Beating the Deathstar

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**Dakka Wolf**

ZergSmasher wrote:
Can we get this thread back on topic please? The thread is about how to beat deathstars, not about whether or not Celestine takes destroyer wounds. You guys should start a thread in YMDC for that one, as it probably does deserve its own thread over there.

On topic, it looks like the main methods people suggest on how to beat a deathstar are either a culexus assassin, a bigger or tougher deathstar, or extreme MSU lists. I don't find that the culexus is a good choice for TAC lists, as he can be useless if you face a non-psyker opponent. Plus he can't take a drop pod taxi anymore, so he's hard to get into position and most deathstars can just go around him depending on where he's at. The "bring your own deathstar to counter the opponent's" isn't really a solution, although it can work sometimes. Many armies can't really do deathstars, making this a non-option for them. The extreme MSU option may be the best, especially for Space Marines as they can get large numbers of ObSec units and transports thanks to their Gladius Strike Force. Ravenwing can sort of do it as well; they don't get ObSec but they are fast enough to kite a deathstar or force the player to split it up to get everybody. I would think Eldar would be good for the same reason; those Windriders are fast!

Trying to make sure you get first turn can work, using things like Coteaz that can give you a bonus to Sieze. Most deathstar players can mitigate this in some way though through clever deployment. The best armies to try this method are probably Tau and Eldar, and possibly Astra Militarum artillery-heavy lists.

How a Deathstar takes or avoids damage is crucial to how it survives and how it is countered - we never left topic, got tunnel visioned on a very specific part of the conversation but never left topic.

**Saythings**

The wording for Celestine's wounds being taken by the bodyguards don't even need a LOS. They are essentially the same model when it comes to wounds being taken.

They get ID'd from any S6 and 2 wounds can be taken to the bodyguard from a single hit. But even if Celestine takes 2 StrD shots (and rolls a 6), the 2 bodyguards die. No look out sir is even rolled. It reads, they take the wounds - period. Celestine can be in front of the deathstar with the next closest being the Heralds (to ignore 1 wound per phase) then after that fails, you take them on Celestine. The wounds get transferred to the bodyguards even if they are in the back of the unit outside of 6" inches away. It's a completely broken rule with no limitations.

**Dakka Wolf**

If the unit average is higher so is Celestine's

**rawne2510**

Saythings wrote:
The wording for Celestine's wounds being taken by the bodyguards don't even need a LOS. They are essentially the same model when it comes to wounds being taken.

They get ID'd from any S6 and 2 wounds can be taken to the bodyguard from a single hit. But even if Celestine takes 2 StrD shots (and rolls a 6), the 2 bodyguards die. No look out sir is even rolled. It reads, they take the wounds - period. Celestine can be in front of the deathstar with the next closest being the Heralds (to ignore 1 wound per phase) then after that fails, you take them on Celestine. The wounds get transferred to the bodyguards even if they are in the back of the unit outside of 6" inches away. It's a completely broken rule with no limitations.

Yes but the wording means that you can´t tank crap AP shots with celestine and her 2+. Every wound must automatically go to the bodyguard then. This means you can only LOS once those 2 are dead. I didn´t think that was the case but majority of people here can´t be wrong.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dakka Wolf wrote:
If the unit average is higher so is Celestine's

But not for determining ID.

**Dakka Wolf**

rawne2510 wrote:
Saythings wrote:
The wording for Celestine's wounds being taken by the bodyguards don't even need a LOS. They are essentially the same model when it comes to wounds being taken.

They get ID'd from any S6 and 2 wounds can be taken to the bodyguard from a single hit. But even if Celestine takes 2 StrD shots (and rolls a 6), the 2 bodyguards die. No look out sir is even rolled. It reads, they take the wounds - period. Celestine can be in front of the deathstar with the next closest being the Heralds (to ignore 1 wound per phase) then after that fails, you take them on Celestine. The wounds get transferred to the bodyguards even if they are in the back of the unit outside of 6" inches away. It's a completely broken rule with no limitations.

Yes but the wording means that you can´t tank crap AP shots with celestine and her 2+. Every wound must automatically go to the bodyguard then. This means you can only LOS once those 2 are dead. I didn´t think that was the case but majority of people here can´t be wrong.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dakka Wolf wrote:
If the unit average is higher so is Celestine's

But not for determining ID.

How do you figure that? Instant death entry states "after modifiers" there's nothing in Multiple Toughness Values about it, nor in the Special Rules Appendix.

**rawne2510**

The strength of the weapon is evaluated against the specific models Toughness. Majority toughness is only used to determine the roll for wounding.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Majority toughness isn´t a stat modifier. A toughness 3 tzeentch herald does no get ID from a grot gun when he is in a brimstone squad. He gets wounded on 3s but that is all

**Dakka Wolf**

rawne2510 wrote:
The strength of the weapon is evaluated against the specific models Toughness. Majority toughness is only used to determine the roll for wounding.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Majority toughness isn´t a stat modifier. A toughness 3 tzeentch herald does no get ID from a grot gun when he is in a brimstone squad. He gets wounded on 3s but that is all

And this is written where?

**rawne2510**

Show me where the majority toughness rule specifically says it modifies a models Toughness permanently. Rather than just for the evaluation of the to wound roll?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I ask because at this specific moment I don´t have access to my rule book.

**CrownAxe**

Dakka Wolf wrote:
rawne2510 wrote:
The strength of the weapon is evaluated against the specific models Toughness. Majority toughness is only used to determine the roll for wounding.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Majority toughness isn´t a stat modifier. A toughness 3 tzeentch herald does no get ID from a grot gun when he is in a brimstone squad. He gets wounded on 3s but that is all

And this is written where?

Even if Majority Toughness was a stat modifier, you only do it while rolling to wound. When you are checking for instant death, are you currently rolling to wound?

**rawne2510**

This is my understanding but as I don´t have a book in front of me to see exact wording then I won´t argue.

**Saythings**

rawne2510 wrote:
Saythings wrote:
The wording for Celestine's wounds being taken by the bodyguards don't even need a LOS. They are essentially the same model when it comes to wounds being taken.

They get ID'd from any S6 and 2 wounds can be taken to the bodyguard from a single hit. But even if Celestine takes 2 StrD shots (and rolls a 6), the 2 bodyguards die. No look out sir is even rolled. It reads, they take the wounds - period. Celestine can be in front of the deathstar with the next closest being the Heralds (to ignore 1 wound per phase) then after that fails, you take them on Celestine. The wounds get transferred to the bodyguards even if they are in the back of the unit outside of 6" inches away. It's a completely broken rule with no limitations.

Yes but the wording means that you can´t tank crap AP shots with celestine and her 2+. Every wound must automatically go to the bodyguard then. This means you can only LOS once those 2 are dead. I didn´t think that was the case but majority of people here can´t be wrong.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dakka Wolf wrote:
If the unit average is higher so is Celestine's

But not for determining ID.

No, you still tank the wounds on Celestine's 2+, 4++. If a wound goes thru, it goes to their bodyguard instead. The reason the bodyguards have a 3+/4++ is for when they are the closest model to the firer (or melee swing).

The 200pt monstrosity of a model that is Celestine is ridiculous. There is no way around it. She is the best model the Imperium has every gotten. For as cheap as she is - and for as easy as she is to add to any CAD/Ally - she is almost ALWAYS an auto-include. Hell you can even slap her in front of 3 Centurions and it'll get pretty dumb, pretty fast for 200 pts.

She literally has the best rules ever written - her Rules as Written is unreal. There isn't a single rule given that is bad - except maybe her Warlord trait since no one is going to be using her with Sisters (unless you want a sub-optimal army list).

Obviously, this is my own opinion, feel free to think I'm wrong or other models are better but I'd have to disagree. Haha.

Also - I don't know where it is in the BRB, but Toughness Majority is only for wounding. Once the wounds are distributed and you get past Celestine's pseudo-T5, you treat each shot against her T3. She is Eternal Warrior, so she'll only be taking 1 wound at a time, but her bodyguard's will be dead against anything S6 or better. As for D shots, I'm pretty sure she takes the entire D6+6 wounds. In ITC however, she'll take only 3 wounds (from a 6 on the D chart). She would normal die since its S10 for ID purposes but the EW makes it not ID her and remains 3 wounds.

**SonsofVulkan**

I don't think Celestine can tank the wounds she 'suffers' with her 2+.

Divine Guardian, states that any wounds suffer by Celestine goes to the body guard, thus the bodyguard has to tank a bolter wound with their 3+.

If its read any "un-saved wounds" then Celestine obviously tanks it first before passing on.

**Saythings**

As I read it, wounds suffered are wounds that failed their save. It would say 'resolve all wounds' on her bodyguard.

I believe the 'wounds suffered' are wounds that would have lowered the model's wound profile by 1 - aka wounds that failed their armour save.

I could be wrong. But RAW, this is how I see it and others I play with.

**Dakka Wolf**

rawne2510 wrote:
The strength of the weapon is evaluated against the specific models Toughness. Majority toughness is only used to determine the roll for wounding.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Majority toughness isn´t a stat modifier. A toughness 3 tzeentch herald does no get ID from a grot gun when he is in a brimstone squad. He gets wounded on 3s but that is all

I can't find anything to confirm or deny this but it hardly matters. St Celestine herself is never going to get hit, the Geninae and Heralds will be suffering the actual wounds.

**rawne2510**

She is an eternal warrior so ID doesn´t matter for her but losing both geminae to 1 battle cannon round would hurt.

If she is at the front then the wounds automatically pass to her geminae at which point 1 failed 4++ kills a geminae and if she is in a squad then that is even more wounds on the geminae before she can start tanking them or make LOS to other models in the squad

**Dakka Wolf**

rawne2510 wrote:
She is an eternal warrior so ID doesn´t matter for her but losing both geminae to 1 battle cannon round would hurt.

If she is at the front then the wounds automatically pass to her geminae at which point 1 failed 4++ kills a geminae and if she is in a squad then that is even more wounds on the geminae before she can start tanking them or make LOS to other models in the squad

Libby Conclave gets the Invisibility Psychic power and the battle canon can't even aim at the squad.

**Corvus_corax**

You put St. Celestine out front and LoS on a 2+ with another model (say Smashfucker) against all incoming hits but the D-weapons. That's a 1/12 chance to kill one Germinae when hitting St. Celestine with a battlecannon. When the D-weapons hit take them on St. Celestine and they automatically transfer to the Germinae (which can be anywhere in the unit). Even if she dies to mass D she can revive on a 2d6 roll of 10 or less. She's good, let's just leave it at that.

The thing is basically that in most cases D-weapons won't be able to kill the important characters in a unit. They're made to handle that with additional throwaway wound. Sure having Smashfucker out front vs. a Wraithknight turn 1 would be pretty scary (assume you have to because of Scatterbikes). Buut that 1-in-6 chance isn't exactly a counter when you're so dependant on going first because of spells, now is it? So 50% of the time, it works 22% of the time. Now that's not much of a counter when you've maaaybe killed 1 HQ in the whole deathstar. I'd say that doesn't qualify as a counter at all, maybe a hail-mary., but not a counter. Stomps on the other hand...

Move along, please...

**rawne2510**

Not you you consider that her wounds automatically go to her Geminae. She can´t choose to LOS until they are dead.

**Corvus_corax**

St. Celestine is not the one LoS, another model will LoS for St. Celestine. LoS will make the wounds go on to another model before it is allocated to St. Celestine. Won't it?

Didn't mean to rip open THAT discussion again.

**rawne2510**

The point is her divine guardian rule means all wounds automatically go to the Geminae. You don´t get to LOS. Its a blessing and a curse at the same time for her if you interpret it that way.

I started a post before to see what peoples thoughts were but it didn´t get many replys so I assume everyone is looking to play it this way.

**Corvus_corax**

I don't think you understand.... I agree with everything you're saying. But say that Smasfucker looks-out-sirs for St. Celestine, then HE takes alle the wounds from small arms fire. So a battlecannon shot against St. Celestine won't neccesarily kill the Germinae. Only if Smashfucker fails to look-out-sir for St. Celestine will the wounds transfer unto the Germinae.

**rawne2510**

The LOS roll is made by the model hit not the model getting in the way. Celestine has to roll the LOS which she can´t do until her geminae are dead

**Nuclear Mekanik**

Can someone please clarify for me exactly what we mean by a 'Deathstar' ?? Thanks!

**Corvus_corax**

rawne2510 wrote:
The LOS roll is made by the model hit not the model getting in the way. Celestine has to roll the LOS which she can´t do until her geminae are dead

That is incorrect. LoS is rolled by the model 'Looking out for Sir' - the 'Sir' in this case being St. Celestine.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nuclear Mekanik wrote:
Can someone please clarify for me exactly what we mean by a 'Deathstar' ?? Thanks!

This is an example Death Star. All the models in Bold join the same unit to add many overlapping benefits to the unit which render it pretty much unkillable. The Chapter Master tanks all incoming fire. he has a 2+/3++/2+++ save aand will easily survive 120 shots from Eldar Scatterbikes, so you can't kill him with shooting, largely due to his 2+ FnP. The unit is Fearless, causes Fear, has +1 Attack, rerolls saves in close combat (Priest: War Hymns), rerolls to hit in round 1 of combat (zealot) , rerolls to wound (Priest: War Hymns), and has Hit & Run so you can't tie it down in combat. The librarians cast 4 spells on a 2+ and you will most likely always be invisible and will have 6 weapons that have Force (Instant Death). The unit is also ObSec. This is a Death Star.

Battle Demi-Company - Core
HQ1: Captain, Chapter Master upgrade, Space Marine Bike, Artificer Armour, The Gorgon's Chain(, Power Fist [240pts] (WARLORD)
EL1: Command Squad, Space Marine Bikes, Apothecary, 4x Storm Shield, 4x Gravgun, Standard of the Emperor Ascendant [300pts]
Troop1: Tactical Squad, Transport1 [70pts]
Troop2: Tactical Squad [70pts]
Troop3: Tactical Squad [70pts]
FA1: Attack Bike [40pts]
HS1: Devastator Squad [70pts]
Transport1: Drop Pod [35pts]

Honoured Ancients - Auxiliary
EL2: Dreadnought [100pts]

Librarius Conclave - Command
HQ2: Librarian(65), Force Axe(0), Jump Pack(15) [80pts]
HQ3: Librarian(65), Force Stave(0), Jump Pack(15), Mastery Level 2(25) [105pts]
HQ4: Librarian(65), Force Stave(0), Space Marine Bike(20), Mastery Level 2(25) [110pts]

Librarius Conclave - Command
HQ5: Librarian(65), Force Stave(0), Jump Pack(15) [80pts]
HQ6: Librarian(65), Force Stave(0), Space Marine Bike(20), Mastery Level 2(25) [110pts]
HQ7: Librarian(65), Force Stave(0), Space Marine Bike(20), Mastery Level 2(25) [110pts]

PRIMARY TOTAL: [1590pts]

SECONDARY DETACHMENT: Allied Detachment - Codex Adepta Sororitas

HQ1: Saint Celestine [135pts]
HQ2: Ministorum Priest, The Litanies of Faith[40pts]
HQ3: Ministorum Priest [25pts]
Troop1: Battle Sister Squad [60pts]

SECONDARY TOTAL: [260pts]

ROSTER TOTAL: [1850pts]
MODELS: 43
KP: 19
WC: 10

**rawne2510**

So how does a marine who doesn´t have the character profile able to roll look out sir from his sgt.

**Corvus_corax**

Characters are not the only one who can LoS. You look out sir on a 4+ for Characters, you look out sir on a 2+ for Independant character. But the one who is rolling is the one trying to save the character - ie. any model within 2", which can of course also be a generic space marine. This means that when Smashucker LoS to take the wounds for St. Celestine the wounds go onto him and not to St. Celestine nor then unto the Germinae.

Edit:
Disregard. I was mistaken.

**Nuclear Mekanik**

Corvus_corax wrote:
rawne2510 wrote:
The LOS roll is made by the model hit not the model getting in the way. Celestine has to roll the LOS which she can´t do until her geminae are dead

That is incorrect. LoS is rolled by the model 'Looking out for Sir' - the 'Sir' in this case being St. Celestine.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nuclear Mekanik wrote:
Can someone please clarify for me exactly what we mean by a 'Deathstar' ?? Thanks!

This is an example Death Star. All the models in Bold join the same unit to add many overlapping benefits to the unit which render it pretty much unkillable. The Chapter Master tanks all incoming fire. he has a 2+/3++/2+++ save aand will easily survive 120 shots from Eldar Scatterbikes, so you can't kill him with shooting, largely due to his 2+ FnP. The unit is Fearless, causes Fear, has +1 Attack, rerolls saves in close combat (Priest: War Hymns), rerolls to hit in round 1 of combat (zealot) , rerolls to wound (Priest: War Hymns), and has Hit & Run so you can't tie it down in combat. The librarians cast 4 spells on a 2+ and you will most likely always be invisible and will have 6 weapons that have Force (Instant Death). The unit is also ObSec. This is a Death Star.

Battle Demi-Company - Core
HQ1: Captain, Chapter Master upgrade, Space Marine Bike, Artificer Armour, The Gorgon's Chain(, Power Fist [240pts] (WARLORD)
EL1: Command Squad, Space Marine Bikes, Apothecary, 4x Storm Shield, 4x Gravgun, Standard of the Emperor Ascendant [300pts]
Troop1: Tactical Squad, Transport1 [70pts]
Troop2: Tactical Squad [70pts]
Troop3: Tactical Squad [70pts]
FA1: Attack Bike [40pts]
HS1: Devastator Squad [70pts]
Transport1: Drop Pod [35pts]

Honoured Ancients - Auxiliary
EL2: Dreadnought [100pts]

Librarius Conclave - Command
HQ2: Librarian(65), Force Axe(0), Jump Pack(15) [80pts]
HQ3: Librarian(65), Force Stave(0), Jump Pack(15), Mastery Level 2(25) [105pts]
HQ4: Librarian(65), Force Stave(0), Space Marine Bike(20), Mastery Level 2(25) [110pts]

Librarius Conclave - Command
HQ5: Librarian(65), Force Stave(0), Jump Pack(15) [80pts]
HQ6: Librarian(65), Force Stave(0), Space Marine Bike(20), Mastery Level 2(25) [110pts]
HQ7: Librarian(65), Force Stave(0), Space Marine Bike(20), Mastery Level 2(25) [110pts]

PRIMARY TOTAL: [1590pts]

SECONDARY DETACHMENT: Allied Detachment - Codex Adepta Sororitas

HQ1: Saint Celestine [135pts]
HQ2: Ministorum Priest, The Litanies of Faith[40pts]
HQ3: Ministorum Priest [25pts]
Troop1: Battle Sister Squad [60pts]

SECONDARY TOTAL: [260pts]

ROSTER TOTAL: [1850pts]
MODELS: 43
KP: 19
WC: 10

Lordy, that's not a very pleasant prospect!!

Thank you very much for taking the time to explain this properly!!

**rawne2510**

Corvus_corax wrote:
Characters are not the only one who can LoS. You look out sir on a 4+ for Characters, you look out sir on a 2+ for Independant character. But the one who is rolling is the one trying to save the character - ie. any model within 2", which can of course also be a generic space marine. This means that when Smashucker LoS to take the wounds for St. Celestine the wounds go onto him and not to St. Celestine nor then unto the Germinae.

Sorry corvus you are wrong. The rule for LOS is only under the character entry and is not a USR. It is the character that wants to pass of the wound that is rolling not the model trying to take the wound.

**Corvus_corax**

Hmm, I'll leave it for now then and will consult my rulebook later. Perhaps I should've done that in the first place.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
It seems you are correct, my apologies. However, even if St. Celestine can't tank for the unit (as wounds automatically pass to the germinae) one may still LoS for her. Or? And if not can one LoS for the Germinae?

**rawne2510**

I don´t believe the Geminae are characters so that wouldn´t be possible.

As for celestine LOS I think that her divine guardian rule would kick in first which slightly negates how good she is.