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Alright, I'll try to explain how destroyer weapons work then.
Now first of all ignore this whole it causes multiple wounds stuff, 1 D attack = 1 D attack, alright? They're generally ap 1 or 2 so celestine isn't getting that armour save anyway thus it's passed onto one of the guards. Now here's the tricky part with D weapons, they cause multiple wounds but do not cause muliple wounds at the same time; again 1 D wound is just one wound in the pool. What the destroyer table does which is interesting is basically says "this model here which has suffered 1 D wound, will actually lose more than one wound instead" as in it's still just one wound and one failed or mostly bypassed it just causes the model to lose more wounds for it instead of the 1.

If you're familiar with AoS think of it like multiple damage weapons; it hits once, it counts as one wound in the pool, you get one save, but you lose more than one wound if it gets through.

 rawne2510 wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:


Go read the D table again please so this thread can cease being sidetracked by sheer stubbornness. The wounds go on one model and the excess are discarded. Thus it would pass to one of the guards and if it dies the rest are lost.

My understanding of how divine guardian worked meant that all the wounds went on to a single model celestine. divine guardian as it is written then seperates the wounds different to how destroyer weapons work. But we have gone past the point of destroyer weapons and moved on to a new rule so the statement of a destroyewr weapon hits 1 model for x wounds deosn´t matter anymore. In my opinion it was a very big negative to the normal awesome effect of divine guardian.

And this is correct I think. It's just D weapons don't cause multiple wounds, but rather you lose multiple and any remaining damage after the model dies is lost as they only applied to that model. It's annoyingly tricky until you read the table more closely.

 rawne2510 wrote:
I accept that if that is how people are playing it.

What you accept is neither here nor there - the rules are clear enough.

 rawne2510 wrote:
If you are saying whilst any geminae are alive that celestine doesn´t get to make a single save

That's the rule as written. Ambiguity exists surrounding the term "suffers", but only insofar as there's no technical definition of that term in the game system. The ambiguity clears up when you look at other uses of the term in the rules.

then I am happy with that because she is less of an issue in combat with my daemons now.
She can´t choose to look out sir any shots until they are both dead

... right.

My whole understanding of this process was that nothing passes off until she fails a save or chooses to LOS.

Then your understanding was entirely incorrect and must change to comport with the RAW.

You are the first person I have spoken to with regards to divine guardian that requires her to automatically pass wounds off before saves are made.

The people you've spoken to who are saying otherwise are likewise incorrect. They, like you, have the right to choose to play the rule some way that differs from the RAW, and to leave a game if their opponent refuses to conform to this incorrect interpretation, but the rules of the game aren't on your side here. Just accept that and move on.

Divine intervention simply says that celestine can't be wounded while her bodyguards are still part of the game, as all hits that the unit takes go to the geminae anyway, without rolling LOS, while they're still alive.

col_impact wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
no it doesn´t. the destroyer result isn´t a wound. You can´t just pass it on. you pass on the number of wounds created from the result not the result itself. Otherwise The ID effect of the hit would kill a germinae in 1 go from the 2-5 results which it doesn´t.

You aren't resolving Destroyer Attacks correctly. There is no wound pool generated by the Destroyer Weapon hit. The entirety of the Destroyer Weapon Attack Roll is "instead of 1 wound".

Also, Destroyer Attacks are handled as str 10 so a result of 2-5 will pass of the result of that roll and ID a Geminae

Not if celestine was taking the wound as she is an EW. The Str and AP of the wound that effected celestine don´t matter to the divine guardian rule. This whole argument is mute if my understanding of hoe divine guardian works is wrong. wound pools don´t matter. Its the number of wounds inflicted that matter. But only if my understanding of the rule is right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:
Divine intervention simply says that celestine can't be wounded while her bodyguards are still part of the game, as all hits that the unit takes go to the geminae anyway, without rolling LOS, while they're still alive.

Yeah this isn´t how i interpreted it. I thought that every failed save moved on to them.

 rawne2510 wrote:
Yeah this isn´t how i interpreted it. I thought that every failed save moved on to them.

Right - so we've identified where you went wrong and can now move on from it.

Well yeah but it makes her worse than everyone seems to be hyping about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
1 Battle cannon round could kill both the germinae in 1 shot

So start another thread about how bad she is. You've eaten up two and a half pages of this one with your house-rule nonsense so far.


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Terminal wrote:
One thing I'll be testing out soon - once I get the Fall of Cadia book - is using a Stormsword as part of the Castellans detachment.

... you can take Baneblades in a Castellans detachment?


Well, look at that. So you can. Drop Pod Grav Mehrens, BSS in Melta death-rides, Coteaz, Servo Skulls, respawning Guard infantry blobs and a Shadowsword, with enough Detachment space left to bring a couple of Sisters of Silence squads. That's reprehensible.

People are misreading divine guardian. No where does it say the guardians take the hit or take the wound. In fact it says Celestine always suffers the wound. The wound pool and all wounds are always suffered by Celestine. The only difference is the actual wound is allocated to a guardian. So everything is rolled and done as if Celestine is the target and once you remove a wound it instead comes off a guardian.

This is completely different wording than LOS which states the interceding model suffers the wound. The two completely different worded rules do not behave the same way.

 rawne2510 wrote:
wound pools don´t matter. Its the number of wounds inflicted that matter. But only if my understanding of the rule is right.

The distinction between the two does indeed matter quite a lot.
Pg 163, destroyer table. D weapons do not cause more than 1 wound.




Back on topic finally but I use screamers, not intending to use them as a screamer star but since I have a grimoire herald I could easily kind of make one mid game if needed. The daemon prince idea sounds way more fun though, I'll have to try it sometime. Gives me a good excuse to make one.

gungo wrote:
People are misreading divine guardian. No where does it say the guardians take the hit or take the wound. In fact it says Celestine always suffers the wound. The wound pool and all wounds are always suffered by Celestine. The only difference is the actual wound is allocated to a guardian. So everything is rolled and done as if Celestine is the target and once you remove a wound it instead comes off a guardian.

This is completely different wording than LOS which states the interceding model suffers the wound. The two completely different worded rules do not behave the same way.

So you are saying BAPP interpretation is wrong.

gungo wrote:
People are misreading divine guardian. No where does it say the guardians take the hit or take the wound. In fact it says Celestine always suffers the wound. The wound pool and all wounds are always suffered by Celestine. The only difference is the actual wound is allocated to a guardian. So everything is rolled and done as if Celestine is the target and once you remove a wound it instead comes off a guardian.

So I resolve the wound against Celestine and then just pretend the Geminae Superia was wounded instead? Even though it says "resolve the wound against a Geminae Superia"?

Either I can tank AP3 with Celestine's 2+ armour save or I resolve the wounds against the Geminae Superia like it says in the book. It can't be both.

 rawne2510 wrote:

gungo wrote:
People are misreading divine guardian. No where does it say the guardians take the hit or take the wound. In fact it says Celestine always suffers the wound. The wound pool and all wounds are always suffered by Celestine. The only difference is the actual wound is allocated to a guardian. So everything is rolled and done as if Celestine is the target and once you remove a wound it instead comes off a guardian.

This is completely different wording than LOS which states the interceding model suffers the wound. The two completely different worded rules do not behave the same way.

So you are saying BAPP interpretation is wrong.

im not saying anyone is wrong I'm saying the rule literally says Celestine suffers the wound not the geminae. The wounds are only removed from a geminae wound pool.

It hardly matters in the rare case of a str d hit the geminae still get 2+ LoS. She will rarely die to even a 6 on str d.


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 BBAP wrote:

gungo wrote:
People are misreading divine guardian. No where does it say the guardians take the hit or take the wound. In fact it says Celestine always suffers the wound. The wound pool and all wounds are always suffered by Celestine. The only difference is the actual wound is allocated to a guardian. So everything is rolled and done as if Celestine is the target and once you remove a wound it instead comes off a guardian.

So I resolve the wound against Celestine and then just pretend the Geminae Superia was wounded instead? Even though it says "resolve the wound against a Geminae Superia"?

Either I can tank AP3 with Celestine's 2+ armour save or I resolve the wounds against the Geminae Superia like it says in the book. It can't be both.

Do not try to selectively edit a quote to prove your wrong statement.
The rule is exactly "Any wounds suffered by Celestine are resolved by the closest geminae superia instead"
Do not change the words
Celestine suffers the wound
Resolve it against geminae

This is where I then think that rule messes up destroyer weapons becasue a deathblow result would attribute a minimum of 7 wounds on celestine meaning that the destroyer rule of it wounds only 1 model goes out the window.

gungo wrote:
im not saying anyone is wrong I'm saying the rule literally says Celestine suffers the wound not the geminae. The wounds are only removed from a geminae wound pool.

It hardly matters in the rare case of a str d hit the geminae still get 2+ LoS

This is the same mistake rawne has been making for two and a half pages. The relevant section of the rule is this:

"In addition, whilst at least one Geminae Superia is still alive, resolve any wounds suffered by Celestine against the Geminae Superia closest to her instead."

"Suffered" doesn't mean "taken". A unit "suffers" a wound when a successful to-wound roll is made against it. The procedure is:

- Roll to hit
- Roll to wound <-- This is the point at which a unit "suffers" wounds.
- Allocate wounds
- Resolve allocated wounds (take saves, remove wounds from profiles/ models as casualties, apply any other weapon effects)

For D weapons, the process is:

- Roll to hit
- Roll on the D weapon table for each hit
- Calculate how many wounds each hit has generated <-- This is the point at which a unit "suffers" wounds
- Resolve wounds against closest models (take saves, remove wounds from profiles/ models as casualties, apply any other weapon effects)

It's an ambiguity around the term "suffers" that's causing the problem here, but the fact remains that if you're rolling saves (and failing them) for Celestine then you're resolving the wounds against her, not the Geminae Superia. That's not what Divine Guardian tells you to do.

That would however mean that Celestine becomes the tank that everyone is hyping about.

gungo wrote:
Do not try to selectively edit a quote to prove your wrong statement.
The rule is exactly "Any wounds suffered by Celestine are resolved by the closest geminae superia instead"
Do not change the words
Celestine suffers the wound
Resolve it against geminae

Don't go all Alex Jones on me - I removed sections of text that weren't relevant to the mistake you're making, that's all.

Here's a rehash:

The relevant section of the rule is this:

"In addition, whilst at least one Geminae Superia is still alive, resolve any wounds suffered by Celestine against the Geminae Superia closest to her instead."

"Suffered" doesn't mean "taken". A unit "suffers" a wound when a successful to-wound roll is made against it. The procedure is:

- Roll to hit
- Roll to wound <-- This is the point at which a unit "suffers" wounds.
- Allocate wounds
- Resolve allocated wounds (take saves, remove wounds from profiles/ models as casualties, apply any other weapon effects)

For D weapons, the process is:

- Roll to hit
- Roll on the D weapon table for each hit
- Calculate how many wounds each hit has generated <-- This is the point at which a unit "suffers" wounds
- Resolve wounds against closest models (take saves, remove wounds from profiles/ models as casualties, apply any other weapon effects)

It's an ambiguity around the term "suffers" that's causing the problem here, but the fact remains that if you're rolling saves (and failing them) for Celestine then you're resolving the wounds against her, not the Geminae Superia. That's not what Divine Guardian tells you to do.


EDIT: If you want some kind of precedent for my interpretation of "suffers", here's the text of the "Haemmorage" psychic power:

"The target must pass two separate Toughness tests or suffer a Wound with no armour or cover saves allowed for each test that was failed. If the target is removed as a casualty, randomly select another model (friend or foe) within 2" of him. That model must pass a single Toughness test or suffer a Wound with no armour or cover saves allowed."

Models are "suffering" wounds that disallow saves. If we use your interpretation of the term - which requires us to resolve the wound against Celestine and then just say "feth it" and apply the effects to the Geminae Superia - then the model is taking a wound, taking its save, then having to rewind time to not-take the save that it wasn't allowed to take in the first place.

 BBAP wrote:

gungo wrote:
im not saying anyone is wrong I'm saying the rule literally says Celestine suffers the wound not the geminae. The wounds are only removed from a geminae wound pool.

It hardly matters in the rare case of a str d hit the geminae still get 2+ LoS

This is the same mistake rawne has been making for two and a half pages. The relevant section of the rule is this:

"In addition, whilst at least one Geminae Superia is still alive, resolve any wounds suffered by Celestine against the Geminae Superia closest to her instead."

"Suffered" doesn't mean "taken". A unit "suffers" a wound when a successful to-wound roll is made against it. The procedure is:

- Roll to hit
- Roll to wound <-- This is the point at which a unit "suffers" wounds.
- Allocate wounds
- Resolve allocated wounds (take saves, remove wounds from profiles/ models as casualties, apply any other weapon effects)

For D weapons, the process is:

- Roll to hit
- Roll on the D weapon table for each hit
- Calculate how many wounds each hit has generated <-- This is the point at which a unit "suffers" wounds
- Resolve wounds against closest models (take saves, remove wounds from profiles/ models as casualties, apply any other weapon effects)

It's an ambiguity around the term "suffers" that's causing the problem here, but the fact remains that if you're rolling saves (and failing them) for Celestine then you're resolving the wounds against her, not the Geminae Superia. That's not what Divine Guardian tells you to do.

I don't think me and you are opposing statements I'm agreeing with you which is why I said I'm not saying your wrong. I was saying people kept stating the geminae takes the hit or takes the wound which is not what divine guardian states. You are correct After the wounds are suffered it is resolved on the geminae using thier saves etc.

gungo wrote:
I was saying people kept stating the geminae takes the hit or takes the wound which is not what divine guardian states. You are correct After the wounds are suffered it is resolved on the geminae using thier saves etc.

Right - which means you can punt all 12 Deathblow wounds from Celestine onto a Geminae Superia without the need for Look out Sir or anything else. Celestine suffers all the wounds, but they're all resolved against a single Geminae Superia, who can't take saves against them, so she dies and takes the excess with her.

It's not how it'd be resolved using Look Out Sir, but Look Out Sir is irrelevant here. The two rules are completely seperate.

Essentially you'd need three Deathblows to take out Celestine; one for each of the Geminae bodyguards, then a third to kill Celestine herself.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:
Multiple source RAD grenades and psykicatrope

That's why I love St Celestine's little body guards - you gotta D-strength something? I auto block with a recurring model that has no use beyond being an auto blocker. If desperation demands it I might throw a Cybermutt in the way.

Strength D means nothing when you become Toughness 0 and are removed from the game. Celestine would be dead, the body guards are dead, and anything else that is with them that is Toughness 4 or less is dead. I've not even rolled CC attacks.

So back to the point then that Celestine can never choose to make a save whilst a Geminae is alive.


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 Glitcha wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:
Multiple source RAD grenades and psykicatrope

That's why I love St Celestine's little body guards - you gotta D-strength something? I auto block with a recurring model that has no use beyond being an auto blocker. If desperation demands it I might throw a Cybermutt in the way.

Strength D means nothing when you become Toughness 0 and are removed from the game. Celestine would be dead, the body guards are dead, and anything else that is with them that is Toughness 4 or less is dead. I've not even rolled CC attacks.

Doesn´t a model only ever suffer the effect of Rad grenades once no matter how many models have it?

To bring this convo back on track, another thing that effectively kills deathstar is barrage weapons. Effectively "sniping" out key characters (like libbies, priests, heralds, etc...)

This is what makes Renegades and Heretics armies with a Master of Ordnance so powerful, you can bring a sick amount of barrage blasts. They have the added bonus of bringing cheap, fearless fodder blobs via zombies that can tie up deathstars as well. See the LVO winning tournament list for further info.

 rawne2510 wrote:
So back to the point then that Celestine can never choose to make a save whilst a Geminae is alive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Glitcha wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:
Multiple source RAD grenades and psykicatrope

That's why I love St Celestine's little body guards - you gotta D-strength something? I auto block with a recurring model that has no use beyond being an auto blocker. If desperation demands it I might throw a Cybermutt in the way.

Strength D means nothing when you become Toughness 0 and are removed from the game. Celestine would be dead, the body guards are dead, and anything else that is with them that is Toughness 4 or less is dead. I've not even rolled CC attacks.

Doesn´t a model only ever suffer the effect of Rad grenades once no matter how many models have it?

Yes once per squad. Which is why when you jump out of your assault transport to do this, you split the inquisitors up into 4 squads. Then make 4 assaults against the death star at once. Each squad produces a -1 Toughness.

If you can build a competitive list with 4 or more inquisitors equipped with rad-grenades and successfully assault a deathstar all at the same time, cuddos to you and shame on your opponent.

 Glitcha wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:
Multiple source RAD grenades and psykicatrope

That's why I love St Celestine's little body guards - you gotta D-strength something? I auto block with a recurring model that has no use beyond being an auto blocker. If desperation demands it I might throw a Cybermutt in the way.

Strength D means nothing when you become Toughness 0 and are removed from the game. Celestine would be dead, the body guards are dead, and anything else that is with them that is Toughness 4 or less is dead. I've not even rolled CC attacks.

Fine by me, when I can be bothered painting her she's going into a Herald/Libby star, a unit of Space Marine bikes, Thunderwolves and Cyberwolves - enough that average toughness is five.

 Glitcha wrote:


Yes once per squad. Which is why when you jump out of your assault transport to do this, you split the inquisitors up into 4 squads. Then make 4 assaults against the death star at once. Each squad produces a -1 Toughness.

Rad grenades do not specify that the characteristic modifier is cumulative, so they are not cumulative.

4 assaults from 4 squads of Inquisitors with rad grenades will cause a toughness 4 unit to become toughness 3.

Can we get this thread back on topic please? The thread is about how to beat deathstars, not about whether or not Celestine takes destroyer wounds. You guys should start a thread in YMDC for that one, as it probably does deserve its own thread over there.

On topic, it looks like the main methods people suggest on how to beat a deathstar are either a culexus assassin, a bigger or tougher deathstar, or extreme MSU lists. I don't find that the culexus is a good choice for TAC lists, as he can be useless if you face a non-psyker opponent. Plus he can't take a drop pod taxi anymore, so he's hard to get into position and most deathstars can just go around him depending on where he's at. The "bring your own deathstar to counter the opponent's" isn't really a solution, although it can work sometimes. Many armies can't really do deathstars, making this a non-option for them. The extreme MSU option may be the best, especially for Space Marines as they can get large numbers of ObSec units and transports thanks to their Gladius Strike Force. Ravenwing can sort of do it as well; they don't get ObSec but they are fast enough to kite a deathstar or force the player to split it up to get everybody. I would think Eldar would be good for the same reason; those Windriders are fast!

Trying to make sure you get first turn can work, using things like Coteaz that can give you a bonus to Sieze. Most deathstar players can mitigate this in some way though through clever deployment. The best armies to try this method are probably Tau and Eldar, and possibly Astra Militarum artillery-heavy lists.

 phoenix darkus wrote:
To bring this convo back on track, another thing that effectively kills deathstar is barrage weapons. Effectively "sniping" out key characters (like libbies, priests, heralds, etc...)

This is what makes Renegades and Heretics armies with a Master of Ordnance so powerful, you can bring a sick amount of barrage blasts. They have the added bonus of bringing cheap, fearless fodder blobs via zombies that can tie up deathstars as well. See the LVO winning tournament list for further info.

Not sure what happened during that game. But my guess was that the barkstar didn't have scout moves or Hit&Run to guarantee a massive T2 multi-charge, which gives Brett Perkins maybe two turns to barrage snipe Azrael/Priest. And also the masque is HUGE against most deathstars that lacks shooting.

Don't quote me on that but I believe R & H are also allowed to blast their own units during the shooting phase (including units stuck in combat). So you could easily feed a deathstar a blob of zombies then blast the whole blob to shreds with barrage weapons.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

 phoenix darkus wrote:
To bring this convo back on track, another thing that effectively kills deathstar is barrage weapons. Effectively "sniping" out key characters (like libbies, priests, heralds, etc...)

This is what makes Renegades and Heretics armies with a Master of Ordnance so powerful, you can bring a sick amount of barrage blasts. They have the added bonus of bringing cheap, fearless fodder blobs via zombies that can tie up deathstars as well. See the LVO winning tournament list for further info.

Not sure what happened during that game. But my guess was that the barkstar didn't have scout moves or Hit&Run to guarantee a massive T2 multi-charge, which gives Brett Perkins maybe two turns to barrage snipe Azrael/Priest. And also the masque is HUGE against most deathstars that lacks shooting.

The bark star started in reserve and got charged by the screamer star as soon as it turned up.

Yeah like I said, not having HnR really messed him up.

Matt Root's list only has 3 earth shakers that can ID Azrael, even if he fails look out sir, Azrael still has a 2+ save so I would probably risk it.