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snottlebocket wrote:

 orchewer wrote:
To confirm, did Nurglings drop in price?

I'm thinking that they could compete with Cultists now for troop tax units if you're looking to build up to a Battalion or Brigade detachment. Plus the standard Nurgling models seem to fit a Death Guard army more than the standard GW cultist models.

The demons don't have the death guard keyword, only the nurgle keyword. Using them as tax would lose you the death guard benefits.

5 blight lord terminators with plasma combi's + a chaos lord termi with plasma combi (for rerolling those 1's when overcharging)... too expensive or an efficient use of deep striking?

A lot people debate about it - I for example don't like this combi plasma idea - 12 shoots each 1/36 to blow yourself up - sounds to me like you are killing more than 1/3 of blightlord in each salvo. And this setup is stupidly expensive aswell. ~~60 pts per body + lord in terminator armor it's around 430-440 !

Better take combi bolter/blight launcher blightlords/cc weapons and act as distraction at 45 points per model without lord - you just saved around 180 points(more than new tank) - they still can deal good damage - and your opponent has to deal with them. Now how he can do that ? It has been proved by math that plasma is not a way go against them because of trio of T5/Cataphractii/Disgustingly Resilient. Basically they are there at reasonable price tag when your Heavy Blight Launcher Drones/ PBC hammer them from afar. And at same time supported by advancing blight launcher marines.
This way you can put heavy pressure on your opponent from turn 1 - and they don't really have any good targets to shoot at. All equally solid and tenacious.
And on top of that Morty is closing in . .. so even most dedicated gunline may have serious trouble finding soft and viable target - especially that terminators are at his door, Morty with miasma on him is advancing too. And there are no wraps that save him from Plague Mortars/ Heavy Blight launchers and Blightlords who can rapid fire at 18". He eats damage this way or another and there is no easy solution how to stop it as platforms for those weapons are most resillient in 40k.

Remember guys - points you invest in combi plasma could be spent on another long range heavy blight launcher or PBC.

And Blightlords are not pushovers in CC either.

BUT if you heavily overinvest those guys - your opponent now has clear target for all his guns. Don't make his decision too easy.
You drop on resilient but still 2 wound models too many points ? Expect focused fire. And you want to divert this fire only.

Edit : Alternative approach : Take ... 10 of them. Don't take Morty - because you want miasma on those terminators now.
Now they are close to invicible to plasma fire (unless shooting dudes want to kill themselves) .

Now with miasma T5/FNP/4+ invu ... they can wreck anything around with thier own plasma (though still pretty huge risk) - almost impossible to tarpit for long 10 terminators who are not pushovers at all.

So Miasma + Veterans of Long War on them every turn. So plasma will wound basically anything except t8 at 2+ , hit on 3+ , rerolling 1's.
Now sure such unit without even lord/sorcerer is ~~580 points, but if you can give them miasma and not to Morty - then it may be damn worth it.
In such case you don't give a gak if they focus on your termies all they got - as this still won't be enough. They are pretty damn durable against mortal wounds aswell.

So my logic tells me that if you want to go plasma / lord then go HARD and bless them with miasma - otherwise not worth it. With unit of 10 your miasma is very useful and so is veterans of long war.

snottlebocket wrote:

 orchewer wrote:
To confirm, did Nurglings drop in price?

I'm thinking that they could compete with Cultists now for troop tax units if you're looking to build up to a Battalion or Brigade detachment. Plus the standard Nurgling models seem to fit a Death Guard army more than the standard GW cultist models.

The demons don't have the death guard keyword, only the nurgle keyword. Using them as tax would lose you the death guard benefits.

Run the demons in there own detachment and your good, not only do they make cheap battalions, adding heralds adds cheap casters..

COLD CASH wrote:

snottlebocket wrote:

 orchewer wrote:
To confirm, did Nurglings drop in price?

I'm thinking that they could compete with Cultists now for troop tax units if you're looking to build up to a Battalion or Brigade detachment. Plus the standard Nurgling models seem to fit a Death Guard army more than the standard GW cultist models.

The demons don't have the death guard keyword, only the nurgle keyword. Using them as tax would lose you the death guard benefits.

Run the demons in there own detachment and your good, not only do they make cheap battalions, adding heralds adds cheap casters..

That is good suggestion, if I'm not mistake you can also summon herald pretty easily , can you ? He would boost strenght of all daemon engines by 1 aswell.

mario88826 wrote:

Milkshaker wrote:
Has anyone made some calculations on when blight launchers are better than plasma guns on plague marines? i'm having trouble finding reasons to field blight launchers :( (and they are soo cool )

And I have trouble finding situation when plasma is better. Pro tip - start calculating MANDATORY prince/lord to babysit anyone who shoots plasma - tons of points.

Blight launcher got average 2 damage at 24" after advancing with need to worry about exploding.

People underestimate cost of such lord/prince and being forced to actually stick with this marine unit.

Also stop thinking it's perfect scenario - your lord can get killed or be forced to do other stuff. Blight launcher is regardless what you do - always powerful - for mere 1 point more.

Last argument is that it can shoot even from turn 1 - you can easily advance and send 2 shoots at 24". Where plasma may get lucky if it can dish 1 shoot - after just moving.

Yet another argument can be - against Ravenguard/Alpha Legion any to hit modifiers plasma hands down wins contest to be worst weapon in 40k. When again Blight Launcher doesn't care.'

And it's pretty neat against high toughness targets aswell thanks to wound rerolls and with archcontaminator (you dont really need this guy - but he helps) you wound T8 targets with 55% chance. Again without risking to die etc.

By taking launcher you just pay for flexibility and it's flexible as hell.

I disagree with this assessment. Here are the reasons plasma is better:

-It is cheaper
-the damage is not random
-your sergeant can't take a blight launcher so if you take plasma/blight launcher squads you will always be wasting part of your DG traits
-plasma is AP 3
-plasma is either T7 or T8 and higher strength usually meaning you wound on 2-3s
-blight launchers require an archcontaminator character to even be decent.

broxus wrote:

mario88826 wrote:

Milkshaker wrote:
Has anyone made some calculations on when blight launchers are better than plasma guns on plague marines? i'm having trouble finding reasons to field blight launchers :( (and they are soo cool )

And I have trouble finding situation when plasma is better. Pro tip - start calculating MANDATORY prince/lord to babysit anyone who shoots plasma - tons of points.

Blight launcher got average 2 damage at 24" after advancing with need to worry about exploding.

People underestimate cost of such lord/prince and being forced to actually stick with this marine unit.

Also stop thinking it's perfect scenario - your lord can get killed or be forced to do other stuff. Blight launcher is regardless what you do - always powerful - for mere 1 point more.

Last argument is that it can shoot even from turn 1 - you can easily advance and send 2 shoots at 24". Where plasma may get lucky if it can dish 1 shoot - after just moving.

Yet another argument can be - against Ravenguard/Alpha Legion any to hit modifiers plasma hands down wins contest to be worst weapon in 40k. When again Blight Launcher doesn't care.'

And it's pretty neat against high toughness targets aswell thanks to wound rerolls and with archcontaminator (you dont really need this guy - but he helps) you wound T8 targets with 55% chance. Again without risking to die etc.

By taking launcher you just pay for flexibility and it's flexible as hell.

I disagree with this assessment. Here are the reasons plasma is better:

-It is cheaper
-the damage is not random
-your sergeant can't take a blight launcher so if you take plasma/blight launcher squads you will always be wasting part of your DG traits
-plasma is AP 3
-plasma is either T7 or T8 and higher strength usually meaning you wound on 2-3s
-blight launchers require an archcontaminator character to even be decent.

Not this again ... Don't be Luke V2 - i never said plasma is not better in some scenarios. I just said blight launcher is better overall. That's all.

Cheaper 13pts vs 14pts on 60 point Blightlord sure is difference that should decide which is better. But okay
- Archcontaminator - not true at all, it's still decent vs anything , mostly against infantry - yes. Now ... i don't need archcontaminator, but you tell me when your lord - dies or gets out of range to give you rerolling 1's. You see ? I don't need arch-contaminator - but you may aswell fold game if you field tons of plasma without rerolls.
- Yeah sergeant can't take blight launcher - shame but so what ? You still dont want to shoot your plasma before 18" so you advance anyway to shoot 2 times instead of once ? And 2 blight launchers can keep shooting more than squad of 3 plasmas 18" to 24". On top of that once you fast advance into 18" - faster than squad of just plasma who start shooting at 24" - you just keep moving. After that both squads behave similar way.
- about higher STR and AP - i'm kinda disappointed that after so long discussion someone still believes I don't know about strenghts of Plasma weapons. I do . But sadly they are subject to overheating and mandatory lord nearby. When blight launcher is completly good on its own.

In fact I will go further and claim that Blight Launchers are less expensive than plasma - you don't need some fella around to not kill yourself on 1's or 2's if you suffer any to hit modifier - you can use those over 100 points somewhere else. And still punch hard at better ranges than plasma. That alone is enough to win this comparison. But there is more. In fact Archcontaminator is just yet another reason why you take blight launcher - but you are completely fine without him.

To further reinforce Blight launcher position - let's say that main targets for plasma and blight launcher are elite infantry of T4/T5 - against such targets your squad with plasma or blight launchers - both could benefit from Veteran of Long War. (especially T5's)
But fact is clear that Blight Launcher beats Plasma in its own turf - wounds on 2+ and reroll 1's . Raising to wound chance from ~~84% to ~~97%. Now tell me you don't want to throw 1CP on this glorious stratagem regardless how you fit your blightlords for example.

Also Blight launchers don't suddenly become dead points once your precious lord gets killed by something.

Listen I like to theorycraft. But real application on table and theory are 2 different things.

Right now you argue to me - that you will squeeze all your plasma/shooty squads around your 6" bubble of lord. Good luck controlling any objective bro. You cannot afford to make such massive mistakes if you even hope to win any single game !
You sure you play DG not Imperial Guards/ Guilliman Razorbacks ? Because sounds like this to me .

Plasma doesn't hold a candle to Blight Launcher doesn't matter how you approach that.

Plasma is not an awful strategy but if you're going to go all out with that, just use normal CSM terminators. They're cheaper and get to fire twice. Because slaanesh.

The only benefits are that nurgle terminators get DR and get to double tap at 18". Those are real benefits, but not worth sacrificing double firing.

I'm still a fan of plasma myself on the plague marine squads. I don't overcharge against most targets, so the overheating isn't often an issue. Usually I want my troops taking out infantry units that are frequently camped out in cover (devastators, for example), so the extra ap is worth more than the multiple damage. When my heavy weapons do fail to kill some big, scary target, that's when I have a troops squad trying to help finish off the last few wounds and there again I like having the higher strength and better ap as well as the additional shots from running 3 guns in a squad instead of 2.

I think the biggest thing is not wanting to mix and match to me. I'd run the blightlaunchers so I could advance and shoot if I didn't have to run 1 less in the unit. Running 2 blightlaunchers and 1 plasma I'm afraid I would still just end up never advancing because I don't want to waste the plasma gun on the champ. I wish the champ could take the blight launcher as well.

'

 lessthanjeff wrote:
I'm still a fan of plasma myself on the plague marine squads. I don't overcharge against most targets, so the overheating isn't often an issue. Usually I want my troops taking out infantry units that are frequently camped out in cover (devastators, for example), so the extra ap is worth more than the multiple damage. When my heavy weapons do fail to kill some big, scary target, that's when I have a troops squad trying to help finish off the last few wounds and there again I like having the higher strength and better ap as well as the additional shots from running 3 guns in a squad instead of 2.

I think the biggest thing is not wanting to mix and match to me. I'd run the blightlaunchers so I could advance and shoot if I didn't have to run 1 less in the unit. Running 2 blightlaunchers and 1 plasma I'm afraid I would still just end up never advancing because I don't want to waste the plasma gun on the champ. I wish the champ could take the blight launcher as well.

But those weapons can really work well together. I can't see how you want to sit at 24" shooting 1 plasma projectile instead of getting in 18" as fast as possible.
You need to reset this approach that you need to advance or need to move. In fact you don't need to do anything once you get into 18". And both weapons are fine in this range. With Blight launcher being vastly better in 29"-18" range . Or even possibly from 35" with Noxious Blightbringer you can advance pretty damn fast.

Blight Launcher really shines because of that - you can target stuff you want to kill - not whatever is in rapid fire range. Unless you happy with killing wrap of conscripts with plasma. No you wan't to take down important targets that are not always going into your plasma range.
Really leave forum, theories and go play some games - you will be amazed how you can outplay plasma with your blight launcher. Zip 11" with some good advance roll throw 24" shoot - noone is safe from blight launchers.

This entire debate is wearing me off :

Let's compare Blight Launcher lover like me and random (noone in particular) plasma lover.

1. Plasma lover :

- Oh situation is perfect , my lord/prince is sitting like a duck nearby - so I don't kill my own units with OH. But if there is any - to hit ? Ah lets cross fingers there is noone. Fact that I still have chance to kill myself when shooting - but I pretend it's not true.

1. Blight Launcher Lover :

- Well I paid for my launchers , I welcome any buffs , but honestly ? I hit well, wound well - I will just shoot. And hey I don't need company of heroes to babysit me - fair enough.

2. Plasma Lover :

- All as Planned - I think I'm Tzeentch himself - everything I want to shoot just came into my 18" range - and doesn't have -1 to hit. I'm such mastermind. (really ...)

2. Blight Launcher Lover :

- Oh screw it ... nothing in range even at 24" - that must be some Tzeentch doing. But I don't give a gak - let's advance bois - we can still still shoot at full power afterwards.

3. Plasma Lover :

- What do you mean , you killed my Lord? ! How I'm supposed to deal any damage to get my points back invested in plasma ?
- Stand still mr Daemon Prince - noone let you leave those precious Marines - Like I care that you want to charge that vulnerable unit of inceptors that is nearby. LIKE I CARE - you are there to babysit - After all I just paid ~~150-160 points to have you reroll my 1's. And so what you think you are decent in CC ? Really S7 AP-2 7 attacks with D2 - you think that is reason to leave 3 dudes with plasma to explode ? Hah.

3. Blight Launcher lover :

- Well it was good to have you mr Archcontaminator and mr Daemon Prince - but we fully understand you have job to do. So feel free to actually pay for points invested in you. As we are good on our own.

mario88826 wrote:
'

 lessthanjeff wrote:
I'm still a fan of plasma myself on the plague marine squads. I don't overcharge against most targets, so the overheating isn't often an issue. Usually I want my troops taking out infantry units that are frequently camped out in cover (devastators, for example), so the extra ap is worth more than the multiple damage. When my heavy weapons do fail to kill some big, scary target, that's when I have a troops squad trying to help finish off the last few wounds and there again I like having the higher strength and better ap as well as the additional shots from running 3 guns in a squad instead of 2.

I think the biggest thing is not wanting to mix and match to me. I'd run the blightlaunchers so I could advance and shoot if I didn't have to run 1 less in the unit. Running 2 blightlaunchers and 1 plasma I'm afraid I would still just end up never advancing because I don't want to waste the plasma gun on the champ. I wish the champ could take the blight launcher as well.

But those weapons can really work well together. I can't see how you want to sit at 24" shooting 1 plasma projectile instead of getting in 18" as fast as possible.
You need to reset this approach that you need to advance or need to move. In fact you don't need to do anything once you get into 18". And both weapons are fine in this range. With Blight launcher being vastly better in 29"-18" range . Or even possibly from 35" with Noxious Blightbringer you can advance pretty damn fast.

Blight Launcher really shines because of that - you can target stuff you want to kill - not whatever is in rapid fire range. Unless you happy with killing wrap of conscripts with plasma. No you wan't to take down important targets that are not always going into your plasma range.
Really leave forum, theories and go play some games - you will be amazed how you can outplay plasma with your blight launcher. Zip 11" with some good advance roll throw 24" shoot - noone is safe from blight launchers.

Where are you getting me wanting to sit and shoot from 24" at? I'm referring to what the squad can do to a unit of devastators (or any standard meq) in cover. 2 plasma guns shooting at a meq in cover is 1.19 wounds (without overcharging), 2 blightlaunchers is 1.04 wounds. The plasma gun does more damage to most infantry targets as long as you're within 18" while the blightlauncher should exceed it for the greater distances. You don't need to overcharge it to get better numbers and I generally find the 23" threat range of plasma guns on plague marines is sufficient to hit the targets I want.

I was saying I don't want to mix and match plasma and blightlaunchers in a unit because then I still wouldn't want to advance and shoot the blightlaunchers (which is one of the advantages it has) because then I'd be wasting the other plasma gun I paid for. I'd rather just pay for 3 plasma guns in the unit and pick a target that doesn't require advancing because it's better damage output.

 lessthanjeff wrote:

mario88826 wrote:
'

 lessthanjeff wrote:
I'm still a fan of plasma myself on the plague marine squads. I don't overcharge against most targets, so the overheating isn't often an issue. Usually I want my troops taking out infantry units that are frequently camped out in cover (devastators, for example), so the extra ap is worth more than the multiple damage. When my heavy weapons do fail to kill some big, scary target, that's when I have a troops squad trying to help finish off the last few wounds and there again I like having the higher strength and better ap as well as the additional shots from running 3 guns in a squad instead of 2.

I think the biggest thing is not wanting to mix and match to me. I'd run the blightlaunchers so I could advance and shoot if I didn't have to run 1 less in the unit. Running 2 blightlaunchers and 1 plasma I'm afraid I would still just end up never advancing because I don't want to waste the plasma gun on the champ. I wish the champ could take the blight launcher as well.

But those weapons can really work well together. I can't see how you want to sit at 24" shooting 1 plasma projectile instead of getting in 18" as fast as possible.
You need to reset this approach that you need to advance or need to move. In fact you don't need to do anything once you get into 18". And both weapons are fine in this range. With Blight launcher being vastly better in 29"-18" range . Or even possibly from 35" with Noxious Blightbringer you can advance pretty damn fast.

Blight Launcher really shines because of that - you can target stuff you want to kill - not whatever is in rapid fire range. Unless you happy with killing wrap of conscripts with plasma. No you wan't to take down important targets that are not always going into your plasma range.
Really leave forum, theories and go play some games - you will be amazed how you can outplay plasma with your blight launcher. Zip 11" with some good advance roll throw 24" shoot - noone is safe from blight launchers.

Where are you getting me wanting to sit and shoot from 24" at? I'm referring to what the squad can do to a unit of devastators (or any standard meq) in cover. 2 plasma guns shooting at a meq in cover is 1.19 wounds (without overcharging), 2 blightlaunchers is 1.04 wounds. The plasma gun does more damage to most infantry targets as long as you're within 18" while the blightlauncher should exceed it for the greater distances. You don't need to overcharge it to get better numbers and I generally find the 23" threat range of plasma guns on plague marines is sufficient to hit the targets I want.

I was saying I don't want to mix and match plasma and blightlaunchers in a unit because then I still wouldn't want to advance and shoot the blightlaunchers (which is one of the advantages it has) because then I'd be wasting the other plasma gun I paid for. I'd rather just pay for 3 plasma guns in the unit and pick a target that doesn't require advancing because it's better damage output.

This is exactly what your opponent wants you to do - shoot whatever he wants to be shoot down. Not what you want to shoot. And GL hiding from those launchers.
Honestly without overcharge plasma is not impressive at all and stand no chance to take down terminator / 2 wound elite infantry at all.

Idk but I just feel like being able to shoot what I want is really powerful, not whatever gets close. It may be just me, but I prefer reliable and flexible units.

You don't know what you gonna face in tournament, who you gonna play and what to expect often - so universal badass weapons are always first pick.

It's true that -1 to hit is rather prevalent in the game. Thankfully, prescience is a thing. So the -1 to hit is cancelled out by the +1 to hit, meaning there's no additional risk for overheating.

Having a deep striking lord nearby mitigates any mobility issues. Yes it's expensive, but it's guaranteed that you can go anywhere with only a 1/36 chance of overheat, even if you're at -1 to hit.

Also I'm not sure what all this talk of range is. Terminators have deep strike. That means they can go wherever you need them to. It's true that your opponent can sometimes screen them out of double tap range, but you can also wait to deep strike in. And warptime helps a lot with making sure you get past a screen into double tap range. If you're deep striking into a place where you don't have anything in a 29" threat range (you know, after moving on the second turn), then you're deep striking very wrong.

How are people killing your character? You can literally put him in the middle of your terminator squad. If he's not the last model to die, you're doing something very wrong.

Having a daemon prince around for plasma re-rolls is indeed an awful idea. Just use a generic lord.

To be clear, in no way am I saying that blightlord terminators are bad. Their launchers are good. Very good, even. Not being the best option doesn't mean they're bad.

And for what's it's worth, I do think that plasma terminators are a little overpriced for what they bring too. But they're still pretty good.

TDLR if you want a squad of 5-10 terminators that can stand on their own pretty well, use blightlords.

If you want to go all in and create a mini deathstar, grab 10 MoS terminators and support them. They'll kill everything in range, but they'll also eat up a ton of your army points.

I think you might be misunderstanding something important here, the plasma guns outdamage the blightlaunchers without overcharging against most targets.

Against 2 wound targets like terminators, 2 plasma guns can overcharge and kill 1.48 terminators while 2 blight launchers only average killing a terminator 59% of the time (0.89 wounds inflicted but 1/3 of the damage results don't kill the terminator) making the plasma guns about 3 times as lethal than the blightlauncher without even taking into account having 3 of them vs only 2 blightlaunchers. Yes it is more risky, but if you're in a situation where you really need to kill those terminators inflicting 3 times as many casualties may be worth it with or without a nearby rerolling character.

To me, the plasma gun advantage is about having the output choice against different targets since 23" is enough range for me to not feel like I have to go after less than ideal targets. Getting to take 3 of the weapon instead of 2 when they do more damage even on a 1 to 1 comparison makes it an easier choice for me.

*coughCSMTerminatorscantake10plasmacough*

 luke1705 wrote:

Bjt0012 wrote:
Any thoughts on the FW Greater Blight Drone?

Quick aside, my first question is how do they (and other fw models for that matter) fit into detachments? Do I need to take a separate detachment or do they fit into my Death Guard ones. I've tried to figure it out and still don't know. Probably missing something obvious somewhere...

If they do in fact fit in, they seem like an interesting option to me. You get +1 bs, 2 extra wounds, carrion haunter, extra weapon and regeneration but lose out on plague weapons and cost a little more. Guessing they might not benefit from other auras as well and cost a little more than the new drones. Just wondering if anyone had given them a go yet.

The FAQ answers that question:

"You can only choose for a unit to be from the Death Guard Legion if it has the Nurgle keyword, or if it has the <Mark of Chaos> keyword and you choose to replace that with Nurgle. You cannot choose for a Hellforged Rapier Battery, a Chaos Hellwright or
a Chaos Hellwright on Dark Abeyant to be from the Death Guard."

So the:

Blight Drone
Decimator
Plague Hulk of Nurgle
Contemptor Dread
Land Raider Proteus
Land Raider Achilles
Scorpius
Sicaran
Predator
Spartan
Deredeo
Leviathan
Dreadclaw
Kharybdis

Etc can all be in a death guard detachment.

Not really a whole lot of benefit to that other than not needing to run a CSM Detachment, having the ability to use DG strategems, and (possibly) having deredeos and leviathans use the DG move and fire heavy weapons without penalty chapter tactic. That should be FAQ'd honestly.

Thank you! Totally forgot about the FAQ. Looked everywhere but there.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
I think you might be misunderstanding something important here, the plasma guns outdamage the blightlaunchers without overcharging against most targets.

Against 2 wound targets like terminators, 2 plasma guns can overcharge and kill 1.48 terminators while 2 blight launchers only average killing a terminator 59% of the time (0.89 wounds inflicted but 1/3 of the damage results don't kill the terminator) making the plasma guns about 3 times as lethal than the blightlauncher without even taking into account having 3 of them vs only 2 blightlaunchers. Yes it is more risky, but if you're in a situation where you really need to kill those terminators inflicting 3 times as many casualties may be worth it with or without a nearby rerolling character.

To me, the plasma gun advantage is about having the output choice against different targets since 23" is enough range for me to not feel like I have to go after less than ideal targets. Getting to take 3 of the weapon instead of 2 when they do more damage even on a 1 to 1 comparison makes it an easier choice for me.

btw I hope this Luke dude ain't talking to me as I ignored him long time ago ... would be pita for him to waste time posts addressed to me .

Yeah I see what you said there but still there many problems with this math - while it's indeed correct dear sir - we got another layers of problems. Were they in your 18" range in first place ? Didn't you kill yourself when doing so ? Did they have some sort to hit modifiers like alpha legion/miasma etc ?

Because I can see situations where plasma may not be able to shoot termies at all.
Let me show you such situation - a unit of terminators dropped your poor Burst Crawler and they are 30" away from your Marine squad ? Why so far away ? They are Objective secured and need to take well those damn objectives . But suddenly you realise your plasma cannot support your tank back there.

Blight Launcher squad easily advances (even if they roll 1 !) and shoot said terminators with good chance to do some damage there.

Yet another situation where output of blight launcher again is just better - start of game. Plasmas try to get in range - and Blight Launchers can start right of the bat advance and rain down some smelly grenades there.

You can't ignore range issues and ability to shoot vs NOT shoot at all.

DG army is slow as hell - let's get our facts straight - be able to actually support your army with such gakky mobility SHOULD NOT be underestimated at all. Especially that we need it pretty badly.

3 times damage mutliplied by 0 is 0 damage .

Also who said i cannot have this plasma along with my 2 launchers as addition. So its not 2 vs 3 weapons aswell.

Yeah, longer range is the advantage I like for the blight launchers.

Funnily enough, if we're comparing 3 plasma guns to 2 blight launchers against meq, then plasma outdamages significantly from the 1-23" range, they are actually the same from 23-29 inches, and then blight launchers will win out from the 29-35 range. That gives the plasma gun loadout a bigger advantage across more range bands, so to me that's what more important and it's where my preference comes from. It seems logical to me that having more damage for 23" is better than having more damage for 6" of range but some armies may have different needs and need more ways to hit those distant targets. I plan on using the faster and longer range drones/artillery for those targets.

Don't forget also that the plasma guns are significantly better against vehicles (like razorbacks) and other tough targets too though because of the higher strength and ap. Even without overcharging, 3 plasma guns in the 1-23 range averages 1.67 wounds while the blight launchers average 1.38. Obviously, overcharging ups the damage significantly to 4.44 wounds at the greater cost if you really need something dead.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
Yeah, longer range is the advantage I like for the blight launchers.

Funnily enough, if we're comparing 3 plasma guns to 2 blight launchers against meq, then plasma outdamages significantly from the 1-23" range, they are actually the same from 23-29 inches, and then blight launchers will win out from the 29-35 range. That gives the plasma gun loadout a bigger advantage across more range bands, so to me that's what more important and it's where my preference comes from. It seems logical to me that having more damage for 23" is better than having more damage for 6" of range but some armies may have different needs and need more ways to hit those distant targets. I plan on using the faster and longer range drones/artillery for those targets.

Don't forget also that the plasma guns are significantly better against vehicles (like razorbacks) and other tough targets too though because of the higher strength and ap. Even without overcharging, 3 plasma guns in the 1-23 range averages 1.67 wounds while the blight launchers average 1.38. Obviously, overcharging ups the damage significantly to 4.44 wounds at the greater cost if you really need something dead.

Haha I accept your all arguments - and they are all valid.

But in my army I cannot afford lord to accompany Marines - he goes where is needed - i mean not lord but Prince - to kick some ass . And he is pretty good at it.

Maybe entire differences between our perception of problem comes to this point.

You prefer heavy firepower even if you have to make sacrifices to get it - not saying it's bad approach.
And I prefer reliable and flexible forces . That can zip around claim what i need to be claimed and still punch people around - even when advancing.
I don't trust plasma - not because it explodes , but because it explodes violently at times when any to hit modifier appears.

Different tactics i assume. Both can work.

So lets just keep it that way.

Maybe I also don't value anti tank aspect of plasma because I plan to have dedicated units to deal with this issue - at least 2 PBCs with Enthropy cannons and mortars should do the job pretty well along with other heavy hitting units in CC.

Generally to understand what is in my mind (hahaha) - i will try to picture my forces - Fast , durable , flexible. Not necessarily super hard punching . Who knows - in world of alpha strike meta - i may be making mistake. But i will bank on suriving the storm.

In fact if DG cannot survive storm then who can ?

As fun fact - recent MWG video features Luka playing Plasma Blightlords with Plasma Lord dropping - not only they did NOTHING at all and it was like ~~450 points there. But also Lord killed himself on first shoot - even though he rerolled, but into another 1 lol.
While chance for this may not seem to be high. But go on and tell me it doesn't happen. Each shoot is 3% to kill yourself if you OH EVEN with reroll. And that is before modifiers.
After that violent explosion nearby Blightlords lost confidence in thier shooting and relied on not overheated shoots and failed to kill razorback even with charge after.
Yeah 450 points to ... kill yourself and razorback lived.

If such displays how plasma can backfire are not enough to love blight launchers - then i dont know what can .

The only plasma i like hands down is prescience infused plasma shooting.

What are people thinking for effective anti tank?

I've been looking at 2 or 3 Plague Burst Crawlers with Mortar and Entropy Canon's.
Supported by a dirt cheap Lord with Arch Contaminator and Fulgaris' Helm.

This allows refills of 1s to hit and rerolls to wounds with the main mortars.

I welcome any suggestions though.

I'll have to catch that game on MWG later as I haven't seen it yet. I think many people make the mistake of overcharging too often when it's rarely needed and it sounds like that's what this player did too.

Most loadouts don't have a strictly better or worse in all possible setups of the game, so I generally try to avoid inserting too much opinion into comparisons. I just wanted people to see the numbers in case they weren't as familiar with the math behind the comparisons so they could make the better choice based on what they need more of in their army. Remember, it's not that it's better damage at greater risk for plasma vs blightlauncher, even without overcharging the plasma guns are generally better against most targets. It's a question of range needs and which characters are included to support what.

I'm actually partial to trying a unit all throwing their grenades comboed with veterans of the long war for 5+ mortal wounds too. A 10 man unit averages 7.8 mortal wounds on top of the 2 damage str 4 attacks of the grenades themselves. That means against a primaris squad, for example, you'll have 7.8 mortal wounds and an additional 3.9 dead from grenade damage.

 dan2026 wrote:
What are people thinking for effective anti tank?

I've been looking at 2 or 3 Plague Burst Crawlers with Mortar and Entropy Canon's.
Supported by a dirt cheap Lord with Arch Contaminator and Fulgaris' Helm.

This allows refills of 1s to hit and rerolls to wounds with the main mortars.

I welcome any suggestions though.

Seems everyone at least agrees there - PBCs are there to act as high S multi damage weapons in our arsenal. They are dirty cheap / very resiliient and shooty enough.
Yeah I think you got numbers right 2-3 should do.

But about Archcontaminator - if you do this then neither Morty nor Typhus can use his warlord trait. That means if you include Mortarion he no longer provides this aura. But then again you may not field morty at all.

Overall mortar even against T8 targets has better chance to wound than Lascannon without buffs - if there is arch contaminator dude. Against T7 it's always better or equal in terms of wounding - equal only if lascannon also have someone to reroll all wounds not just 1's.

I'm super excited for this tank. We can basically hammer anything with indirect fire.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lessthanjeff wrote:
I'll have to catch that game on MWG later as I haven't seen it yet. I think many people make the mistake of overcharging too often when it's rarely needed and it sounds like that's what this player did too.

Most loadouts don't have a strictly better or worse in all possible setups of the game, so I generally try to avoid inserting too much opinion into comparisons. I just wanted people to see the numbers in case they weren't as familiar with the math behind the comparisons so they could make the better choice based on what they need more of in their army. Remember, it's not that it's better damage at greater risk for plasma vs blightlauncher, even without overcharging the plasma guns are generally better against most targets. It's a question of range needs and which characters are included to support what.

I'm actually partial to trying a unit all throwing their grenades comboed with veterans of the long war for 5+ mortal wounds too. A 10 man unit averages 7.8 mortal wounds on top of the 2 damage str 4 attacks of the grenades themselves. That means against a primaris squad, for example, you'll have 7.8 mortal wounds and an additional 3.9 dead from grenade damage.

Grenade tactic - while I like it - has some problems. first of all you need squad of marines - preferably CC - already not something i will field. 2nd you need biologus dude and ride for them all. Well after that - yeah they can wreck not only primaris but anything with happy grenades .
Why CC Marines ? Well if you field plasma or blight launcher marines doesn't matter but if they are shooty you don't want them to get THAT close. CC marines on the other hand can throw those grenades and deal tons of damage - and after that charge to hammer anything that could survive shooting phase in first place.

What I start to love about DG is that we got all myriads of tactics that seem to be actually working at least in theory. And a lot of tools to accomplish them .

What you guys think about Deathshroud - I try to get them into army somehow. But thier non existent shooting makes them one trick pony that likes to fail that one trick aka charge . Doesn't sound to me like a deal. Land Raider ... VERY expensive and I want PBCs for those points.
The only doable solution is warp time from auxillary/another chaos detachment. And sounds lame to me as i want pure DG army ;/.

mario88826 wrote:


btw I hope this Luke dude ain't talking to me as I ignored him long time ago ... would be pita for him to waste time posts addressed to me

Flattered that you're still thinking about me. Glad that we can have a civil discourse even through your ignore settings.

Tbh it doesn't matter to me if you read what I write or not. Clearly you decided a long time ago not to listen. I'm here for the tactics - both to learn and to help others. You do you boo boo


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dan2026 wrote:
What are people thinking for effective anti tank?

I've been looking at 2 or 3 Plague Burst Crawlers with Mortar and Entropy Canon's.
Supported by a dirt cheap Lord with Arch Contaminator and Fulgaris' Helm.

This allows refills of 1s to hit and rerolls to wounds with the main mortars.

I welcome any suggestions though.

That pretty much sounds like what I was thinking. Those plague burst crawlers are amazing. And the model...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lessthanjeff wrote:
Yeah, longer range is the advantage I like for the blight launchers.

Funnily enough, if we're comparing 3 plasma guns to 2 blight launchers against meq, then plasma outdamages significantly from the 1-23" range, they are actually the same from 23-29 inches, and then blight launchers will win out from the 29-35 range. That gives the plasma gun loadout a bigger advantage across more range bands, so to me that's what more important and it's where my preference comes from. It seems logical to me that having more damage for 23" is better than having more damage for 6" of range but some armies may have different needs and need more ways to hit those distant targets. I plan on using the faster and longer range drones/artillery for those targets.

Best and most concise summation of why plasma > blight launchers I've read to date. Give this man an exalt

Yeah, I'm thinking 9 man unit in a rhino probably with no upgrades to chase down targets that have good invuls, multiple wounds, or high toughness. If the opponent doesn't have an ideal target, then they canl jet around and hold objectives since they're still a very durable, obsec unit. Even against something like a knight they average around 10 wounds just from the grenades.

I think the deathshroud will be too expensive and slow to justify. I only see them being used when a list absolutely requires mortarian surviving an opening barrage for when you get second turn in the same way that some people would take void shield generators to prevent a harsh alpha strike.

Deathshroud are fluffy and really cool, but not competitive IMO. Way too expensive per wound. Just take other things your opponent HAS to kill and he'll worry about morty less.

In my Tyranid example, my opponent is less likely to shoot at a Swarmlord if a squad of Genestealers is barreling down on them

 lessthanjeff wrote:
Yeah, I'm thinking 9 man unit in a rhino probably with no upgrades to chase down targets that have good invuls, multiple wounds, or high toughness. If the opponent doesn't have an ideal target, then they canl jet around and hold objectives since they're still a very durable, obsec unit. Even against something like a knight they average around 10 wounds just from the grenades.

I think the deathshroud will be too expensive and slow to justify. I only see them being used when a list absolutely requires mortarian surviving an opening barrage for when you get second turn in the same way that some people would take void shield generators to prevent a harsh alpha strike.

Yeah actually nice approach - so you would leave them without much extra eq to not get overboard with points. I wasn't thinking that way. Thanks for idea.

Normally such marines would be waste but with those grenades - it may be correct approach to just get numbers.

But still I would slap 2 flails on this unit - only 10p each and that thing is godlike.

I think Deathshroud probably need three wounds to get them where they need to be.
I think it might happen as well. Plague Drones and Beasts just gained a wound after all.

I sure hope so. GW really screwed up with their current stats. They have 2 wounds and cost more than 4-wound characters. They cost more points per wound than even Morty. IMO increase their points cost to 80 per model but with 3 wounds.

 Virules wrote:
I sure hope so. GW really screwed up with their current stats. They have 2 wounds and cost more than 4-wound characters. They cost more points per wound than even Morty. IMO increase their points cost to 80 per model but with 3 wounds.

exactly i did callculations - i prefer if morty take damage instead of them. Who is bodyguard again ?

Aw shucks, thanks Luke. I've been on these forums a long time and have no idea what the exalts do or mean but I appreciate it all the same.

Mario, the greatest thing about the grenade unit is it's a nice compliment to the other weapons plague marines field that all have pretty solid ap values. I'm personally looking at two units of marines with 3 plasma guns each to target units that don't have strong invuls and one grenade unit to get through the targets that do.

 Virules wrote:
I sure hope so. GW really screwed up with their current stats. They have 2 wounds and cost more than 4-wound characters. They cost more points per wound than even Morty. IMO increase their points cost to 80 per model but with 3 wounds.

If people make enough noise about it. Maybe it might make it into the first faq.

 dan2026 wrote:

 Virules wrote:
I sure hope so. GW really screwed up with their current stats. They have 2 wounds and cost more than 4-wound characters. They cost more points per wound than even Morty. IMO increase their points cost to 80 per model but with 3 wounds.

If people make enough noise about it. Maybe it might make it into the first faq.

+
Or don't but them ... i want models ... but i think they are not worth it , for each deathshroud i have foul blightspawn or biologus and for less tallyman... i think they should be at custodes price values. Custodes have WS2+ , they are faster and got 3 wounds.
And yeah 3+ invu shields ...

Though sadly many people won't resist and just take them anyway - for looks alone. Which i cannot blame them at all hahaha. But i will protest with my wallet- i have crapton of miniatures that still need painting - so i can wait with those.