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Force multiplier for who exactly? Certainly Celestine isn't much of one for Sisters, but that's because Sisters start from such a low place to begin wtih.

Celestine is easily one of the best units in the game. I will argue that she is one of the best HQs in the game. She has a crazy amount of modifiers.

 Kanluwen wrote:
You get:
-Cadian Gate forced open
-Daemons corrupting a flipping Craftworld
-The Imperium, Eldar, and Mechanicus having to come together to revive a Primarch--on Macragge which is under siege by the Black Legion.

It's cute, of course, to talk about "Failbaddon the Armless" but it's not cute to have no clue what you're talking about.

So what you're saying is that Chaos should be happy that they get fluff?

Because Fluff = Tabletop Performance, right?

Actually, that's the main reason I'm bitter.

People can harp that Chaos have it so good in the fluff but that doesn't hold up in the slightest on the table. Hell, you've got these supplements with new models and chances to fix the damn book with each one, or perhaps bring some of the SCs up on par....and they instead stick another bandage on a battered book still running on the overpriced model of early 6th edition.

Traitor Legions - yes, I love it. I appreciate it. I feel it literally came 1 and three-quarter editions too late. It doesn't fix the artificial points bloat CSM has. It doesn't fix the mandatory challenges, that god awful boon table which stripped Chaos' options away from it or the fact that Chaos still falls behind.

Even with Traitor Legions - we're still middle tier at best. We don't hold to War Convocations (free upgrades across the board, including Grav). We don't hold to the underpointed Tau Triptide spam or the underpointed Eldar Scatbike-Hornet-Warp Hunter-WK standard. We don't hold to anything that has Grav.

And yeah, there are several Imperial armies in the same hole.

AM need a hell of a lot - they're in the same bad spot as Tyranids - the Cruddace Hole.
GKs and DW are both expensive elite armies without the durability.
Sisters are begging for an actual range.

But the Gathering Storm and the way the Triumvirates work has given them an in. For their points costs Cawl and Celestine are just dirty. The fact they can freely slot into any CAD or similar design detachment is also somewhat dirty.


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 Melissia wrote:
Force multiplier for who exactly? Certainly Celestine isn't much of one for Sisters, but that's because Sisters start from such a low place to begin wtih.

For any Imperial Army.

She can be taken as a HQ for ANY Imperial army. Not great if you're using a decurion style detachment but if using a CAD or equivalent or a small allied force...well...

Her blessings affect all Imperial units as well. They're not Sisters only. Same as Cawl's Archmagos Canticles. Add to that the fact she's remarkably resilient and can keep coming back she's also a great combat sponge for armies that don't like combat.

If anything her only downside is her Warlord Trait. But then, at least it isn't Typhus levels of awful (woo, Fear.)

Yeah, I'm out. It's like arguing with a brick wall that can't use spell check.

Suffice it to say, if Cawl, Celestine, or Guilliman start showing up in LVO and BAO lists that are in the Top 10, I will personally come back and reverse my position.

Likewise, I'm interested to see if the same can be said for Magnus, because this is already the case for Bel'akor.

I'm annoyed that the rules for a few units are in these books, so Like in the case of the triumerant of the imperium $90 for 3 models (albeit cool models) plus $50 book to use them. I get it on full codex books being $50, but I am salty at needing the book to use a handful of models (I mean one could download illegally, but that is a whole other conversation of risk vs reward, morality etc)

 -v10mega wrote:
Celestine is easily one of the best units in the game. I will argue that she is one of the best HQs in the game. She has a crazy amount of modifiers.

And?

Sisters armies already barely have enough firepower to contend with modern armies to begin with, and she doesn't really add any more. She can make an S8 large blast appear once per game, has an S5 powersword, and a heavy flamer. Aside from that, she has some buffs and functions as a tarpit.

Which is nice and all. A powerful, durable character. But when you're starting with an army that's weak enough as it is already, a force multiplier doesn't really have much to work with.

Or to sum it up mathematically, 3*2=6, whereas 3*4=12.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Yeah, I'm out. It's like arguing with a brick wall that can't use spell check.

Suffice it to say, if Cawl, Celestine, or Guilliman start showing up in LVO and BAO lists that are in the Top 10, I will personally come back and reverse my position.

Likewise, I'm interested to see if the same can be said for Magnus, because this is already the case for Bel'akor.

Magnus actually did well at an event recently - but that's largely using the formation of Daemon Princes and him to channel on 3+ with really cheap Tzeentch daemon allies.

I can easily see Cawl being a pick for the War Convocation as he can be taken in place of the Dominus and is an even better meat shield for Grav toting Kataphrons.

Super Smurf - well, he's basically a Daemon Prince with buffs up the wazoo. Not too sure what at the moment will benefit him - we'll need to see how easily he slots into things (i.e. can he substitute a Captain/Chapter Master in formations?) If he can I should imagine he might slide nicely into anything that gives ObSec. ObSec Super Smurf. Have fun getting that off an objective.

 -v10mega wrote:
Am I bitter? Of course I am. I am a Chaos player at heart. Gathering storm just buffed units that didnt need buffs. You had Mechanicus getting buffed, you have imperial death stars getting buffed (celestine) you have inquisitor i have a bolter crossbow greyfax and you get a primarch. you also get two super detachments and one of our chaos characters. Eldar literally got so overly overpowered that i get salty every time i look at competitve lists. Bare in mind that I am a competitve player. Fluff to me doesnt matter in terms of gameplay. Chaos needed a buff. We chaos players have the right to complain because you imperials have always been served rules on a golden platter (get it?) we had to scrape the bottom of the barrel to even think about competing to tourneys. Hell, you imperials can mix units. we can only mix units with different legion tactics, we cant mix daemons in with our marines (except for KDK but thats not what we wanted) yea sure your black templars and your sisters didnt get the buff they needed and i understand that. But our competitve viability as a codex in general is extremely mono build. I thank GW for their expanding of the plot and their new policies but i need more from them in terms of army stuff. Where are the tyranids? DE? SoB? instead we get rowboat gurlyman (although i love his fluff) and mister overpriced grey knight. Dont even get me started on the reborn warhost. I love this game. I love Chaos and its so hard for me to put it down because of mono builds. Sorry for ranting. IRON WITHIN IRON WITHOUT

I don't see this entirely as a rant, most people don't seem to appreciate exactly how OP GW has made Eldar this time around.

Ynnari are absolute beasts at this point. I watched a battle report on Miniwargaming this morning where someone used them to destroy a Space Wolves army.

https://www.miniwargaming.com/content/Ynnari-vs-Space-Wolves-Warhammer-40k-Battle-Report-Ep-100

(the site is currently down, but it will come back up.)

The Ynnari force ate up 7 drop pods worth of Space Wolves by turn 3. The Imperial Knight was the only unit left for the last 2 turns of the game. I was watching the game wondering how anything could win against this army, this was not a matter of unfortunate rolls so much as unfortunate rules.

Thinking if Ultramarines have made the same jump in power with Gathering Storm, it's going to be a very bleak picture for CSMs. Hoping that the Fallen Detachment Cypher comes with may offer a little relief, but not expecting much.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Yeah, I'm out. It's like arguing with a brick wall that can't use spell check.

Suffice it to say, if Cawl, Celestine, or Guilliman start showing up in LVO and BAO lists that are in the Top 10, I will personally come back and reverse my position.

Likewise, I'm interested to see if the same can be said for Magnus, because this is already the case for Bel'akor.

Brah you are here ti talk about figurines not to critique people's grammar. Good god I tried sympathizing with you. Oh well.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Yeah, I'm out. It's like arguing with a brick wall that can't use spell check.

Suffice it to say, if Cawl, Celestine, or Guilliman start showing up in LVO and BAO lists that are in the Top 10, I will personally come back and reverse my position.

Likewise, I'm interested to see if the same can be said for Magnus, because this is already the case for Bel'akor.

Magnus actually did well at an event recently - but that's largely using the formation of Daemon Princes and him to channel on 3+ with really cheap Tzeentch daemon allies.

I can easily see Cawl being a pick for the War Convocation as he can be taken in place of the Dominus and is an even better meat shield for Grav toting Kataphrons.

Super Smurf - well, he's basically a Daemon Prince with buffs up the wazoo. Not too sure what at the moment will benefit him - we'll need to see how easily he slots into things (i.e. can he substitute a Captain/Chapter Master in formations?) If he can I should imagine he might slide nicely into anything that gives ObSec. ObSec Super Smurf. Have fun getting that off an objective.

I think Magnus would stack well with the Thousand Sons, but you're right, unfortunately he just does better with the Tzeentch Daemons (because they needed a buff).

Cawl I'm still unsure on, I don't know Ad Mech rules enough to see if he can truly elevate them to top tier status.

Guilliman definitely seems strong, but I'm worried he'll have the same problems the Great Unclean One does: slow, can be locked down easily.


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 -v10mega wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Yeah, I'm out. It's like arguing with a brick wall that can't use spell check.

Suffice it to say, if Cawl, Celestine, or Guilliman start showing up in LVO and BAO lists that are in the Top 10, I will personally come back and reverse my position.

Likewise, I'm interested to see if the same can be said for Magnus, because this is already the case for Bel'akor.

Brah you are here ti talk about figurines not to critique people's grammar. Good god I tried sympathizing with you. Oh well.

"Brah" it's hard to take your critiques seriously when you can't even spellcheck.

Like I said you are here to talk with people about toys. No idea why you are critiquing me for my spell check abilities and not my arguments but ok have it your way. Oh and i do use spell check so i don't know whats the problem here.

Quick general reminder to all - please just report any posts that you feel are against the rules of the site.

Other than that...

 JNAProductions wrote:
You can run Thunder Wolves with Blood Angels. Just ally them in.

And even with Traitor Legions, CSM are weaker than SM.

That's no longer a BA list. The BA themselves are irrelevant at that point.

 -v10mega wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Yeah, I'm out. It's like arguing with a brick wall that can't use spell check.

Suffice it to say, if Cawl, Celestine, or Guilliman start showing up in LVO and BAO lists that are in the Top 10, I will personally come back and reverse my position.

Likewise, I'm interested to see if the same can be said for Magnus, because this is already the case for Bel'akor.

Brah you are here ti talk about figurines not to critique people's grammar. Good god I tried sympathizing with you. Oh well.

I like your grammar. It is expressive more than declarative and entirely appropriate for expressing the passion you are trying to convey. As a fellow Chaos player, your thoughts mirror my private ones.

@ OP: I am actually surprised that GW tries to force customers to buy three different minis at once with these Gathering Storm boxes. It would have been more sensible to sell the minis separately. So another opportunity to generate revenue was missed.

ERJAK wrote:
More Chaos players whining about not being snowflakey enough. Must be a day that ends in Y again.

Wow that was constructive, thanks.


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 Strg Alt wrote:
@ OP: I am actually surprised that GW tries to force customers to buy three different minis at once with these Gathering Storm boxes. It would have been more sensible to sell the minis separately. So another opportunity to generate revenue was missed.

Yeah, I have seen alot of people splitting the boxes, including my local GW store manager!


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 Tooooon wrote:

Fastforward to now - I've read a bit about whats going on, and know the basics. However I see or feel ZERO threat from Chaos currently - Heck, they've barely been mentioned besides "Chaos has destroyed/overwhelmed Cadia, we're all doomed!" followed by silence while we now have three releases to give some sort of hope against this threat....

exactly this! They had a kind of Victory at Fenris (and I don't care how the Wolves suffered, it was hardly a win), and now they are not the focus of their own victory.

Yes, you can call me a special snowflake chaos (like old mate above), though imagine if your faction was having it's big moment, and the opposite faction got 6 new characters/models!!!

 Rippy wrote:

 Tooooon wrote:

Fastforward to now - I've read a bit about whats going on, and know the basics. However I see or feel ZERO threat from Chaos currently - Heck, they've barely been mentioned besides "Chaos has destroyed/overwhelmed Cadia, we're all doomed!" followed by silence while we now have three releases to give some sort of hope against this threat....

exactly this! They had a kind of Victory at Fenris (and I don't care how the Wolves suffered, it was hardly a win), and now they are not the focus of their own victory.

Yes, you can call me a special snowflake chaos (like old mate above), though imagine if your faction was having it's big moment, and the opposite faction got 6 new characters/models!!!

And yet imagine how the Guard feel, not even being represented on their own planet....

Come, friend-commiserate with us all! Guard players are getting the shaft too.

Sorry coming in late here.. DarkStarSabre seems to be full of the hurts..

The big thing that I found annoying is he comparison of 2nd Ed Codex with Current, You cannot really compare the two in any sense they are completely different games set in the same story setting.

And you seem to be getting angry because during all the Gathering Storm and the prelude Fenris Burns there have been a lot of things released for Choas Marines... Just not the things you wanted.

While in the same case.. any Spacemarine player who doesn't play Ultramarines are in a very similar place.

Cypher is also BB to Imperial and Choas Marines (just be using no daemons)
and if I read right can just be taken as a single model in a detachment for either faction

Right, because the non UM Space Marines didn't get access to Celestine, or Cawl, or Greyfax, or Castellans of the Imperium.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Right, because the non UM Space Marines didn't get access to Celestine, or Cawl, or Greyfax, or Castellans of the Imperium.

Well if you want to get technical about it... EVERYONE can used them, their usefulness to your list though will vary

But if you have a look at these characters while they are good they will not always synergize with your list set up and not worth taking

And your point? You can't deny they're very good characters (especially Celestine), but not fitting into every single list doesn't remove that.

Just because you can't use literally everything doesn't mean it gets annoying when the Imperium (well, more just Space Marines and their derivatives) get all the goodies, and Chaos (and hell, even Imperium stuff like Guard or Xenos like Nids) get left with scraps from the table.

I personally wasn't denying that. I was just denying the idea that they were effetive force multipliers for ALL armies that could take them.

But the Choas did get some goodies, Look at Magnus he is a good character, Traitor Legions is also good for people who want to play a Legion list.

Just because you didn't get what you wanted for yourself doesn't mean it isn't a good thing.

While there are a lot of tears here from Chaos players who actually got stuff, there are a lot of races who haven't gotten anything other then Fluff


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It is also a numbers things.

Chaos Spacemarines are just them and their Chapters.

the Imperium has Spacemarines (and chapters), Imperial Guard, Sisters of Battle and the Mechanicum (which then can be split down)

So here they are releasing Models and rules for 4 factions over 1

Magnus, usable by one legion if you care in the slightest about fluff, and forces you to take an extra CAD if you don't care about fluff, and runs best with Tzeentch Daemons. Not CSM.

Legions, which are admittedly, pretty nice. But not as good as Chapter Tactics.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Magnus, usable by one legion if you care in the slightest about fluff, and forces you to take an extra CAD if you don't care about fluff, and runs best with Tzeentch Daemons. Not CSM.

Legions, which are admittedly, pretty nice. But not as good as Chapter Tactics.

He is a LOW why does he force you to take a extra CAD, there is nothing in his rules that say you have to take him in a Thousands Sons list

Then you aren't playing as any Legion except Thousand Sons, or just no legion at all.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Then you aren't playing as any Legion except Thousand Sons, or just no legion at all.

So you have been saying that only Thousands Sons can use Magnus... But any Imperial can use all of the others?

That just doesn't make sense

Any chapter tactics can slot in Celestine, Cawl, Greyfax, or use Castellans.

If you want to actually use Legion rules, you HAVE TO be Thousand Sons-every other legion restricts what unique characters you can take.

GodDamUser wrote:
Sorry coming in late here.. DarkStarSabre seems to be full of the hurts..

Would you like me to play the 1980s Superman music for you? Find a phone booth for you to change in while we're at it? Since you seem to be presenting yourself as a hero.

The big thing that I found annoying is he comparison of 2nd Ed Codex with Current, You cannot really compare the two in any sense they are completely different games set in the same story setting.

You're right. Comparing two factions over the period of 5 editions to show how one faction has spiralled radically beyond the other is clearly just out of order. I mean, hey, it's just like that newfangled Evolution theory Darwin was touting in the 1800s, that wily old rascal!

And you seem to be getting angry because during all the Gathering Storm and the prelude Fenris Burns there have been a lot of things released for Choas Marines... Just not the things you wanted.

Ok. Let's look at new Chaos releases again.

Kharn - resculpt of ancient character model. I would point out that Calgar got his Resculpt in 4th edition and I would sensibly chuckle and point out that Celestine also technically got a resculpt as well. Only her model was from late 3rd edition, not mid 2nd edition like Kharn.
Ahriman - see Kharn.
Thousand Sons - Oh look, they redid a very specific kit for a very specific Legion to bring it from Finecast hybrid to Plastic. Hey look, the models replaced were older than Celestine.
Scarab Occult - Ok, you got me there. The first new unit in 4 years. Oh, wait. They happen to be...very Legion specific.

While in the same case.. any Spacemarine player who doesn't play Ultramarines are in a very similar place.

Ah yes, you're right. I forgot that Imperial Space Marines were languishing in terms of releases. I mean, their basic kit...how old is that now? What's that Timmy? It was released in 3rd, retooled for 4th, retooled again for 5th and redone entirely for 6th?!

Meanwhile the CSM kit.... was released in 3rd ed. Retooled for 4th..........and we're waiting.

Cypher is also BB to Imperial and Choas Marines (just be using no daemons)
and if I read right can just be taken as a single model in a detachment for either faction

He's also Come the Apocalypse to KDK. So to even take Cypher in an ITC build as a CSM player.... you literally sacrifice KDK, Be'lakor and Chaos Daemons. Do you know how hard that hits CSM on a competitive level?

But let's not fret Superman.

I mean, your statement about other SMs being upset with the Gathering Storm releases....

Hmm.

HMM.

Do your chapter tactics actively prevent you from taking these characters in a detachment? No, they don't.

You read Traitor Legions yet? You read the restrictions each Legion has?

An Imperial Fist, Raven Guard or Ultramarine detachment can all take Celestine or Cawl as a HQ choice. The detachment still counts being Imp Fists/Raven Guard/Ultras so all the units in it still get their benefits.

Now try that with a Chaos Traitor Legions detachment.

Wait.

You can't. Cypher's not permitted to be taken in any of the Legion lists. You're dipping into a seperate detachment/formation to bring him along. 'Oh but you can just slot him in as a HQ.' At which point the detachment is no longer considered a Traitor Legion detachment so loses all the bonuses associated.

Imagine losing your Chapter Tactics across an entire detachment just because you put Celestine in. Wait, you can't.