pivots 180

You can't voluntarily embark or disembark from a vehicle unless it's the Movement phase, you can't voluntarily embark and disembark from a vehicle in the same turn, and vehicles that have already moved this turn - which the Serpent would've, since it's arriving from reserve - can't move any further once a unit embarks including pivoting on the spot. There's nothing in the rules for Soulburst or Vectored Engines that overcomes these restrictions.

If you want a D-Scythe death-ride then Wave Seprents would be the ones I'd go for - Raiders are fine for one-and-done CC units but dump for anything else IMHO - but you're not going to be able to do all this stuff with the unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lambsandlions wrote:
Something important for al you people taking archons over raiders, how are you equipping them? Is it worth taking a clone field or blaster? If you are going to give him a close combat weapon, why not use a succubus?

I'm guessing he'd have a WWP and nothing else - that's how it was done in 5th when people tried it back then. Succubuses (Succubii? Succupodes?) can't take a WWP so you can't use those.

Also that Starweaver in your avatar is very nice indeed.

As much as it would be nice for the Serpent to actually live past the first drop, it is ok if they get popped. The whole point of the tactic is to have the whole unit + WWP character drop in a transport, disembark in a way the maximizes the template spread, then Soulburst back into the Serpent.
Even if the Serpent pops, it is likely to have take much of the enemy shooting to do and that is shooting that isn't going to the WG. It is takes a CC unit to pop the Serpent, then that means the WG neither got shot at nor assaulted that turn. Points well spent.

As far as disembarking then embarking, I'll have to check the rules when I get home, but Soulburst allows the unit to make a second Move for sure, and Vectored Engines very clearly allows an additional pivot after shooting. If VE cannot work if the vehicle moved that turn, there would be no point in the upgrade existing at all: You move, you shoot, then Pivot.

EDIT: BTW, Archons, Succubi & Heamonculi can all take WWPs. The Archon is the cheapest and that is why you take an Archon over the other 2.

-

 Galef wrote:
As far as disembarking then embarking, I'll have to check the rules when I get home

Page 80; the paragraph directly under the heading "Embarking and Disembarking".

Soulburst allows the unit to make a second Move for sure

100% it does - and it says "as though it were your Movement phase", which I'd argue means they can use it to embark on a transport despite the fact you can't normally do that outside of the movement phase.

Problem is, as per page 80, you can't voluntarily disembark and embark in the same turn. Doesn't specify "game" or "player" turn, which IIRC means they could re-embark in the opponent's turn if something dies within 7" of them, but they can't do it during yours.

and Vectored Engines very clearly allows an additional pivot after shooting.

Right - but again, a vehicle that's already moved can't make any further movement if passengers embark. It's academic because you can't get out and back in again voluntarily in the same turn, but if you could, then you'd have to shoot and turn **before** the passengers embarked, otherwise you wouldn't be able to do it at all.

If VE cannot work if the vehicle moved that turn, there would be no point in the upgrade existing at all: You move, you shoot, then Pivot.

VE overturn a general prohibition on vehicles moving in the shooting phase, so Night Spinners and Fire Prisms, or Falcons and Wave Serpents that nobody has embarked upon that turn, can use the VE to pivot after firing. That's a reasonably good upgrade.

What they don't do is overcome this prohibition (p.80 again):

"If the vehicle moved before its passengers got aboard, it cannot move further that turn (including pivoting on the spot, moving Flat Out, Running or charging)."

Turn, not phase. Embarking on a vehicle that's moved means it can't use its VE that turn. My pal runs WG in a Wave Serpent regularly as part of his Taudar army. This discussion has come up for me before.

EDIT: BTW, Archons, Succubi & Heamonculi can all take WWPs. The Archon is the cheapest and that is why you take an Archon over the other 2.

-

The WWP is Arcane Wargear. The Succubus doesn't have access to Arcane Wargear, just Wych Weapons, Melee Weapons and Artefacts of Cruelty.

The WWP has also been nerfed substantially, which I didn't know. Used to be a marker you placed on the table that acted as your board edge and your units could move on through it; now it just gives the dude and his unit Deep Strike if they're in reserve or Ongoing Reserve. That kinda blows.

You are correct about re-embarking, I concede the point. There goes that whole strategy. The points spent on the Serpent is not worth the ability to fire all 5 templates. Best to just take the Archon and be done.
No, a Succubus cannot take Arcane Wargear. Luckily, WWP is a specific option on her datesheet, right next to Haywire grenades.

It could be interesting to have a decked out Succubus with the WG to help against them being trapitted, but I don't think she'll do enough damage for that to be reliable.

-

 Galef wrote:
No, a Succubus cannot take Arcane Wargear. Luckily, WWP is a specific option on her datesheet, right next to Haywire grenades.

It could be interesting to have a decked out Succubus with the WG to help against them being trapitted, but I don't think she'll do enough damage for that to be reliable.

-

I stand corrected! I agree about the Succubus - they are not good.

What do you want the WWP for, though? If you're putting them in a Serpent you can deploy them normally and have them across midfield on turn two, which is the earliest you'd get them out of DS reserve. Plus, if there's something the opponent wants to guard against D-Scythes it's probably easier to bubblewrap it against Deep Strikes than it is against Fast Skimmers moving flat out.

Well as I have said, my list has 2 WKs and plenty of scatter bikes, so if can clear bubble wraps turn 1. The WWP for me allows the WG the ability to not get fired on turn 1 like they could be in a Serpent, plus a WWP Archon is cheaper than a Serpent.
The WGs are in the list as a surgical strike unit that can remove targets that may be hard to remove by the WKs or Scatterbikes due to cover. They are also there to provide counter tactics if I want the opponent to focus on a particular area while I use the rest of my army to go somewhere else.
Nothing says "shoot/assault here!" like 5 WG dropping in and templating 2 units off the table.

Although, having a Serpent filled with WG right next to both WKs might be protection enough, since no opponent want to give the WKs a Soulburst in their turn.

-

 Galef wrote:
You are correct about re-embarking, I concede the point. There goes that whole strategy. The points spent on the Serpent is not worth the ability to fire all 5 templates. Best to just take the Archon and be done.
No, a Succubus cannot take Arcane Wargear. Luckily, WWP is a specific option on her datesheet, right next to Haywire grenades.

It could be interesting to have a decked out Succubus with the WG to help against them being trapitted, but I don't think she'll do enough damage for that to be reliable.

-

Any way to fit in a FW Tantalus? That ride seems to be made for D-scyth WGs...

The Tantalus is a DE only transport and is not an option in a Reborn Host. Ynnari WG would be Battle Bros with a DE Tantalus, and therefore could not start the game embraked via the BRB FAQ.

 Galef wrote:
The Tantalus is a DE only transport and is not an option in a Reborn Host. Ynnari WG would be Battle Bros with a DE Tantalus, and therefore could not start the game embraked via the BRB FAQ.

....well that's a pisser.

Before that FAQ, I've used that to good effect.

 whembly wrote:

 Galef wrote:
The Tantalus is a DE only transport and is not an option in a Reborn Host. Ynnari WG would be Battle Bros with a DE Tantalus, and therefore could not start the game embraked via the BRB FAQ.

....well that's a pisser.

Before that FAQ, I've used that to good effect.

What is worse is that there is a hot debate as to whether Ynnari units can even start in Ynnari transport if they have a different second/original faction.
So having Ynnari WG in a Ynnari Raider might not even be possible, although I noted at the beginning of this topic that we should assume they should be able to for this discussion

By the same logic having Ynnari units start in a dedicated transport isn't possible since both its two Factions are Battle Brothers. So, until otherwise noted all Ynnari are Ynnari to me.

Raiders aren't a bad option, if a bit of a gamble. I'd probably run them in a fun game over an Archon. The scatter doesn't hurt so much when you can disembark to correct it.

Yeah, and when I think about it, having a Raider deployed between several powerful shooting units could be a good way to:
A) Distract fire power from those other units,
B) be a deterrent for units to get close to my army early in the game and
C) provide a Soulburst when it inevitably gets popped.

I still prefer the WWP Archon for my list, but the Raider is very tempting.

-

 whembly wrote:

 Galef wrote:
The Tantalus is a DE only transport and is not an option in a Reborn Host. Ynnari WG would be Battle Bros with a DE Tantalus, and therefore could not start the game embraked via the BRB FAQ.

....well that's a pisser.

Before that FAQ, I've used that to good effect.

Doesnt Tantalus datasheet say it can be used in court of archon?

Yeah, its a DT for a court of the archon or a KW unit I think, so thats cool, but you still can't start WG in it as nothing in the CotA is an IC