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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/01 08:50:32
Subject: Florida Man Stands His Ground
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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The USA is slightly behind a number of other western countries in terms of per capita drug use. These other countries (UK, Australia, Italy, New Zealand, for example) don't have murder cultures.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/01 09:05:40
Subject: Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Inspiring Icon Bearer
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Kilkrazy wrote:The USA is slightly behind a number of other western countries in terms of per capita drug use. These other countries ( UK, Australia, Italy, New Zealand, for example) don't have murder cultures.
And incidentally there are well-armed gangs and mafia types controlling the (illegal) drug trade that shoot each other up routinely and make up a disproportionately high number of murders. Those gangs do arm themselves illegally too (the meltdown of the Eastern Bloc and Balkan wars had a massive influx of illegal automatic weapons, grenades and whatnot that's still felt to this day)
That the US is unique on that regard is a myth.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/01 09:06:28
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/01 09:29:47
Subject: Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Calculating Commissar
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Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Prestor Jon wrote:I can't think of any benefit that would make me believe that punishing people for crimes they haven't committed yet and may never commit is worthwhile.
Keep going with that “punishment” narrative, it won't make it any truer. Someone deciding to give up on something is completely different from being punished. Now you personally you may not want to make that decision and you may be angry that other people's choice is forced upon you. But first, Herzlos did agree with this decision voluntarily and support it, so of course he doesn't feel punished and he is right not to, and second, that's how democracy work, sometime others people decisions are forced upon you. Coincidentally, it's also how fascism work and how communism work and how constitutional monarchy work, and basically how every political system work.
You ain't any more punished because gun control than you are punished because drug laws, or taxes, or traffic rules, or parking rules, or…
Exactly; you think it's a punishment to take guns off the majority because the risks are high. Most of the rest of the world said "You know what? That's fair, here's my gun." As I said, we've still got the ability to keep a gun, and could have done if we wanted, but decided that it just wasn't worth it. All I lose is a bit of cash and some hobby leeway, in exchange for it being impossible for anyone to be harmed by my guns. I can still get another one if I want to, either by getting a license or borrowing one at a range. I don't lose any self defense ability because people don't carry guns here, and I haven't lost any rights.
Thats where the US/World dividecomes in. You can't comprehend the loss of the 2nd the loss of the liberty to own and carry a gun, as you feel its integral to the ability to defend yourself, and we can'tcomprehend why you'd even want to carry a gun in self defense, becausse it's a sure fire way to get yourself shot or jailed. Especiaally since there doesn't seem to be any requirements on ownership like competence, secure storage or mental wellness, You don't let convicted felons buy guns, which is something I guess.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Vaktathi wrote: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Vaktathi wrote:The person giving up something isnt the one making the decision in this case, the decision is forced upon them.
That's not true. Each and every one of the persons making the decision are giving up something. Now of course it's a decision that needs to be made at a whole community level rather than at a personal level. Hence, some people who disagree are still forced to comply. Just like in every goddamn decision made at a community level.
Are each and every decisions made at a community level rather than at a personal one a punishment?
Such decisions generally dont involve forfeiture of established rights and physical property. Thats a huge distinction, and generally tends to have very messy consequences.
Any law which makes some tangible item illegal automatically means someone will lose out from either forfeiture or value. Banning alcohol presumably put a lot of distilleries/breweries under, same with drugs, lead paint, CFCs, and so on. Guns are no different.
But then, with guns you can always grandfather them out - let everyone keep what they currently have and make it significantly harder to get new ones, within a couple of generations gun ownership goes from being the norm to being the exception, no-one loses out on property or existing liberties. Automatically Appended Next Post: Relapse wrote:
I am not entirely sure of that statement since Japan has a higher suicide rate than the U.S., placing them at number 17 in the world compared to the the U.S. at number 50.
Japan has a very honour based culture that still makes suicide a far more likely occurance than it should be, so the rate of determined suiciders is much higher and gun access is irrelevant, since it's not opportunistic. Automatically Appended Next Post: Prestor Jon wrote:We already have child endangerment laws and child neglect laws and negligence laws. If you are irresponsible enough to let a minor get his/her hands on a loaded gun and accidentally game somebody or himself/herself then you will be charged and prosecuted. They're not gun specific laws but they cover guns. It's not like there's no legal ramifications to irresponsible gun ownership. A fence around a pool will keep kids from falling into it and drowning. There is no equivalent way to fence in all of the dozens or hundreds of objects in a home that have the potential for lethal accidents. Failure to be responsible with any of those objects can result in criminal charges. Different safeguards for different dangers.
So you're ok with a requirement to keep a fence round a pool, but not one that requires you to have secure storage before buying a gun? The child endangerment laws have a critical flaw in that they only really seem to come into play *after* the child is dead. Automatically Appended Next Post: stanman wrote:
I think that the US has a problem with violent murders largely because of the pervasive drug culture. The US consumes far more drugs than most other countries and that helps creates a stage for violence, both from criminal gang activities surrounding the drug trade and crimes committed while users are under the influence of those drugs. A very significant portion of violent crimes occur when somebody is high or drunk. Reduce the impact of the drug culture and it'd go a long way to reducing the murder rate in the US.
So the solution is to legalize drugs and kill off the gang control?
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This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/03/01 09:46:01
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/01 14:30:30
Subject: Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Fixture of Dakka
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Herzlos wrote:[we can'tcomprehend why you'd even want to carry a gun in self defense, becausse it's a sure fire way to get yourself shot or jailed. Especiaally since there doesn't seem to be any requirements on ownership like competence, secure storage or mental wellness, You don't let convicted felons buy guns, which is something I guess.
There are laws about mental wellness. You can't buy a gun if you are mentally ill, and you sure as heck can't carry one. Those of us with concealed carry permits are statistically one of the most law abiding, and safest people to be around. Statisically, a concealed carry permit holder is half as likely to commit a felony than a police officer. I believe we are also less likely than an Amish.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/01 14:39:14
Subject: Florida Man Stands His Ground
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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cuda1179 wrote:Herzlos wrote:[we can'tcomprehend why you'd even want to carry a gun in self defense, becausse it's a sure fire way to get yourself shot or jailed. Especiaally since there doesn't seem to be any requirements on ownership like competence, secure storage or mental wellness, You don't let convicted felons buy guns, which is something I guess.
There are laws about mental wellness. You can't buy a gun if you are mentally ill, and you sure as heck can't carry one. Those of us with concealed carry permits are statistically one of the most law abiding, and safest people to be around. Statisically, a concealed carry permit holder is half as likely to commit a felony than a police officer. I believe we are also less likely than an Amish.
Only nuns beat us, if you don't count the occasional political protest arrest.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/01 14:39:36
Subject: Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf
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cuda1179 wrote:There are laws about mental wellness. You can't buy a gun if you are mentally ill, and you sure as heck can't carry one.
Sounds to me like guns are a good reason for someone to not seek help with metal illness, because it'll prevent them from getting a gun if there's a background check.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/01 10:04:02
Subject: Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Calculating Commissar
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AllSeeingSkink wrote: cuda1179 wrote:There are laws about mental wellness. You can't buy a gun if you are mentally ill, and you sure as heck can't carry one.
Sounds to me like guns are a good reason for someone to not seek help with metal illness, because it'll prevent them from getting a gun if there's a background check.
There is that, too.
But didn't the Trump administration just start the motions to remove the restriction on buying guns if you're mentally ill?
I dare say concealed carry holders are on paper as the most law abiding, but what about everyone else?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/01 15:09:24
Subject: Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot
On moon miranda.
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Herzlos wrote:AllSeeingSkink wrote: cuda1179 wrote:There are laws about mental wellness. You can't buy a gun if you are mentally ill, and you sure as heck can't carry one.
Sounds to me like guns are a good reason for someone to not seek help with metal illness, because it'll prevent them from getting a gun if there's a background check.
There is that, too.
But didn't the Trump administration just start the motions to remove the restriction on buying guns if you're mentally ill?
It was just the part about using social security disability status as a reason deny a sale on a background check. If a court or conviction say you're not competent, that still stands and is not in contention.
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IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/01 15:11:48
Subject: Florida Man Stands His Ground
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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Herzlos wrote:AllSeeingSkink wrote: cuda1179 wrote:There are laws about mental wellness. You can't buy a gun if you are mentally ill, and you sure as heck can't carry one.
Sounds to me like guns are a good reason for someone to not seek help with metal illness, because it'll prevent them from getting a gun if there's a background check.
But didn't the Trump administration just start the motions to remove the restriction on buying guns if you're mentally ill?
That's a product of a misleading, hyperbolic headlines.... #FakeNews at it's finest.
The rule that the Obama administration pushed, would have allowed bureaucrats within one of our federal agencies to bar American citizens from exercising a constitutional right ... on the highly questionable grounds that to be incapable of managing one’s finances is, by definition, to be a “mental defective.”
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Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/01 15:14:56
Subject: Re:Florida Man Stands His Ground
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[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego
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.....
to be incapable of managing one’s finances is, by definition, to be a “mental defective
*looks at USA deficit *
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The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king, |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/01 15:17:59
Subject: Re:Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard
Catskills in NYS
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I'm just going to throw my opinion out here. I'm personally fine with CC. I think it's a bit silly, but that's not nearly enough reason to make it illegal. I do, however, believe that to get a CC permit, you should have to show basic competency, ect. Considering the complete lack of basic gun safety that is shown a lot of the time, I'd say it's fair that you have to show you know it before you accidentally shoot someone (or leave a gun unattended where a child shoots someone or themselves) .
I do have an issue with Joe-Schmo thinking that he can act like some old movie cowboy and acting as judge, jury, and executioner. Deadly force is a last resort to only be used against deadly force.
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Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote:Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote:Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens BaronIveagh wrote:Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/01 15:26:36
Subject: Re:Florida Man Stands His Ground
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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reds8n wrote:
.....
to be incapable of managing one’s finances is, by definition, to be a “mental defective
*looks at USA deficit *
...
It's not real debt... sebster told me so.
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Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/01 15:28:26
Subject: Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Herzlos wrote:AllSeeingSkink wrote: cuda1179 wrote:There are laws about mental wellness. You can't buy a gun if you are mentally ill, and you sure as heck can't carry one.
Sounds to me like guns are a good reason for someone to not seek help with metal illness, because it'll prevent them from getting a gun if there's a background check.
There is that, too.
But didn't the Trump administration just start the motions to remove the restriction on buying guns if you're mentally ill?
I dare say concealed carry holders are on paper as the most law abiding, but what about everyone else?
We're all innocent until proven guilty so we all get the benefit of the doubt. Everyone gets to exercise their rights until they prove to society that they can't be trusted to do so responsibly.
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Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/01 15:31:19
Subject: Re:Florida Man Stands His Ground
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Co'tor Shas wrote:I'm just going to throw my opinion out here. I'm personally fine with CC. I think it's a bit silly, but that's not nearly enough reason to make it illegal. I do, however, believe that to get a CC permit, you should have to show basic competency, ect. Considering the complete lack of basic gun safety that is shown a lot of the time, I'd say it's fair that you have to show you know it before you accidentally shoot someone (or leave a gun unattended where a child shoots someone or themselves) .
I do have an issue with Joe-Schmo thinking that he can act like some old movie cowboy and acting as judge, jury, and executioner. Deadly force is a last resort to only be used against deadly force.
Most states have substantial requirements for CHL now.
As has been discussed ad nauseum, most states require that you may not use lethal defense except to protect against deadly force, grievous harm, and usually major felonies (like rape, armed robbery etc.)
Now in Texas we have to bring in certified copies where we have successfully hunted down a chupacabra. The alternative of hunting down a Yankee was struck out of the law way back in 2014.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/01 15:40:46
Subject: Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Inspiring Icon Bearer
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Frazzled wrote: cuda1179 wrote:Herzlos wrote:[we can'tcomprehend why you'd even want to carry a gun in self defense, becausse it's a sure fire way to get yourself shot or jailed. Especiaally since there doesn't seem to be any requirements on ownership like competence, secure storage or mental wellness, You don't let convicted felons buy guns, which is something I guess.
There are laws about mental wellness. You can't buy a gun if you are mentally ill, and you sure as heck can't carry one. Those of us with concealed carry permits are statistically one of the most law abiding, and safest people to be around. Statisically, a concealed carry permit holder is half as likely to commit a felony than a police officer. I believe we are also less likely than an Amish.
Only nuns beat us, if you don't count the occasional political protest arrest.
Again, the figure of concealed carry exists in most developed countries. With my background I could perfectly apply for one, I just don't want much less need to.
All developed countries are somewhere between a Somalia-style free-for-all and a total ban.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/01 15:43:54
Subject: Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Fixture of Dakka
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Seriously, does the rest of the world think half of Americans have a revolver on their hip waiting to shoot someone for littering?
The fun fact is that once you get out of certain areas of the US (Chicago, D.C., Detroit, etc.) the murder rate is about the same as western Europe. My little area (about the size of a European country) is actually lower, despite having more guns per capital than Chicago.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/01 15:47:43
Subject: Re:Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard
Catskills in NYS
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Frazzled wrote: Co'tor Shas wrote:I'm just going to throw my opinion out here. I'm personally fine with CC. I think it's a bit silly, but that's not nearly enough reason to make it illegal. I do, however, believe that to get a CC permit, you should have to show basic competency, ect. Considering the complete lack of basic gun safety that is shown a lot of the time, I'd say it's fair that you have to show you know it before you accidentally shoot someone (or leave a gun unattended where a child shoots someone or themselves) .
I do have an issue with Joe-Schmo thinking that he can act like some old movie cowboy and acting as judge, jury, and executioner. Deadly force is a last resort to only be used against deadly force.
Most states have substantial requirements for CHL now.
As has been discussed ad nauseum, most states require that you may not use lethal defense except to protect against deadly force, grievous harm, and usually major felonies (like rape, armed robbery etc.)
Now in Texas we have to bring in certified copies where we have successfully hunted down a chupacabra. The alternative of hunting down a Yankee was struck out of the law way back in 2014.
Yup, it's why I'm pretty OK with the current system. Could certainly use improvement (nothing is perfect), but it's pretty good.
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Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote:Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote:Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens BaronIveagh wrote:Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/01 15:54:56
Subject: Re:Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf
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reds8n wrote:
.....
to be incapable of managing one’s finances is, by definition, to be a “mental defective
*looks at USA deficit *
...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/01 15:57:49
Subject: Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Missionary On A Mission
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I think one of the problems that sometimes gets forgotten is the majority of Americans don't own a gun (or even want to own a gun). But because of the 2nd amendment, these people are affected by the large amount of guns in America.
Cops are more frightened and more likely to use deadly force because anyone they face could have a gun. People (mostly in cities) have to worry about being assaulted or killed by people with guns. This is definitely influenced by how easily accessible guns are. There has to be a way to decrease how prevalent it is for a criminal to get weapons.
It feels like the people who do not have to deal with gun violence have decided "Well, my ability to have fun with firearms is more important than all the death and destruction they cause."
Edit: Rural and Suburban people's easy access to guns makes things more difficult for people in urban areas. It can be frustrating.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/01 16:00:08
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/01 16:00:07
Subject: Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf
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cuda1179 wrote:Seriously, does the rest of the world think half of Americans have a revolver on their hip waiting to shoot someone for littering?
No, and I'm not sure why you keep thinking that we do. No one that I can see have promoted the idea that a large portion of Americans want to shoot people for trivial reasons. No one has promoted that a large portion of Americans are irresponsible with their guns.
People are promoting the idea that having a large number of guns in the community makes people in the community as a whole more prone to suffering from a bad case of being shot dead.
The fun fact is that once you get out of certain areas of the US (Chicago, D.C., Detroit, etc.) the murder rate is about the same as western Europe. My little area (about the size of a European country) is actually lower, despite having more guns per capital than Chicago.
Yeah, so basically crime is more likely to exist where you have lots of people crammed in close in a city. If the rest of the western world manages a murder rate as low as rural areas in spite of also having large cities, then it still means they have lower murder rates. If I recall correctly Australia has a similar if not higher density of the population in cities as the US.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/01 16:03:14
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/01 16:01:16
Subject: Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Fixture of Dakka
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AdeptSister wrote:It feels like the people who do not have to deal with gun violence have decided "Well, my ability to have fun with firearms is more important than all the death and destruction they cause."
More like "my ability to exercise my Constitutionally-protected right to keep and bear arms for whatever reason I see fit is more important than disarmament due to a statistically insignificant number of people misusing them".
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"The Omnissiah is my Moderati" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/01 16:05:38
Subject: Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Calculating Commissar
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cuda1179 wrote:Seriously, does the rest of the world think half of Americans have a revolver on their hip waiting to shoot someone for littering?
Nah we only really hear about toddlers and mass shootings, so the impression we get is that an awful lot of you aren't competent to be owning guns, and the system encourages that abuse.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/01 16:09:41
Subject: Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Fixture of Dakka
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Herzlos wrote: cuda1179 wrote:Seriously, does the rest of the world think half of Americans have a revolver on their hip waiting to shoot someone for littering?
Nah we only really hear about toddlers and mass shootings, so the impression we get is that an awful lot of you aren't competent to be owning guns, and the system encourages that abuse.
Then that's a terribly inaccurate impression, likely formed from only hearing sensationalist headlines designed to make money rather than reporting the likes of "tens of millions of gun owners used their firearms without incident today", which does not sell as well as bad news.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/01 16:15:01
"The Omnissiah is my Moderati" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/01 16:14:16
Subject: Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Missionary On A Mission
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Nostromodamus wrote: AdeptSister wrote:It feels like the people who do not have to deal with gun violence have decided "Well, my ability to have fun with firearms is more important than all the death and destruction they cause."
More like "my ability to exercise my Constitutionally-protected right to keep and bear arms for whatever reason I see fit is more important than disarmament due to a statistically insignificant number of people misusing them".
The gun death rate is statistically insignificant?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/01 16:18:37
Subject: Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Fixture of Dakka
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AdeptSister wrote: Nostromodamus wrote: AdeptSister wrote:It feels like the people who do not have to deal with gun violence have decided "Well, my ability to have fun with firearms is more important than all the death and destruction they cause."
More like "my ability to exercise my Constitutionally-protected right to keep and bear arms for whatever reason I see fit is more important than disarmament due to a statistically insignificant number of people misusing them".
The gun death rate is statistically insignificant?
CDC places firearm deaths in 2016 per 100,000 population as 10.6, which is 0.0106%, so yes.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/01 16:20:10
"The Omnissiah is my Moderati" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/01 16:28:44
Subject: Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Herzlos wrote: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Prestor Jon wrote:I can't think of any benefit that would make me believe that punishing people for crimes they haven't committed yet and may never commit is worthwhile.
Keep going with that “punishment” narrative, it won't make it any truer. Someone deciding to give up on something is completely different from being punished. Now you personally you may not want to make that decision and you may be angry that other people's choice is forced upon you. But first, Herzlos did agree with this decision voluntarily and support it, so of course he doesn't feel punished and he is right not to, and second, that's how democracy work, sometime others people decisions are forced upon you. Coincidentally, it's also how fascism work and how communism work and how constitutional monarchy work, and basically how every political system work.
You ain't any more punished because gun control than you are punished because drug laws, or taxes, or traffic rules, or parking rules, or…
Exactly; you think it's a punishment to take guns off the majority because the risks are high. Most of the rest of the world said "You know what? That's fair, here's my gun." As I said, we've still got the ability to keep a gun, and could have done if we wanted, but decided that it just wasn't worth it. All I lose is a bit of cash and some hobby leeway, in exchange for it being impossible for anyone to be harmed by my guns. I can still get another one if I want to, either by getting a license or borrowing one at a range. I don't lose any self defense ability because people don't carry guns here, and I haven't lost any rights.
Thats where the US/World dividecomes in. You can't comprehend the loss of the 2nd the loss of the liberty to own and carry a gun, as you feel its integral to the ability to defend yourself, and we can't comprehend why you'd even want to carry a gun in self defense, because it's a sure fire way to get yourself shot or jailed. Especially since there doesn't seem to be any requirements on ownership like competence, secure storage or mental wellness, You don't let convicted felons buy guns, which is something I guess.
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Vaktathi wrote: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Vaktathi wrote:The person giving up something isnt the one making the decision in this case, the decision is forced upon them.
That's not true. Each and every one of the persons making the decision are giving up something. Now of course it's a decision that needs to be made at a whole community level rather than at a personal level. Hence, some people who disagree are still forced to comply. Just like in every goddamn decision made at a community level.
Are each and every decisions made at a community level rather than at a personal one a punishment?
Such decisions generally dont involve forfeiture of established rights and physical property. Thats a huge distinction, and generally tends to have very messy consequences.
Any law which makes some tangible item illegal automatically means someone will lose out from either forfeiture or value. Banning alcohol presumably put a lot of distilleries/breweries under, same with drugs, lead paint, CFCs, and so on. Guns are no different.
But then, with guns you can always grandfather them out - let everyone keep what they currently have and make it significantly harder to get new ones, within a couple of generations gun ownership goes from being the norm to being the exception, no-one loses out on property or existing liberties.
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Prestor Jon wrote:We already have child endangerment laws and child neglect laws and negligence laws. If you are irresponsible enough to let a minor get his/her hands on a loaded gun and accidentally game somebody or himself/herself then you will be charged and prosecuted. They're not gun specific laws but they cover guns. It's not like there's no legal ramifications to irresponsible gun ownership. A fence around a pool will keep kids from falling into it and drowning. There is no equivalent way to fence in all of the dozens or hundreds of objects in a home that have the potential for lethal accidents. Failure to be responsible with any of those objects can result in criminal charges. Different safeguards for different dangers.
So you're ok with a requirement to keep a fence round a pool, but not one that requires you to have secure storage before buying a gun? The child endangerment laws have a critical flaw in that they only really seem to come into play *after* the child is dead.
Whatever term you want to use to describe it, it's still the removal of a right from a person that is innocent of any wrongdoing but is now no longer allowed to exercise that right based solely on the actions of a completely different person and the hypothetical possibility of future actions that may be taken by the individual. That kind of logic is never going to make sense to me.
The most important aspect of my rights to keep and bear arms isn't the benefit it gives me in regard to my right to defend myself, the most important aspect to me is that it is integral to my ability to be free. I believe in ensuring the maximum amount of individual liberty that can exist in society.
The US already currently has more restrictions on gun ownership than in any other time in our national history. Prior to 1998 we didn't even have a national system for criminal background checks for purchasers, just forms for purchasers to fill out that required truthful (but unverified) answers. Throughout US history we've allowed citizens to own the equivalent of military small arms with minimal restrictions. There's no significant differences between the rifles that have been issued to our military over the years and the ones available for civilian purchase, from muskets to bolt action and lever action rifles to semi auto rifles, from flintlock pistols to revolvers to semi auto pistols too. We let civilians own semi auto rifles when we were issuing M1 Garands which is no different in principle than letting civilians own AR15s when we're issuing semi auto M4s. American citizens were just as responsible, trustworthy and entitled to their rights to keep and bear arms back then as now. There's no compelling interest to change that.
We may not agree on this topic but I do appreciate the discussion and your efforts in contributing to it so cheers for that.
Ending the private ownership of guns would require a lot of legislative work and new judicial precedents set at each level of government. Repealing the 2A doesn't get rid of all the federal laws regarding gun ownership and it wouldn't make gun ownership illegal. New Federal laws would have to be passed after the 2A was repealed and those laws would have to be upheld by Federal courts. However, those new Federal laws wouldn't strip away any of the existing state laws and state constitutional protections. Each state would have to independently repeal any clauses in their state constitutions that codify rights for residents to own firearms and then each state would have to pass new legislation that prohibited firearm ownership. Of course none of that would address the 300+ million firearms already in private hands (nationally over 2 million guns are purchased each month) because current owners would have ex post facto protection from new anti gun laws so you'd have enough guns to arm every member of the populace remaining in civilian hands until such time as people voluntarily disposed of them or they wore out. The best case scenario for removing guns from civilian ownership would take years to implement and leave hundreds of millions of guns in civilian hands for the foreseeable future and that that best case scenario gets harder to implement as more time passes.
Pools that are exterior structures should be governed by building codes and municipal/state ordinances and be required to have fences just like stairs can be required to have handrails. There are dozens to hundreds of dangerous items in a home that can be involved in lethal or harmful accidents with children yet we don't have safe storage laws for them all. Accidental poisonings cause far more deaths than accidental discharges of firearms but there's no law requiring how I store household cleaning products or other harmful substances in my home that could harm my children and law enforcement doesn't violate my 4th amendment rights by showing up to do surprise inspections to make sure they're secure. There's no law that sets storage standards for my steak knives or axes or chainsaws or power tools and they could all kill my kids too. There's no law that requires my house to be child proofed before I bring a newborn home from the hospital. I don't see a compelling reason to make guns a special case for storage laws and I don't see the point in passing unenforceable laws. LEOs don't have the right or the time to go around inspecting homes to see if the 300+ million privately owned firearms are safely stored so the only time the law would come into play would be after the fact of an accident or as an additional charge after police arrive for a different reason.
All of our laws are reactive laws, there are no pre-emptive laws where you can be charged with a crime before you do something wrong so child endangerment and child neglect laws are no different from all our other laws in that regard. Those laws cover parents/guardians/adults being negligent with any of the myriad dangerous objects and substances in a home which cause more accidental deaths than guns as well as guns so I don't see a need for additional laws just for guns.
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Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/01 16:28:53
Subject: Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf
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Nostromodamus wrote: AdeptSister wrote: Nostromodamus wrote: AdeptSister wrote:It feels like the people who do not have to deal with gun violence have decided "Well, my ability to have fun with firearms is more important than all the death and destruction they cause."
More like "my ability to exercise my Constitutionally-protected right to keep and bear arms for whatever reason I see fit is more important than disarmament due to a statistically insignificant number of people misusing them".
The gun death rate is statistically insignificant?
CDC places firearm deaths in 2016 per 100,000 population as 10.6, which is 0.0106%, so yes.
Well, that's per year, if you live to 100 you would have had roughly 1% chance of being killed by a firearm.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/01 16:30:43
Subject: Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Missionary On A Mission
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I can only find the 2014 CDC numbers: Homicide are 5 with Gun Homicides are 3.4.
So is the argument is that Homicides are statistically irrelevant?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/01 16:34:59
Subject: Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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AdeptSister wrote:I think one of the problems that sometimes gets forgotten is the majority of Americans don't own a gun (or even want to own a gun). But because of the 2nd amendment, these people are affected by the large amount of guns in America.
Cops are more frightened and more likely to use deadly force because anyone they face could have a gun. People (mostly in cities) have to worry about being assaulted or killed by people with guns. This is definitely influenced by how easily accessible guns are. There has to be a way to decrease how prevalent it is for a criminal to get weapons.
It feels like the people who do not have to deal with gun violence have decided "Well, my ability to have fun with firearms is more important than all the death and destruction they cause."
Edit: Rural and Suburban people's easy access to guns makes things more difficult for people in urban areas. It can be frustrating.
The desire of urban people to obtain guns and murder people with them has nothing to do with rural and suburban people. Urban areas need to do a better job of dealing with all of the socio economic issues that result in gang infested high crime poverty stricken neighborhoods and ghettos instead of scapegoating people who live in other areas for the problem. Automatically Appended Next Post: AdeptSister wrote:I can only find the 2014 CDC numbers: Homicide are 5 with Gun Homicides are 3.4.
So is the argument is that Homicides are statistically irrelevant?
Yes. In a nation of approximately 320,000,000 people having 10,000 homicides per year via firearm isn't the sign of a major problem with gun violence. Violent crime has been decreasing for decades and gun sales have been steadily increasing.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/01 16:38:13
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/01 16:39:09
Subject: Florida Man Stands His Ground
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Missionary On A Mission
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Thank you for your honesty.
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