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Question is in the title really, are Talons of the Emperor viable as a solo army, or should they only be take as/with allies?

 snykyninja wrote:
Question is in the title really, are Talons of the Emperor viable as a solo army, or should they only be take as/with allies?

The genera consensus is they are actually overpowered as a primary Detachment. They suck at low points simply due to high cost of the core units you need. But once you expand to 2k+ they do very well.

 snykyninja wrote:
Question is in the title really, are Talons of the Emperor viable as a solo army, or should they only be take as/with allies?

Lets see - 2+ across the board, Ap 2/3 in CC, powerfull shooting. I think - yes. But they have to be carefull. They will never outnumber the enemy, are prone to being overrun and don't have a lot of shooting. They are viable, but have to be used with skill to achieve any effect. But if you do -it will be devastating.

Suck at low points? Friend of mine tested them at 1000p vs Gk and AM (ok, not the strongest of armies)... he simply deleted things at will. They had no chance at all.

I imagine they will do even worse vs 30k marines, which have lesser defenses

 Vector Strike wrote:
Suck at low points? Friend of mine tested them at 1000p vs Gk and AM (ok, not the strongest of armies)... he simply deleted things at will. They had no chance at all.

I imagine they will do even worse vs 30k marines, which have lesser defenses

But your friend also played low point so gk vs custodes. So he picked am elite marine army against an even more elite marine army. It's a mirror match up except gk are like a gakky mirror.

Vs most armies at that points level any custodes lost is a huge blow it's also quite common to have a dread at 1k points and unless they have power gauntlets the dread can tie up a unit and possibly kill them. They also have no access to the tank Tribune below 2k which is probbably their most overpowered unit.

I probably misspoke when I said suck but they shouldn't do well. At higher points they definitely scale far better when you can bring toys.

They are a small, elite force in 30K. You are looking at what, around 35-40 models at 2,500+ points? Sure, they are all 2+/4++ (give or take the ++, different units have a different invulnerable save, right?). They will absolutely wreck face in close combat, but they will probably be outnumbered in close combat, and there is something to be said about quantity over quality. Some math says 27 bolter shots to kill 1 Custodies.

They have great saves, but everyone you lose, you will feel it. Unless you take a lot of very expensive transports, the infantry will be very slow foot slogging across the table, and while they have great guns, they are all less then 18" range (12" for the AP3 weapons). Getting to an objective could be difficult, and if you are forced to stay on that objective, well, prepare for the incoming fire. They have no anti-air capabilities, and that could be a factor. They have one special character that can take on a Primarch, but he is a bit tricky to use, and it's an all or nothing kind of proposition. He'll either win right away, or get squished. The rest of the army could struggle against high armor (av14) or Lords of War choices. The gun on the Caladus tank is fantastic, except you have to roll that 6 for Armor Penetration to glance AV 14- which is 1 out of six shots, or more math... 7 shots to hit 6 times, 1 hit will Rend, meaning S7+6+d3 = 14-16, or on 1 rend, 1/3 will be a glance, 2/3 a penetration, ans you are still rolling on the vehicle damage chart (at +2), which is a wonky chart. Could do nothing, do blow up the vehicle. Point is, the Caladus Iliastus accelerator autocannon only has 3 shots, meaning it will probably have to shoot an AV 14 tank over 3 shooting turns in order to blow it up. Against something with Flare Shields like a Spartan tank... you could be in trouble. Oh, and Rapid Tracking vs. a flying target still means snap shots, and rolling 6's even with twin linked on a 3 shot weapon means 4-5 shots to hit, or 2 rounds of shooting. Great thing about the Caladus though- it's a fast skimmer with Power of the Machine Spirit, so you should be able to leverage that for side armor shots.

Playing against them- treat them like an all Terminator army- which is what they basically are.

 Tamwulf wrote:
They are a small, elite force in 30K. You are looking at what, around 35-40 models at 2,500+ points? Sure, they are all 2+/4++ (give or take the ++, different units have a different invulnerable save, right?). They will absolutely wreck face in close combat, but they will probably be outnumbered in close combat, and there is something to be said about quantity over quality. Some math says 27 bolter shots to kill 1 Custodies.

They have great saves, but everyone you lose, you will feel it. Unless you take a lot of very expensive transports, the infantry will be very slow foot slogging across the table, and while they have great guns, they are all less then 18" range (12" for the AP3 weapons). Getting to an objective could be difficult, and if you are forced to stay on that objective, well, prepare for the incoming fire. They have no anti-air capabilities, and that could be a factor. They have one special character that can take on a Primarch, but he is a bit tricky to use, and it's an all or nothing kind of proposition. He'll either win right away, or get squished. The rest of the army could struggle against high armor (av14) or Lords of War choices. The gun on the Caladus tank is fantastic, except you have to roll that 6 for Armor Penetration to glance AV 14- which is 1 out of six shots, or more math... 7 shots to hit 6 times, 1 hit will Rend, meaning S7+6+d3 = 14-16, or on 1 rend, 1/3 will be a glance, 2/3 a penetration, ans you are still rolling on the vehicle damage chart (at +2), which is a wonky chart. Could do nothing, do blow up the vehicle. Point is, the Caladus Iliastus accelerator autocannon only has 3 shots, meaning it will probably have to shoot an AV 14 tank over 3 shooting turns in order to blow it up. Against something with Flare Shields like a Spartan tank... you could be in trouble. Oh, and Rapid Tracking vs. a flying target still means snap shots, and rolling 6's even with twin linked on a 3 shot weapon means 4-5 shots to hit, or 2 rounds of shooting. Great thing about the Caladus though- it's a fast skimmer with Power of the Machine Spirit, so you should be able to leverage that for side armor shots.

Playing against them- treat them like an all Terminator army- which is what they basically are.

At higher points they are actually very good at dealing with heavy armour. Adrathic weaponry all has armourbane which averages a 12 but if firing multiple weapons getting a pen or 2 isn't to hard. The Jetbikes corvae las pulsers also gak on vehicles and they have the mobility to avoid flare shields. A lot of the units also have access to s10 ap1 power fists those hurt vehicles really bad.

Valdor is actually worse vs primarchs than the standard Tribune. The tribune has a lower damage output as he doesn't force rerolls but his 3++ reroll and -1 to hit allow him to be a out most primarchs in the long run as they simply can't hurt him.

There transports are actually dirt cheap for what they give you compare it to a Proteus and you'll realize you are getting a ton for not a lot of points. Also Valdor gives every infantry squad free deepstrike which can be a really useful alternative deployment in high points games.

Titanicus wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:
They are a small, elite force in 30K. You are looking at what, around 35-40 models at 2,500+ points? Sure, they are all 2+/4++ (give or take the ++, different units have a different invulnerable save, right?). They will absolutely wreck face in close combat, but they will probably be outnumbered in close combat, and there is something to be said about quantity over quality. Some math says 27 bolter shots to kill 1 Custodies.

They have great saves, but everyone you lose, you will feel it. Unless you take a lot of very expensive transports, the infantry will be very slow foot slogging across the table, and while they have great guns, they are all less then 18" range (12" for the AP3 weapons). Getting to an objective could be difficult, and if you are forced to stay on that objective, well, prepare for the incoming fire. They have no anti-air capabilities, and that could be a factor. They have one special character that can take on a Primarch, but he is a bit tricky to use, and it's an all or nothing kind of proposition. He'll either win right away, or get squished. The rest of the army could struggle against high armor (av14) or Lords of War choices. The gun on the Caladus tank is fantastic, except you have to roll that 6 for Armor Penetration to glance AV 14- which is 1 out of six shots, or more math... 7 shots to hit 6 times, 1 hit will Rend, meaning S7+6+d3 = 14-16, or on 1 rend, 1/3 will be a glance, 2/3 a penetration, ans you are still rolling on the vehicle damage chart (at +2), which is a wonky chart. Could do nothing, do blow up the vehicle. Point is, the Caladus Iliastus accelerator autocannon only has 3 shots, meaning it will probably have to shoot an AV 14 tank over 3 shooting turns in order to blow it up. Against something with Flare Shields like a Spartan tank... you could be in trouble. Oh, and Rapid Tracking vs. a flying target still means snap shots, and rolling 6's even with twin linked on a 3 shot weapon means 4-5 shots to hit, or 2 rounds of shooting. Great thing about the Caladus though- it's a fast skimmer with Power of the Machine Spirit, so you should be able to leverage that for side armor shots.

Playing against them- treat them like an all Terminator army- which is what they basically are.

At higher points they are actually very good at dealing with heavy armour. Adrathic weaponry all has armourbane which averages a 12 but if firing multiple weapons getting a pen or 2 isn't to hard. The Jetbikes corvae las pulsers also gak on vehicles and they have the mobility to avoid flare shields. A lot of the units also have access to s10 ap1 power fists those hurt vehicles really bad.

Valdor is actually worse vs primarchs than the standard Tribune. The tribune has a lower damage output as he doesn't force rerolls but his 3++ reroll and -1 to hit allow him to be a out most primarchs in the long run as they simply can't hurt him.

There transports are actually dirt cheap for what they give you compare it to a Proteus and you'll realize you are getting a ton for not a lot of points. Also Valdor gives every infantry squad free deepstrike which can be a really useful alternative deployment in high points games.

Agreed on the transports and alternative deployment. The grav transports are amazing just as gunboats on their own and the infantry can just deep strike - or simply walk onto the board. Depends but one weakness the custodes have is mitigating deep strike scatter, even if 2+ armour protects against dangerous terrain somewhat. Still, a custodes grav transport is a very good unit in it's own right.

They are more than viable. Some folks are calling them the Eldar of the Age of Darkness because they get buckets of extra rules for almost no additional cost (see Contemptors for example), but I wouldn't go so far. They are most certainly top tier though, to the point that I would prefer they be limited to allied detachments in my games. If you build them to bust balls, few armies can match them, even Mechanicum who have been the bully of the setting until now.

A lot of talk of the custodes here, but what are peoples thoughts on the sisters of silence that are part of the same list? Could they be taken on their own? Should they be taken at all? And if so, what sort of ratio should they be taken in relation to allies or the custodes?

What is your preferred combat weapon for a tribune? Solarite Gauntlet?

 Ifurita wrote:
What is your preferred combat weapon for a tribune? Solarite Gauntlet?

Personally if I was to use the tribune I'd go all out with shield, solarite gauntlet, digital lasers and the +1 invuln item which I really can't remember of the top of my head. However, I also really like Constantin Valdor. He doesn't hit as hard as the tribune, nor is he as tanky; but he seems like fun, can still do a fair amount of damage with his unique spear, and his WT gives free DS to all custodes units which could allow for a good amount of flexibility.

 snykyninja wrote:

 Ifurita wrote:
What is your preferred combat weapon for a tribune? Solarite Gauntlet?

Personally if I was to use the tribune I'd go all out with shield, solarite gauntlet, digital lasers and the +1 invuln item which I really can't remember of the top of my head. However, I also really like Constantin Valdor. He doesn't hit as hard as the tribune, nor is he as tanky; but he seems like fun, can still do a fair amount of damage with his unique spear, and his WT gives free DS to all custodes units which could allow for a good amount of flexibility.

Valdor actually hits harder in every case even vs vehicles as his attacks cause pens not a 4+ no matter what. He also has a digital lasers in his wargear which would give him an addition attack. Though admittedly he is far less tanky but still a vice option especially for free deepstrike.

 snykyninja wrote:
A lot of talk of the custodes here, but what are peoples thoughts on the sisters of silence that are part of the same list? Could they be taken on their own? Should they be taken at all? And if so, what sort of ratio should they be taken in relation to allies or the custodes?

There are 2.5 armies right now that can really do Psyik Powers. Word Bearers, Thousand Sons, and 0.5 Space Wolves for the easy access to Priests of Fenris. After that, you have Legions that can take a Support Officer Legion Consul Libarian Consul. Sisters of Silence would absolutely shut down a Word Bearers or Thousand Sons psyker heavy army. Outside of that... you have a T3 S3 3+ unit with power weapons and/or bolters that cost as much as a Legion Tactical Squad but offers nowhere near the versatility of a Space Marine. Very much a niche unit that will cripple certain armies, and will almost be a throw away unit against other armies.

In my meta, we have no Word Bearer players (though one player says his next army will be Word Bearers) and no one has started a Thousand Sons army yet. But we picked up three Custodies players. One is shelving his Mechanicum, and the other two are 40K refugees, so it's no surprise they are gravitating to the "most OP new army" in the game. Probably one of the cheapest in 30K to get into as well. Funny enough, no one is starting up Space Wolves, which is kinda surprising given how well Russ is at killing Primarchs.

At least at first glance, it appears Custodes may be a 5th edition Grey Knights equivalent for 30K in terms of being a small potent force that's easy to collect and build.

I have to admit they scare me much more than either TS or SW, although some of that has to do with the matchup of me being a WE player. If they didn't have Preternatural Skill, I'd say bring it, but as is they're probably going to carve me up in the area of my army's greatest strength.

If I had an army that got its work done in the shooting phase, I'm not sure if I'd feel so strongly. Big nasty templates and guns are still going to be reasonably nasty against Custodes.

 Tamwulf wrote:

 snykyninja wrote:
A lot of talk of the custodes here, but what are peoples thoughts on the sisters of silence that are part of the same list? Could they be taken on their own? Should they be taken at all? And if so, what sort of ratio should they be taken in relation to allies or the custodes?

There are 2.5 armies right now that can really do Psyik Powers. Word Bearers, Thousand Sons, and 0.5 Space Wolves for the easy access to Priests of Fenris. After that, you have Legions that can take a Support Officer Legion Consul Libarian Consul. Sisters of Silence would absolutely shut down a Word Bearers or Thousand Sons psyker heavy army. Outside of that... you have a T3 S3 3+ unit with power weapons and/or bolters that cost as much as a Legion Tactical Squad but offers nowhere near the versatility of a Space Marine. Very much a niche unit that will cripple certain armies, and will almost be a throw away unit against other armies.

In my meta, we have no Word Bearer players (though one player says his next army will be Word Bearers) and no one has started a Thousand Sons army yet. But we picked up three Custodies players. One is shelving his Mechanicum, and the other two are 40K refugees, so it's no surprise they are gravitating to the "most OP new army" in the game. Probably one of the cheapest in 30K to get into as well. Funny enough, no one is starting up Space Wolves, which is kinda surprising given how well Russ is at killing Primarchs.

Yeah that's pretty much what I thought concerning the sisters of silence but it kinda seems a shame to have my suspicions confirmed. As to starting them as an op and cheap army; I really don't want to be considered one of those people but the models are really cool and I am rather short in terms of money to be starting most 30k armies. I'm definitely going to try and avoid the tribune though, that guy is just ridiculous and I feel like my opponent would be fully justified in reaching over the table and strangling me for fielding him.

 gorgon wrote:
At least at first glance, it appears Custodes may be a 5th edition Grey Knights equivalent for 30K in terms of being a small potent force that's easy to collect and build.

5th edition Grey Knights in being easy to collect and build. 7th edition Eldar in the attitude they invoke in your regular opponents (i.e. screw this I'm not playing vs this army anymore).



For the Sisters, their transports are very nice, and their unique character is very solid. Take her and a bodyguard of Raptor Oblivion Knights with Overawe, and they are a solid unit for sweeping up marines.