Death Guard Tactica

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**Eldenfirefly**

Have Mortarion fly up and smash their vehicles to bits.

**nfe**

I'm not (and wont be) using Mortarion. I'd actually forgotten about Hellbrutes (because the model is so horrible I shut them out my mind, I guess) so that might be an option I suppose.

**TremendousZ**

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I feel that part of the issue of playing mechanised death guard is that you essentially decide for the opponent that the Rhinos will be targeted. Firstly, they contain a lot of points in them (be it plague marines or elite characters or both).

Secondly, many deathguard vehicles like hauler, bloat drone, etc all have DR. Having one or more Rhinos in your list alongside other deathguard vehicles makes it easy for the opponent. Because its gonna be far easier to kill a Rhino that doesnt have DR than to kill say a bloat drone, or a Hauler, or a crawler. Not to mention the fact that he isn't just killing 70 plus points of Rhino. He is depriving your plague marines of a fast ride, and if some die from emergency disembark, then its even more points he just killed. Its almost a no brainer. Unless you have an even higher priority target like Mortarion on the board. I think it might work... if you skip most of the rest of the deathguard vehicles. That means you go Mortarion plus all Rhinos. Forget about bloat drones and the rest. Or if you don't have Mortarion, then just full Rhinos with melee plague marines.

It might work actually. Although... are you totally forgoing bubblewrap pox walkers or cultists? Because if you are, some deep strike shooting is really dangerous and without proper bubble wrap, you are going to let the opponent shoot you very efficiently too (scions, deepstrike termis, etc etc). I mean, a scion deep strike squad with full plasma or full meltas is under 100 points? No bubble wrap in favour of Rhinos means that if the opponent gets the jump strike on you, your Rhinos are going to be super vulnerable. Even for CSM, a 10 man terminator plasma squad is 500 points but can pump out 20 plasma shots (and then with cacophony strategem, can do it again). So, potentially 40 plasma shots. That's 80 potential wounds if overcharged, and that would probably kill off all rhinos you have on the board if they are all within plasma double tap range (and without bubble wrap, they will be).

You almost have to go first to stand a better chance, but in practise, Going first is 50:50.

It might be worth exploring though. Because a move advanced Rhino is one of the few things that can keep up with a Mortarion (though not a warp timed Mortarion).

I always fill the rhinos and LR with the poxwalkers to try to counteract this. Then have a NBB help any Plague marines advance up the table.

**Eldenfirefly**

huh ?? @@ So, your pox walkers get to ride in LR and Rhinos while your plague marines foot slog? @@

**nfe**

That's a new one, certainly! I do like the idea of poxwalkers flooding out of landraiders though. Like those guys boobytrapping trucks with zombies in The Walking Dead.

**Eldenfirefly**

but... LR can only take 10 models. They won't exactly be flooding out of the LR. lol Not unless its a forgeworld Spartan or something.

**SilverAlien**

Yeah, poxwalkers don't really justify the cost of a rhino, god forbid a land raider, with their melee ability. Even buffed by typhus a unit of 10 kills like 4 guardsmen a turn. That's going to slow going, clearing through enemy infantry.

Just the 4 flails from two five man PM squads output kill 8 per turn for comparison.

Honestly, running pure DG, I'm pretty sure our core has to be demon engines or vehicles. More specifically a mixture of drones, plagueburst crawlers, helbrutes and predators. Everything else is either ineffective outside very specific roles (poxwalkers/cultists/PM) or way to expensive to be taken in sigifcant numbers (blight lord terminators).

Which isn't that bad all things considered. They fill most of the roles we need.

The thing I keep coming back to is we are way better support than a main army. I usually say support for CSM, but we work even for nurgle demons. Cultists/poxwalkers can provide obj secured as demons can't currently get it. Plagueburst crawlers can add much better long range anti tank than anything demons natively have while still working well with epidemius. Mortarion works better with them and some plague drones taking advantage of his -T aura to mulch chaff. We can even provide some deepstrike with blightlords so they don't have to rely entirely on summoning for that.

Then again, I say support but what I just mentioned does amount to roughly half a 2000 point army. I suppose it's also a bit silly to complain about pure DG not being viable when almost every army works better mixing right now, even pure CSM usually uses two or more legions.

**Wayniac**

So I am trying to decide if I should keep 2 blight-haulers in my list for some extra anti-tank (at the cost of having to wait what, another 3 weeks?) or dropping them and taking a unit of Blightlord Terminators, so I'll have both Deathshroud (with lord of contagion) and Blightlords deep striking in, along with a CC plague marine squad in Rhino w/Putrifier and Blightspawn, two shooty Marine Squads, 18 poxwalkers (as a screen/chaff), and then two Plagueburst Crawlers.

Not gonna lie, that double terminator list sounds really cool.

**Bremon**

I know most people like the idea of new models and tend to be swayed by the more unique models in a range but from what I can tell the most reliable anti-tank is a pair of Predators.

**SilverAlien**

I'd say go with the blight lords myself. While the blight haulers are tougher on paper, blight lords end up being harder to kill in practice. Weapons like lascannons are overkill against blight lords but classic terminator counters like plasma fail due to wounding on a 3+ vs 2+ and DR making a single unsaved shot statistically more likely to deal a single or no wounds than it is to kill the terminator outright. A great distraction, particularly if you toss a flail and/or autocannon on them so the enemy is desperate to kill the entire unit.

**Wayniac**

SilverAlien wrote:
I'd say go with the blight lords myself. While the blight haulers are tougher on paper, blight lords end up being harder to kill in practice. Weapons like lascannons are overkill against blight lords but classic terminator counters like plasma fail due to wounding on a 3+ vs 2+ and DR making a single unsaved shot statistically more likely to deal a single or no wounds than it is to kill the terminator outright. A great distraction, particularly if you toss a flail and/or autocannon on them so the enemy is desperate to kill the entire unit.

Yeah, also just the thought of blightlords and deathshroud with a Lord of Contagion dropping in seems really fun. I can always buy the blight haulers and see how they work later too.

**SilverAlien**

Bremon wrote:
I know most people like the idea of new models and tend to be swayed by the more unique models in a range but from what I can tell the most reliable anti-tank is a pair of Predators.

Predators are, without a doubt, better anti tank for their points than plagueburst crawlers. The main advantage the crawlers have is that they are much harder to kill and cheaper. They also benefit more from synergy, both with DG and nurgle demons.

Generally, a crawler buffed by a chaos lord with arch contaminator runs at about 2/3rds the damage of a las predator buffed by a chaos lord. They cost 156 points vs 190 points. So three crawlers at 468 vs two predators at 380. For less than 100 points (and locking your warlord trait in), you've got DR on all three, an extra 14 wounds between the extra tank and the additional wound each has, invulnerable saves, and an extra point of toughness. Even just looking at the DR and extra wounds, it takes 54 unsaved wounds to kill three blightcrawlers vs 22 for two predators. For what amounts to a 25% increase in cost you are getting an almost 150% increase in durability.

For secondary benefits, the crawlers are more useful than las predators if the enemy doesn't bring much heavy armor, as the weapons are marginally better versus heavy infantry, come equipped with a heavy slugger by default, and can be used to tie up melee units if they really aren't good for anything else. They also benefit from buffs granted by demons, mainly useful for the healing psychic power as we can't run warpsmiths to heal our predators.

Again though, the main thing is: Three blight crawlers put out the same rough damage as two predators, cost 125% of the cost for 250% of the durability. That's a steal.

**Bremon**

That’s a good point, plus the crawler has the rule of cool in it’s favour as well.

**SilverAlien**

Bremon wrote:
That’s a good point, plus the crawler has the rule of cool in it’s favour as well.

Though it also costs around 200$ for a set of three while all of us likely have a couple predators, so that's a practical issue.

In my case I'm going to slap some sponsons on a vindicator and call it a conversion until I can get a full set. They are already painted as DG/nurgle tanks complete with vague green drippings from the cannon.

**gwarsh41**

Emicrania wrote:
gwarsh41 wrote:
Wayniac wrote:
FWIW I plan to try a squad of 7 with 1x axe, 1x 2 knives, 2x axes and maces, 2x flail, champion with sword and fist, in a Rhino.

Toss a foul blightspawn in with them to protect them from death via charges and help melt stuff that gets in the way with it's flamer. Maybe deep strike a lord of contagion within 7 of a few units to help stack up some mortal wounds!
It is a shame we cannot take razorbacks, I feel like plague marines would be great in them!

A unit of 6 blight termi with one flail and 5 axe makes more 0,7 W vs T6 and 0,8 W vs T7; they are a rhino and a model, which result in 11 W more. At the same time 100 bolters are 3,7W, 1 dead termi vs 7,4 W and 7 dead PM

Vs 10 plasma that means that 2 PM goes down but 1 terminator and 3W cost us more point wise.

This teaches me 2 things: we are resilient asf and plasma vs terminator still makes us cry

In the end they have a really similar outcome for being infantry and the decision is really personal, more than tactical. Yes a rhino might put you in CC as alpha strike easier than the terminators, but they can blow you up your rhino easy if you don't go first, leaving you a long way to go, having 1/2 d6"+1 advantage on the terminators.

I didn't check the deathsrhoud because they are so overpriced it is ridiculous.

Really, we are really really hard to bring down. Dad loves us with his putriescence

Thanks for doing the math on that! It's good to know both are pretty decent options, as I've been torn between which I would rather run.

**Milkshaker**

SilverAlien wrote:

Predators are, without a doubt, better anti tank for their points than plagueburst crawlers.

On what math is this based? for instance (please correct me if I'm wrong, my math isn't always that great):

VS rhino (1 round of shooting, stationary):
____________2,66667 hits
____________1,77778 succesful wound rolls
____________0,29693 succesful saves (0,1667 saves per wound * 1,7778 wounds = 0,29693 succesful saves)
this leaves___ 1,48182 unsaved wounds (1,7778 wounds - 0,29693 succesful saves)
damage_____ 5,18519 damage dealt (1,48182 unsaved wounds * 3,5 average damage of a D6)

With the points of a laspred, this is 0,0273 wounds per point spent.

plagueburst crawler with 2 ectoplasm cannons, plagueburst mortar, heavy slugger: an average of 4,4815 damage dealt in a single round
using the same technique for calculating wounds/damage as the calculation above:

2x ectoplasm:____________________________________2,3333 damage dealt after saves
1x plagueburst mortar with 3.5 shots (reroll 1 to wound):__1,8148 damage dealt after saves
1x heavy slugger:_________________________________0,3333 damage dealt after saves
total damage:____________________________________4,4815

With the total points of this plagueburst crawler, that means an effectiveness of 0,0287 wounds per point spent.

This changes however, when targetting toughness 8. In that case, the predator wins out. Against toughness 7 though, the PBC seems more efficient points-wise to me (and I believe that I see more T7 or less than T8 or more).

**Dr. Temujin**

Not sure this was mentioned before, but on Plague Marines, are plasma guns or blight launchers better for shooting? On the one hand, plasma are the most reliable Marine killers, and good for dealing with light/medium vehicles. However, they only deal 1 damage, or 2 if you have a Lord per gun. On the other hand, blight launchers have a better damage potential with Damage D3, but that's if the shot gets through. It's weaker in terms of raw firepower than the plasma.
Or rather than which is better, what roles do each weapon serve?

**gwarsh41**

I am in the same boat with blight v plasma. I find there are much more difficult decisions like this in 8th, even with units. Things are not so all or nothing as 7th was, making everything a tougher choice.

**ballzonya**

Death Shroud termies in Land Raider is my preferred method. I tried them 3 times and 2 times deep striking and they failed the charge and never made it in before they died with the land raider they got in and wrecked.

**Kaiyanwang**

gwarsh41 wrote:
I am in the same boat with blight v plasma. I find there are much more difficult decisions like this in 8th, even with units. Things are not so all or nothing as 7th was, making everything a tougher choice.

That is what it is supposed to be, right?

**Wayniac**

gwarsh41 wrote:
I am in the same boat with blight v plasma. I find there are much more difficult decisions like this in 8th, even with units. Things are not so all or nothing as 7th was, making everything a tougher choice.

I am taking a squad of each, both with champions with plasma. I think that, unless you're going full competitive filth lists (in which case you probably aren't taking plague marines, anyways), I think that compromises is going to be the way to go. For instance, I'm thinking of taking 1 plague spewer on my CC plague marine squad since I don't have the points for 2 since I also want a combi-plasma on a Blightlord terminator; rather than get one and not the other, I'll compromise and take a little of both. Is it the most optimal? No, likely not. But it will be good enough, and IMHO that's the proper way to play.

**SilverAlien**

Milkshaker wrote:
SilverAlien wrote:

Predators are, without a doubt, better anti tank for their points than plagueburst crawlers.

On what math is this based? for instance (please correct me if I'm wrong, my math isn't always that great):

This changes however, when targetting toughness 8. In that case, the predator wins out. Against toughness 7 though, the PBC seems more efficient points-wise to me (and I believe that I see more T7 or less than T8 or more).

Basically it was just a ballpark estimate looking a few different scenarios. I also included a chaos lord (with arch contaminator for the crawlers) which shifts it as well.

In short, toughness 7 sv 3+ no invulnerable is the best possible situation for the crawler compared to the predator. If it's facing an enemy with a 5+ invulnerable or a 4+ save, the extra AP from the entropy cannons is lost. If it's facing toughness 8, it takes a big hit on both guns. If there is a negative BS modifier, it hurts the crawler more. So it does, in part, depend on what you are facing, but the predator outperforms the crawler in damage per point in the widest variety of situations.

**dan2026**

How are people feeling about Hellbrutes with Twin Lascanons and Missile Launchers as anti armour?

Being able to move and shoot without penalty seems good.
But I'm worried they might be too expensive in points.

They come out slightly cheaper than a Plague burst Crawler with Entropy Canons. But are no way near as durable.
However I'm wondering if they may put out more consistent damage as the Crawler only hits on 5+ if it moves.

A Predator with 4 lascannons comes out a lot more expensive and also suffers the movement penalties. Although it hits on a 4+ this time.

**XT-1984**

I prefer the Crawler, as people have said it is much tougher than Predators and Helbrutes.

And if a unit is dead its damage and threat is nothing (after it explodes of course).

**Luciferian**

Dr. Temujin wrote:
Not sure this was mentioned before, but on Plague Marines, are plasma guns or blight launchers better for shooting? On the one hand, plasma are the most reliable Marine killers, and good for dealing with light/medium vehicles. However, they only deal 1 damage, or 2 if you have a Lord per gun. On the other hand, blight launchers have a better damage potential with Damage D3, but that's if the shot gets through. It's weaker in terms of raw firepower than the plasma.
Or rather than which is better, what roles do each weapon serve?

If you're going for pure firepower I'd say three Plasma Guns in five-man squads are probably best. Once you get into 18" range you can sit there and fire away. However, if you're using a squad for anything other than ranged firepower the Blight Launchers are probably better because they can be fired after advancing. So if you have a large CC squad you're trying to foot slog toward the enemy you could throw a couple of those on and give them a bit of shooting power while they're running into position.

**nfe**

XT-1984 wrote:

And if a unit is dead its damage and threat is nothing (after it explodes of course).

True, but I in a combined c.9 turns of shooting, I think I've had a PBC cause one wound on a Repulsor and one wound on a marine. I've obviously been unlucky with the rolls but they really don't have the number of shots to make up for the ballistic skill.

Predators might be the answer for me (handy that I much prefer the model to the PBC [on the basis of photographs, anyway]).

**dan2026**

nfe wrote:
XT-1984 wrote:

And if a unit is dead its damage and threat is nothing (after it explodes of course).

True, but I in a combined c.9 turns of shooting, I think I've had a PBC cause one wound on a Repulsor and one wound on a marine. I've obviously been unlucky with the rolls but they really don't have the number of shots to make up for the ballistic skill.

Predators might be the answer for me (handy that I much prefer the model to the PBC [on the basis of photographs, anyway]).

This is what worries me. I don't think the Crawler has the dakka to make up for its mediocre BS.
So I think Predators or Hellbrutes may be the better options.

I can't decide between the two though. The both seem to have advantages and disadvantages.

**Bremon**

A crawler definitely shouldn’t be moving if possible. 5+ to hit is absolutely brutal, BS4+ sort of sucks to begin with.

**Nightlord1987**

Curious to see how people are getting charges off in Land Raiders. They get a 3 inch disembark and a 4 inch move, but you'd have to have moved up the previous turn to your intended target. Wouldn't smart opponents just avoid the LR and its contents?

I do enjoy my Land Raider, I've been using Plasma Havocs in my Night Lords list, but I would like to give Deathshrouds termies a try.

**SilverAlien**

nfe wrote:
XT-1984 wrote:

And if a unit is dead its damage and threat is nothing (after it explodes of course).

True, but I in a combined c.9 turns of shooting, I think I've had a PBC cause one wound on a Repulsor and one wound on a marine. I've obviously been unlucky with the rolls but they really don't have the number of shots to make up for the ballistic skill.

Predators might be the answer for me (handy that I much prefer the model to the PBC [on the basis of photographs, anyway]).

Are you using the entropy cannons? They add a lot more firepower than just the main gun.