Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Scions can serve as stealth/infiltrators, they're special forces, their role is really varied

epronovost wrote:
He has it on the exact same circomstances with the same sort of efficiency (which is rather average). Both of them are sniper specialists. The only different is that one is behind friendly lines and uses several drones piloted simultaniously thanks to a drone controler, which according to its description doesn't have any sort of advanced targetting device. If it has it in its description outside of your imagination, please show it to me else we might very well say that this tau who are no superior to humans in terms of capacity is just that good of a shot. The drone controller is described as screen and controler for a handful of drones with an integrated Markerlight System that can boost its BS further. The only difference between the two of them is that Insidias Scions line their shot without having to proxy through a drone and operate behind enemy line instead of behind friendly lines. BTW, snipers are heavy weapons by pure definition of the rule. They are all heavy 1. so is this one.

But your "sniper" lacks the actual Sniper rule. It's no more a sniper than a lascannon.

S6 AP: 3 on BS5 platfrom will kill surely one man per turn per man UNLESS they have cover saves, invulnerable saves, feel no pain, reanimation protocol, you know stuff that everybody can get or easily ignore thanks to numbers (who cares about three dead orks per turn). At 35 pts pieces, just shoot them with an ignore cover weapon like, let say a Whirlwind, or worse a Wyverne that cost less than the full squad and outrange them by 18' and your problem has just disapeared in a big ass explosion.

A Wyvern/Whirlwind has no AP4 Ignores Cover shell.

After play testing them, no, they are rather well priced and not all that dangerous, but they are pretty good at killing high value elite units that aren't TEQ or in dense cover. They are no better, point for point, than Tau Sniper Drones units.

I don't care about three dead Orks or Guardsmen. I care about the three dead Sternguard Veterans that just got shot by people with better BS than them.

An Imperial Guard Junior Officer Stats is WS: 4, BS: 4, S: 3, T: 3, W: 1, I: 3, A: 2, Ld: 8, Sv: 5+. The base stats of a guardsmen is WS: 3 BS: 3, S: 3, T: 3, W: 1, I: 3, A: 1, Ld: 7, Sv: 5+, a sergent guardsmen is WS: 3 BS: 3, S: 3, T: 3, W: 1, I: 3, A: 2, Ld: 8, Sv: 5+. A Tempestor Secundus is WS: 4, BS: 5, S: 3, T: 3, W: 2, I: 4, A: 2, Ld: 8, SV; 4+. Compared to the base stats of a Tempestus Scion the boost is almost identical as the boost between Junior Officers and regular guardsmen which is what they are supposed to be Junior Officers. Yes, junior officers always had superior stats to sergent and regular troopers because being an officer and not just as squad leader means higher stats in 40K.

Yes, but your JUNIOR officers being better shots than Space Marines? The scale between a Guard Sergeant and Platoon Officer is pretty big. There are lots of Sergeants, far less Platoon Commanders, because Sergeants tend to be killed off easily enough. Your Scions don't have such a rate of attrition, and as such, wouldn't have such a power gap.

Not to mention the fact you have Junior Officers leading basic units instead of Sergeants - you just removed Sergeants with a logical power gap, and just made every Sergeant an officer. That makes no sense. Make your Sergeants actual Sergeants, and then have Junior Officers as the rarer role they are, worthy of the BS upgrade.

Scions are human and none of them is surpassing the superhuman Space Marines at anything but stealth (and even then, Raven Guard equals them in that domain and all others).

Except the Raven Guard are renowned as being EXTRAORDINARLY stealthy. If you gave base Scions stealth, they become better at Stealth than the actual Stealth specialists of the Marines - the Scouts.

BS 5 isn't above and behond what Space Marines can have.

No - it's above what MOST Space Marines have. Your SERGEANT equivalents are better shots that Space Marines who have probably tripled, quadrupled their lifespan and seen so much more conflict.
BS5 isn't above what Space Marines *can* have. It's above what Space Marines, barring a few exceptions (their LEADERS, not Sergeants or Veterans) *DO* have.

Why should i care more about what Space Marines have with Scouts and Sternguard than what Tau and Orks have with units that are actually closer in design and battlefield roles? Space Marines aren't really closer to humans than orks or taus except perhapse in general appearence.

Because this game is also about the fluff. And fluff dictates that Scions and Space Marines are both human. However, one is an elite human, other is an elite SUPERhuman. That kind of limits Scions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Scions can serve as stealth/infiltrators, they're special forces, their role is really varied

It doesn't seem that way. They have heavy armour, short ranged weapons, and lots of fast, loud vehicles. Not exactly stealth material.

Not to mention that they are regarded as STORM troopers - not STEALTH troopers. I understand they're special forces, and are very good at it. They're the best human soldiers, possibly barring Sororitas, for a reason. But they're specialised at being SHOCK troops. Not stealth.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


My standard bloke is a man or woman with a training and a quality that compares to a fully trained Space Marine (AKA a young Devastator, but who lacks all the genetic enhancement that makes the Space Marine superior) in the same domain than that of the ork kommando.

So they wouldn't have stealth then. In fact, if they were as well trained as a Devastator, they would have WS4 and BS4. S, T, I, W, A, Ld would not be affected for this. Devastators have no Stealth. Why should yours?

Eldar Rangers are elite force. They have literally dedicated their entire, excessively long, life to being snipers.
They weren't simply found to be a good shot during basic.
From a fluff perspective your humans, no matter how experianced, cannot be reconciled as better shots than space marine specialists. Even if we assume Sternguards are right on the cusp of being BS5 and Insidious' on the cusp of being BS4, it's just not happening in the fluff. Same for gameplay, your Insidious have half the miss rate, that is HUGE.

Whether or not you feel snipers fit your wish of a weapon capable of blowing holes through marines, that's what they are. Every single army follows that, why are you special?

Black ops does not equal everyone gets stealth and move through cover. In the fluff space marines are scalpels, that doesn't mean they all get precision shots or whatever.

epronovost wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


My standard bloke is a man or woman with a training and a quality that compares to a fully trained Space Marine (AKA a young Devastator, but who lacks all the genetic enhancement that makes the Space Marine superior) in the same domain than that of the ork kommando.

So they wouldn't have stealth then. In fact, if they were as well trained as a Devastator, they would have WS4 and BS4. S, T, I, W, A, Ld would not be affected for this. Devastators have no Stealth. Why should yours?

You missed the second part of the argument that says they have the same training quality than young devastator Marines, but specialised in Black op. not as Shock Troopers like Devastator. You can repeat that you believe Scions to be shock troopers, I will repeat that they are Black op.

So you just have them better rifles than Space Marines get because... why?

 JNAProductions wrote:
So you just have them better rifles than Space Marines get because... why?

Because they need to be good, so instead of fixing snipers, just give them better guns and abilities than Space Marines.

Stormtrooper is just a name, like JTF2 or Delta Force, if you base everything of names, why aren't SPACE Marines limited to SPACE operations, or ship board operations?

Why are GUARDsmen used as an offensive, when clearly their name means they must be GUARDing everything.

And he's not retconning Scion, he litteraly said he's using the newest codex as an inspiration. They are one of the Imperium Black Ops unit, but they're also used as schock troops.

And lastly, its nice to see not all the good is reserved to Space Marines, using their existence as an argument to prevent other Imperial faction from having nice things is a real slap to the face.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Stormtrooper is just a name, like JTF2 or Delta Force

What about what this then?

Lexicanum wrote:Tempestus Scions, also known as Storm Troopers in Low Gothic, are the elite shock troops of the Imperial Guard and Militarum Tempestus.

They're shock troops. It literally says so.

And he's not retconning Scion, he litteraly said he's using the newest codex as an inspiration. They are one of the Imperium Black Ops unit, but they're also used as schock troops.

Does it mention about their ability at stealth? It mentions that, in their role as Shock Troops, they are skilled at Deep Striking, recon, and infiltration. These are all better represented with the USRs they correspond to.
Nothing to do with stealth. Once Scions deviate from their intended role as shock troops, as GW have stated, they are not really Scions any more.

And lastly, its nice to see not all the good is reserved to Space Marines, using their existence as an argument to prevent other Imperial faction from having nice things is a real slap to the face.

Scions are, by fluff, no more skilled than an Astartes. That's their niche - more numerous than Marines, more skilled than Guard. They fill their own niche, but are NOT SM tier. That doesn't mean they can't be balanced to fight Marines. It just means that a Scion's stats, namely BS, should not be better than a Marines', for fluff reasons.
If you want Scions to have better snipers, use the sniper rules and actually improve all snipers. At the moment, these "snipers" are just as much a sniper as a Devastator Squad with lascannons.

Why not have something similar to D-99 'Decimator' Squads?
1-4 Veterans, 1-4 Veteran snipers.
Veteran snipers get a sniper rifle (not a pocket lascannon)
Veterans can get magnoculars (give the snipers a 60'' range and night vision)

Now, fitting that into Scions a bit better.
Give the squad access to camo cloaks, perhaps make them hotshot snipers (let's face it, wounding on a 4+ is a nice benefit for small arms hot-shot lasfire)



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I'm still not sure exactly what role Armis Scions perform, at least from a fluff perspective.
They're tanky melee troops, meant to slowly advance under fire protecting those behind.
That just doesn't fit any of the previously mentioned Scion roles (Deep striking, infiltrating and scouting).

They could also get the Hellshot mentionned in one of the older book, its essentially a sniper using autocannon round.

 Bobthehero wrote:
They could also get the Hellshot mentionned in one of the older book, its essentially a sniper using autocannon round.

Strength 7 AP4 Heavy 1?
Yeah I suppose.
I'd think they should either get a conventional sniper like everyone else ever. Or perhaps a 36'' AP3 sniper weapon. You've still got a sniper rifle that astartes would be envious of. (BTW I'm pretty sure astartes snipers are described in the fluff as being hot-shot weapons, so really you're taking liberties if you use the AP3 one).

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Also, I'm still not sure exactly what role Armis Scions perform, at least from a fluff perspective.
They're tanky melee troops, meant to slowly advance under fire protecting those behind.
That just doesn't fit any of the previously mentioned Scion roles (Deep striking, infiltrating and scouting).

I could see a use for the Arnis, but it would be a singular use. As Shock Troops, having a bulwark unit, so to speak, would be effective, especially at setting up breachheads and whatnot. However, they could easily have less of a melee focus, if necessary, or even a double profile - a melee one, and an arbalest sort of unit, using shieldwalls to draw enemy fire, and providing cover for the rest of the Scions?

They could have a use, less so for infiltration or scouting, but certainly as a shock unit, they work.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
They could also get the Hellshot mentionned in one of the older book, its essentially a sniper using autocannon round.

Strength 7 AP4 Heavy 1?
Yeah I suppose.

Something like that, with a reroll to penetrate because its described as anti-materiel rifle. And the sniper rules.

The longlas-hotshot pack vs hotshot laguns is a bit of mess to be honest, it was simpler when hotshots were named hellguns (tho they lacked AP3)

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Also, I'm still not sure exactly what role Armis Scions perform, at least from a fluff perspective.
They're tanky melee troops, meant to slowly advance under fire protecting those behind.
That just doesn't fit any of the previously mentioned Scion roles (Deep striking, infiltrating and scouting).

I could see a use for the Arnis, but it would be a singular use. As Shock Troops, having a bulwark unit, so to speak, would be effective, especially at setting up breachheads and whatnot. However, they could easily have less of a melee focus, if necessary, or even a double profile - a melee one, and an arbalest sort of unit, using shieldwalls to draw enemy fire, and providing cover for the rest of the Scions?

They could have a use, less so for infiltration or scouting, but certainly as a shock unit, they work.

I like that arbalest idea. Perhaps taking a leaf out of the 30k Legion Breachers book?
Not sure what guns they would have though. Shotguns? The S4 ones. Maybe with upgrade options for grenade launchers?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
They could also get the Hellshot mentionned in one of the older book, its essentially a sniper using autocannon round.

Strength 7 AP4 Heavy 1?
Yeah I suppose.

Something like that, with a reroll to penetrate because its described as anti-materiel rifle. And the sniper rules.

The longlas-hotshot pack vs hotshot laguns is a bit of mess to be honest, it was simpler when hotshots were named hellguns (tho they lacked AP3)

I reckon rending would cover the anti-material part.

I meant what I said as in astartes snipers are full on hotshot sniper rifles, backpack power supply and everything.
I have to agree on the hellguns thing though, but alas.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Lexicanum wrote:Tempestus Scions, also known as Storm Troopers in Low Gothic, are the elite shock troops of the Imperial Guard and Militarum Tempestus.[1] They are trained to carry out special operations such as deep strike assaults, reconnaissance and infiltration beyond enemy lines.

As we can see, emphasis on being SHOCK troops. We see they are speciliased in Deep Striking (which can be represented by the Deep Strike rule), reconnaissance (represented by the Scout USR) and infiltration (represented by the Infiltrate USR).
Nothing highlights a skill in stealth. Now, let's compare that to Scouts. their role is to range ahead of the main Space Marine force, preparing the way for the main advance by infiltrating enemy lines, sabotaging and gathering intelligence..

So, as we see, infiltrating (Infiltrate USR), gathering intelligence, the role of a Scout (Scout USR).

Scouts operate behind enemy lines. Why shouldn't they get Stealth, to represent how they got back there in the first place?

In addition, you say in one part of your post that you're continuing the trend GW gave them, and then later in the same post, say you're doing it because you want your portrayal, not GW's.

If you don't want to fix Snipers, accept that the Sniper rule is only good, not ridiculously good. Don't just give your guys something that's many times better than real snipers. (Wounds T1-4 almost twice as well, T5 better, T6 the same, and only gets worse against the highly uncommon T7+. And if they're a gargantuan, you wound the same for T8-9. In addition, it is THREE TIMES as good at popping AV 10 (not even accounting for its chances to pen) and can threaten even Land Raiders.)

I agree with you on Kroot. Scouts might be the worst space marines-they've still got at least a decade of training, grew up on a death world in all probability, were the top 1% of humanity BEFORE being a space marine, and just in general are miles beyond any modern day human. And who cares whether something is a troop or elite choice? That doesn't make the Eldar Army any less elite.

Space Marines can't grab all the best humans all the time, I am pretty sure there's a fair amount of either Guardsmen or Scions who are more skilled than some of the peoples the Marines take.

An Assault Shotgun with Auxiliary Grenade Launcher was added as an option instead of the Shock Sword to the Arnis Scions for +5 pts per model. The profile is bellow.

range: 12, S: 4, AP: -, Assault 2

The Insidias Heavy Rifle was returned to Hot-Shot Sniper and changed from profile 1 to profile 2

1) range: 30, S: 6, AP: 3, heavy 1, pinning, rending, precision shot

2) range: 48, S: X, AP: 3, heavy 1, Sniper

I am currently thinking about giving them the option for an anti-armor, one use only special shot (basically it would give armorbane), but I don't think I will do it since that seems a bit too good and not very necessary.

Hot-shot snipers shouldn't have 48'' range, regular snipers have that.
Give it 36'' range to follow the 25% reduction you see on the HS-lasgun.
I agree, leave the anti-tank shell out of the Insidious.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Hot-shot snipers shouldn't have 48'' range, regular snipers have that.
Give it 36'' range to follow the 25% reduction you see on the HS-lasgun.
I agree, leave the anti-tank shell out of the Insidious.

It would be logical indeed for them to have a reduced range like all other Hot-Shot weapons, but the damage output of this unit would become too low for what they need to be able to do and too vulnerable for to enemy fire. Unless I make their sniper rapid fire instead of heavy. In that case reduced range to 36' could work. So far, I have played Insidias twice with their older profile and they were doing a lot of damage, but were relatively easy to deny and kill even with shrouded. The change is meant to make them more survivable at the cost of damage output (and its a severe damage reduction, they should kill twice less enemy units).

epronovost wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Hot-shot snipers shouldn't have 48'' range, regular snipers have that.
Give it 36'' range to follow the 25% reduction you see on the HS-lasgun.
I agree, leave the anti-tank shell out of the Insidious.

It would be logical indeed for them to have a reduced range like all other Hot-Shot weapons, but the damage output of this unit would become too low for what they need to be able to do and too vulnerable for to enemy fire. Unless I make their sniper rapid fire instead of heavy. In that case reduced range to 36' could work. So far, I have played Insidias twice with their older profile and they were doing a lot of damage, but were relatively easy to deny and kill even with shrouded. The change is meant to make them more survivable at the cost of damage output (and its a severe damage reduction, they should kill twice less enemy units).

You can always lower the points.
But I don't think you should ignore the way things are because it doesn't suit.
You want to have your cake and eat it too, but that isn't how the world works.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

You can always lower the points.
But I don't think you should ignore the way things are because it doesn't suit.
You want to have your cake and eat it too, but that isn't how the world works.

The way I see it, they are fine and balanced in terms of point for damage output and resistence. They were also fine with their first version too, but a bit too easy to kill. I reduced the damage output and increased the resistence of the unit. The cost appears to be reasonnable with the changes now. If I reduce the range, reduce the cost and keep the damage output stable, they can't keep their role as fire supports. Tempestus Scions squads will do a better job thanks to special weapon and even cheaper price. Considering that there is an order to transform Hot-hot Weapons into snipers, I already on the fence about this transformation.

Don't Scions have a Sniper Order?

Seems to me the idea was their flexibility came from their "tactics", rather than a wide range of FOC choices.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Don't Scions have a Sniper Order?

Seems to me the idea was their flexibility came from their "tactics", rather than a wide range of FOC choices.

They still do in this version. I think I will redesign the Insidias Scions into a "lighter and Sneakier" version of a Devastator squad because of this. The previous Hot-Shot Heavy Rifle really gave them some flexibility that the Sniper can't afford them.

They are now set-back at BS: 4, recovered their Their Hot-Shot Heavy Rifle which are now range: 30, S: 6, AP: 3, Heavy 2, but have the same price than before.

Why don't you do like the D-99 decimater squad, turn the sergeant into a spotter.
Remove his hot-shot longlas and give him magnoculars.
''Immediately before the unit makes a shooting attack, the spotter may designate any enemy unit within 60'' for his squad, if the squad elects to fire at this unit (although they do not have to do so) their hot-shot longlas's gain infinite range and the acute senses special rule''
Or similar.
Or perhaps, more similar to D-99, have squads of 1 spotter and 1-4 snipers.
IMO this would make them feel much more like that lone-wolf unit giving precise fire support.
They offer support in a different way to heavy/special weapons. Special/heavy weapons may away at the body, but these snipers go straight for the throat. You're underestimating how effective that (pretty good with a hot-shot) chance at sniping out enemy special or heavy weapons, or even sergeants.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

epronovost wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Don't Scions have a Sniper Order?

Seems to me the idea was their flexibility came from their "tactics", rather than a wide range of FOC choices.

They still do in this version. I think I will redesign the Insidias Scions into a "lighter and Sneakier" version of a Devastator squad because of this. The previous Hot-Shot Heavy Rifle really gave them some flexibility that the Sniper can't afford them.

They are now set-back at BS: 4, recovered their Their Hot-Shot Heavy Rifle which are now range: 30, S: 6, AP: 3, Heavy 2, but have the same price than before.

You so don't need a heavy rifle. That's absurd and they do significantly more damage than they did at BS5 heavy 1.
I also don't see how they're weak, stick them in some shrubs and they're got the same save as a marine, in a building and now they're a fething terminator.
And ignores cover is a lot rarer than AP3 or even AP2, to say nothing of your remaining 4+.

Your fluff describes these as lone-wolf snipers. That's just D-99 decimators in a nutshell.
You have no fluff (or even gameplay) footing to have these guys packing more firepower than Devastators (yes more, do you know how much I would kill to give devastators those things? The only thing more OP is grav. But grav is grav).

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Why don't you do like the D-99 decimater squad, turn the sergeant into a spotter.
Remove his hot-shot longlas and give him magnoculars.
''Immediately before the unit makes a shooting attack, the spotter may designate any enemy unit within 60'' for his squad, if the squad elects to fire at this unit (although they do not have to do so) their hot-shot longlas's gain infinite range and the acute senses special rule''
Or similar.
Or perhaps, more similar to D-99, have squads of 1 spotter and 1-4 snipers.
IMO this would make them feel much more like that lone-wolf unit giving precise fire support.
They offer support in a different way to heavy/special weapons. Special/heavy weapons may away at the body, but these snipers go straight for the throat. You're underestimating how effective that (pretty good with a hot-shot) chance at sniping out enemy special or heavy weapons, or even sergeants.

It could also work, but would require another rule than Acute Sense since it now only helps if you are outflanking. Maybe something like +1 in BS. Lets put it to the test.

Infinite Range, Night Vision, and -1 to Cover Saves, perhaps?

epronovost wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Why don't you do like the D-99 decimater squad, turn the sergeant into a spotter.
Remove his hot-shot longlas and give him magnoculars.
''Immediately before the unit makes a shooting attack, the spotter may designate any enemy unit within 60'' for his squad, if the squad elects to fire at this unit (although they do not have to do so) their hot-shot longlas's gain infinite range and the acute senses special rule''
Or similar.
Or perhaps, more similar to D-99, have squads of 1 spotter and 1-4 snipers.
IMO this would make them feel much more like that lone-wolf unit giving precise fire support.
They offer support in a different way to heavy/special weapons. Special/heavy weapons may away at the body, but these snipers go straight for the throat. You're underestimating how effective that (pretty good with a hot-shot) chance at sniping out enemy special or heavy weapons, or even sergeants.

It could also work, but would require another rule than Acute Sense since it now only helps if you are outflanking. Maybe something like +1 in BS. Lets put it to the test.

Maybe I'm thinking of night vision then.
+1 BS is too much, you're giving a signum that affects the entire squad, and it's magnoculars not a complex targeting dohickey.
Maybe -1 cover, but even then I think that's seriously pushing it. Doubling range isn't exactly something to sniff at...

epronovost wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Why don't you do like the D-99 decimater squad, turn the sergeant into a spotter.
Remove his hot-shot longlas and give him magnoculars.
''Immediately before the unit makes a shooting attack, the spotter may designate any enemy unit within 60'' for his squad, if the squad elects to fire at this unit (although they do not have to do so) their hot-shot longlas's gain infinite range and the acute senses special rule''
Or similar.
Or perhaps, more similar to D-99, have squads of 1 spotter and 1-4 snipers.
IMO this would make them feel much more like that lone-wolf unit giving precise fire support.
They offer support in a different way to heavy/special weapons. Special/heavy weapons may away at the body, but these snipers go straight for the throat. You're underestimating how effective that (pretty good with a hot-shot) chance at sniping out enemy special or heavy weapons, or even sergeants.

It could also work, but would require another rule than Acute Sense since it now only helps if you are outflanking. Maybe something like +1 in BS. Lets put it to the test.

This sounds interesting. Being able to remove special weapons basically at-will makes them a very useful tool for, say, a tank-heavy army, because you can restrict access to plasma/melta/grav in infantry squads.