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Patience is a virtue. C'mon people, GW is cranking out new things at a never before seen rate and it's still not enough. If you want absolutely every update to involve the faction you play, play every army. It's that simple. Or wait for when they update your specific faction. I started an Ad Mech army to rationalize using Cawl since I like the model so much. This is the point to these supplements and huge special characters, get people buying different armies.

Be optimistic and think about what you can possibly get, not piss and moan you haven't got anything yet.

 Melissia wrote:
Its what I keep saying. People say "well you got a force multiplier" and they don't seem to understand, a force multiplier still needs something strong to multiply to begin with.

Exactly. Its like people telling Sisters players that they are good now because they got Celestine, well ignoring the fact that Celestine is a general Imperial HQ, even with her especially good for the Sisters buff she is still not going to bring them up to competitive standards because the Sisters are borked to begin with (ignoring the horrendous pricing issues on 20+ year old models) because their codex is still stuck in 3rd/4th edition and they have zilch in the way of heavy hitting power.
Likewise, the Guard are stuck in an extremely nerfed version of our 3rd edition Infantry and 5th edition tanks, leading us to find ourselves fighting our battles with a codex that is woefully out of date. Hell, someone said "just stick in Cawl and he will make you tanks better". Yeah, well if he is doing that to ours then imagine what he is doing to the Space Marine tanks that have been buffed by amazing formation bonuses, or Imperial Knight armies that are OP as hell to begin with. Throw in some AdMech for the lulz.
Look at Celestine and imagine what she does to a Spacemarine army allied with Inquisition or Guard for Priests, with a heavy DS assault focus (looking at you Skyhammer).

Yes, these are 'plug in and play' units but they inevitably work far better with the power armies than they do with the ones that they are designed to or that need the buff.

 Gamerely wrote:
Patience is a virtue.

*narrows eyes*
Are you... unironically telling a long-time Sisters of Battle player to be patient?

You DO realize that, aside from Celestine, we haven't gotten a new miniature since third edition, and most of our miniatures are still second edition, and we have effectively gotten nothing new except for a few apocalypse formations since third, as well?

I've BEEN patient. For over a fething decade now. You don't fething KNOW what patient means.

Freaking dark eldar players having forgotten what it was like to be forgotten by GW.

BrianDavion wrote:

Since 2nd ed....how many new Imperial SCs have there been compared to Chaos?

can't rightly say as I've not been around since 2nd, however I feel a Need to point something out..
Imperium of Man Codices: ~10 (this is approx as some codices you may not count, like Imperial Knights etc)

Chaos Space Marines Codices: 3 (and one is a Hybrid of the two)

so the IoM Having more special characters... KINDA MAKES SENSE.

This is the crux of the problem. IoM has ~10 you said? Well, there are at least 7 different Legions in the Chaos family. None of them, save Black Legion which technically has its own Supplement, have their own Codex. All of them have the lore, standing and player base to have all the same treatment as SW, DA, DW or whatever SM factions and yet get less treatment than Eldar with 2 main codices, a supplemental army and now the GS book which further expands their powers, as if they weren't already BB with each other.

Personally, I'm not that upset by everything being in one book as I'm sure any SM player would be happy to have all the SM faction rules housed in a single book and a Supplement. But it does show at least a 2 decade span of laser focus and that's not even touching on the Xenos players who choose the supposedly uneradicable Orks or the mindnumbingly vast threat of the galaxy devouring Tyranids. But frakk yeah, let's beef up the Tau!

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Its what I keep saying. People say "well you got a force multiplier" and they don't seem to understand, a force multiplier still needs something strong to multiply to begin with.

Exactly. Its like people telling Sisters players that they are good now because they got Celestine, well ignoring the fact that Celestine is a general Imperial HQ, even with her especially good for the Sisters buff she is still not going to bring them up to competitive standards because the Sisters are borked to begin with (ignoring the horrendous pricing issues on 20+ year old models) because their codex is still stuck in 3rd/4th edition and they have zilch in the way of heavy hitting power.
Likewise, the Guard are stuck in an extremely nerfed version of our 3rd edition Infantry and 5th edition tanks, leading us to find ourselves fighting our battles with a codex that is woefully out of date. Hell, someone said "just stick in Cawl and he will make you tanks better". Yeah, well if he is doing that to ours then imagine what he is doing to the Space Marine tanks that have been buffed by amazing formation bonuses, or Imperial Knight armies that are OP as hell to begin with. Throw in some AdMech for the lulz.
Look at Celestine and imagine what she does to a Spacemarine army allied with Inquisition or Guard for Priests, with a heavy DS assault focus (looking at you Skyhammer).

Yes, these are 'plug in and play' units but they inevitably work far better with the power armies than they do with the ones that they are designed to or that need the buff.

Yeah. And beyond that, Celestine is hardly a Sisters character anymore. She's an Imperium character with some Sisters flavor. To me, that's a big difference. I honestly don't mind being low on the totem pole power-wise, but I think it's reasonable to expect other players to recognize that Celestine wasn't really an update for Sisters. She's nice, but she's not unique to our army any more. Plus, she hardly plays well with the rest of the Sisters codex I mean, it's the same as before, but before she was 65 points cheaper and just an interesting addition to a unit of Seraphim, whereas now she's the centerpiece of a list, and the rest of the list can barely keep up with her.

To be clear, I'm not disagreeing with you, Master of Ordinance, just adding to what you said.

 Gamerely wrote:
Patience is a virtue. C'mon people, GW is cranking out new things at a never before seen rate and it's still not enough. If you want absolutely every update to involve the faction you play, play every army. It's that simple. Or wait for when they update your specific faction. I started an Ad Mech army to rationalize using Cawl since I like the model so much. This is the point to these supplements and huge special characters, get people buying different armies.

Be optimistic and think about what you can possibly get, not piss and moan you haven't got anything yet.

Ok, fine. If it wasn't Cadia. If it was anything but Cadia, Krieg, Catachan, or any big IG planet. I'd be like, 'cool, GW starting to crank out more stuff, can't wait for the Guard'. But this is fething Cadia. CADIA. Can I not stress this enough. What if, Emperor prevent it, Mars fell and we got a new faction for the Nids, and a 6 models that aren't AdMech. In a book about Cadia the IG deserve to get the attention. Them and Chaos. Those are the two. Black Legion and Cadians. Not Admech, not the inquisition, not the sisters, not the fething SM.

As for the sisters. Ya they deserve an update. A serious update, (though not in a book about Cadia) I'd have them as an ally if they were updated.

The reason Sisters get mentioned is because they came up in the Codex: Imperial Agents book which was released as a lead-up to Gathering Storm.

... and basically got nothing out of it save a lukewarm formation that requires Sisters to take a lame tax unit in order to take.

Sisters are an army basically still operating under a mix between late-3rd and mid-5th era rules and metagame, and given numerous chances to update them, GW said "nah lets reprint".

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Clue is in the name.

GATHERING Storm.

Bide your time for when the Storm breaks.

/Rant On

lol, CSM players have zero reason to be optimistic.

Traitors legion seems like it's ok when you crack it open, but then you start "discovering" all the "fun" that totally hoses your army.

Death Guard for example:
1. Sure take the warband, that is full of units that are now overpriced in order to take MoN. "Sweet a stealth buff!" you exclaim, only to get wiped anyway unless you take biker spam....(That lack any kind of punching power in any measurable way.)
2. Finish your warband, oh look I need an Aux unit, spawn it is as every other formation is insanely steep to field. Oh and spawn get no FnP and cost more due to MoN. SUPER.
3. Then you find out regular CSM marines are still terrible, nothing but high point forge world drop pods or rhinos to move them around...and CSM marines punch things like a wet paper bag.
4. Ok I'm going to take the Plague Marine thing, and I've spent 1000 points for rhino vets........
5. Ok I'm going to use CAD, looks thru CSM book for "solid" units that aren't helturkeys or bikers.....sigh.
6. Forge world it is! Crud, ITC has banned the only good Chaos LoW, you know cause CSM super heavies are broken and Eldar and Tau are not....(Typhon)

At this point I either have to take utter cheese that does not belong in death guard, or find a tourney that allows me to run a typhon and forge world units.

And Death Guard were supposed to be "good"! Remember that? Turns out FnP on a T5 model that costs 15 points and hits at I3 ain't that great.
Someone then shouts, "Take havocs! They are great!"....
Or I can just take the obliterators I pretty much have to take anyway for a better result.....I'd love to take the formation but it's required to take THREE units of oblits, MoN oblits are insanely point heavy.

/Rant off

If I did not like DG so much I would probably play Black Legion, Iron Warriors, or Emp Children. All three seem to make good units even better and have decent choices and point options compared to others. Oh who am I kidding, I'd take Word Bearers and play on hard mode lol.

We all realize that if we get something it will be Khorne or Black Legion right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
The reason Sisters get mentioned is because they came up in the Codex: Imperial Agents book which was released as a lead-up to Gathering Storm.

... and basically got nothing out of it save a lukewarm formation that requires Sisters to take a lame tax unit in order to take.

Sisters are an army basically still operating under a mix between late-3rd and mid-5th era rules and metagame, and given numerous chances to update them, GW said "nah lets reprint".

I play sisters, they are MUCH more competitive then my DG army with the updates.

Cleared up fire points.
The Saint is a beast mode HQ
You can still use the digital codex
Add a single knight to any sisters army and you will have fun no matter what.
I also tend to add the Sniper assassin dude in order to snipe out death star buff models, it works wonders.

Just my opinion playing sisters a bunch.

Deathguard got a sweet deal compared to the Thousand Sons.

15 points for T5 FNP Infantry seems like a bargain next to 23 points for a Rubric Marine who can't run and can't overwatch and has no Grenades. Who dies just as easily to Lasguns, Bolters or Shootas as a 13 point CSM.


Also quite bitter that to use Magnus you need the Curse of the Wulfen (Psychic Powers), Wrath of Magnus (rules), Codex: CSM (Spawn/Boons) and Codex: Daemons (Flamers/Chariots). For the privilege of taking an army of over costed well out of date Thousand Sons that stand NO chance against anything but the friendliest of lists without Magnus.

I envy the detachments of other Legions. At least you can take your formations without spending 2000 points on one.

That said I feel your pain.

I hope there is some major rules overhaul in the new edition, its the only chance all CSM stand at ever improving.

Oh gee golly, I can add in inquisition units, or hey, why not add Space Marines! ERMAGERD I FUGGIN' LOVE ME SUM SPESS MARNIES! WHY, IT'S ALMOST LIKE THERE'S NO REASON FOR ME TO HAVE ANY SISTERS AT ALL, WHY NOT JUST PLAY SPESHIAL MARIES AND CALL THEM ALL SUE AND PRETEND THEY'RE SISTERS OF BATTLE NO ONE WILL EVER NOTICE THE DIFFERENCE!

But seriously, "you can add in units from other books" is a very uninspired and unconvincing defense of the status quo.

Less sarcasm, less all caps, more constructive contributions. Thanks.

 motyak wrote:
Less sarcasm, less all caps, more constructive contributions. Thanks.

I suppose? But the meat of my post ("But seriously, "you can add in units from other books" is a very uninspired and unconvincing defense of the status quo.") stands, IMO.

And... well, it really isn't. Imagine if Space Marines sucked. BUT! GW released a new greater daemon of tzeentch, who can buff all marines! Aren't you happy now that your Space Marines are competitive if you include some daemons in their ranks?

It's just kind of a silly argument. Because a lot of people complaining about their faction being weak chose and continue to choose their faction because they like the lore, and they like the faction for itself. To be forced to throw in some unit from some other faction just to make it from low-tier to almost workable but not quite strong enough for competitive play feels, to many people, actually kinda insulting.

edit: To give another example, it's like if GW allowed Tyranids to take Eldar allies. Yeah, their army could be stronger with Eldar allies (though one might ask why you'd bother to take Tyranids at all in that case?). But I'm pretty sure the idea of doing so would be pretty damn insulting to Tyranid players, especially if Tyranids themselves continued to be ignored in the process.

Ok, honestly, here's what I would have changed.
Make Fall of Cadia about IN, IG vs BL.
The next in the series can be about other stuff, I don't care, it's just Fall of Cadia that bothers me.

As to update the other codices I believe as we aproaching 8th ed. we should look towards that. Heavy Tanks in general need a buff. Allow spilt fire in squadrons, each weapon to shoot at different targets, and ordenance to not force others to split fire (on Heavy Tanks only). Ok, that's a start for IG(since they are have a pretty buig forcus on tanks).

Next the sisters, honestly don't know enough about them, but they need an update, as well as plastic models. Its not worth 100$ for a single battle squad. A start collecvting should also be added. A supplement would also be helpful.

I not going to go into any others because of lack of knowledge.

 Melissia wrote:

 motyak wrote:
Less sarcasm, less all caps, more constructive contributions. Thanks.

And... well, it really isn't. Imagine if Space Marines sucked. BUT! GW released a new greater daemon of tzeentch, who can buff all marines! Aren't you happy now that your Space Marines are competitive if you include some daemons in their ranks?

edit: To give another example, it's like if GW allowed Tyranids to take Eldar allies. Yeah, their army could be stronger with Eldar allies (though one might ask why you'd bother to take Tyranids at all in that case?). But I'm pretty sure the idea of doing so would be pretty damn insulting to Tyranid players, especially if Tyranids themselves continued to be ignored in the process.

This is what CSM players were told quite a fair bit long ago, or told to use SM books to represent their army because they do it better then their own codex.

Yep. And even though they're all still just Space Marines, most CSM players hated it.

You know what I have just been thinking...

My Genestealer Cult could use a Massive Spacemarine to be a massive distraction..

Take GSC, then add a small Imperial Guard CAD with Girlyman as a LoW

GodDamUser wrote:
You know what I have just been thinking...

My Genestealer Cult could use a Massive Spacemarine to be a massive distraction..

Take GSC, then add a small Imperial Guard CAD with Girlyman as a LoW

It's GSC, so I'd have thought distraction carnifex.

But no, you brought a distraction Primarch. That's thinking with LOWs.

 gnome_idea_what wrote:

It's GSC, so I'd have thought distraction carnifex.

But no, you brought a distraction Primarch. That's thinking with LOWs.

Carnifex die too easily, this guy will just keep on plodding along

 sfshilo wrote:


Cleared up fire points.
The Saint is a beast mode HQ
.

Just remind me how many of the characters released where IG or SoB?

 master of ordinance wrote:
Just remind me how many of the characters released where IG or SoB?

One sisters char, who wasn't even a new char, just a re-release of the same one we've had since third.

 Melissia wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Just remind me how many of the characters released where IG or SoB?

One sisters char, who wasn't even a new char, just a re-release of the same one we've had since third.

She did get a rules buff with her release though. Some power weapon toting bodyguards and the ability to cry them back to life, as well as Acts of Faith that affect other Factions beyond Sisters.

Not much, but certainly better than nothing at all.

Hell, I'm kind of sad looking at Cypher's rules in the 3rd book.

They've made him even more inaccessible to Chaos - Fallen becoming a seperate faction (rather than being CSM) and having KDK and Daemons as Come The Apocalypse allies basically shuts Cypher out of any competitive event (as most of them don't allow Come the Apocalypse allies of any form) since CSM are so heavily reliant on Daemons and KDK allies to function atm.

I'm bitter because in Fall of CADIA the Imperial Guard didn't receive one model and have barely been mentioned in the other two books.

If Creed was part of the Triumvirate of the Imperium I would have been wholly satisfied. But no, we get an ocdonotsteal Inquisitor instead. At this rate I'd bet money on Yarrick being captured by the Orks in the inevitable Ghaz book and the Imperial Triumvirate will consist of a Sister of Silence, a Black Templar and a Blood Angel commander.

Edit: Beaten to it by Melissia and MoOrdinance, but the point still could do with repeating a million times and it wouldn't be enough.

Yup IG got hosed. I fear the IG are on the way out as a playable faction. As a faction it does not contain enough power armor or mary sue special chars to sell well. On the other handd, every CSM player should know by now that we along with Tyranids and orcs will always be a mid tier army at best. It wont change. GW cant have the bad guys on equal footing as it would ruin the power fantasy they are peddling to the tau eldar and IoM players.

Table wrote:
Yup IG got hosed. I fear the IG are on the way out as a playable faction. As a faction it does not contain enough power armor or mary sue special chars to sell well. On the other handd, every CSM player should know by now that we along with Tyranids and orcs will always be a mid tier army at best. It wont change. GW cant have the bad guys on equal footing as it would ruin the power fantasy they are peddling to the tau eldar and IoM players.

I wouldn't even call it peddling to IoM players. Just look at the Sisters and Imperial Guard. If those two get anything, it's a happy coincidence of the latest kit designed to be allied with Space Marines coming with Battle Brother for them as well.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Guard got nothing? Is that for real, did I just read that? You can take 3 new HQs and you get a formation where when units die they walk back on to the battlefield.

Or Belasarius giving +3 ballistic skill to your guard tank army? I guess that's worthless? Or the 4++? What a useless buff.

Taking a page from the CSM salt mine, the complaint is all those buffs are outside the IG faction. Even the Castellan Detachment (as good it is, which it is very good) requires you take a minimum 2 different factions.

Which you satisfy by taking any of the 3 HQ choices automatically. And most people run multiple factions already without complaint...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Just remind me how many of the characters released where IG or SoB?

One sisters char, who wasn't even a new char, just a re-release of the same one we've had since third.

Yeah it's exactly the same, if you discount new fluff, new rules, and new model(s) (plural for Superia).

 Arbitrator wrote:

Table wrote:
Yup IG got hosed. I fear the IG are on the way out as a playable faction. As a faction it does not contain enough power armor or mary sue special chars to sell well. On the other handd, every CSM player should know by now that we along with Tyranids and orcs will always be a mid tier army at best. It wont change. GW cant have the bad guys on equal footing as it would ruin the power fantasy they are peddling to the tau eldar and IoM players.

I wouldn't even call it peddling to IoM players. Just look at the Sisters and Imperial Guard. If those two get anything, it's a happy coincidence of the latest kit designed to be allied with Space Marines coming with Battle Brother for them as well.

Ugh dont, I have already have had one of my friends suggest getting some Marines so I can have Rawbutt Girlyman as well. Yes, it would be powerful, yes it would be an amazing attachment, no I will not do it because a few months later I would probably be running Marines with IG allies and a few more would see the IG removed entirely as the 'weakest link'

Everyone says "Oh look Cawl can give your tanks amazeballs". Thanks but no, because everything he does for IG he can also do for SM who are cheaper and better and can also take amazingly good tank formations.... Hel, they can get bonuses just for bringing a full squadron of tanks whereas an IG tank troop gains nothing.
I have Celestine because I have always loved her fluff and the new rules are amazing, but really she and the Sisters of Silence/Priest/Xenos Inquisitor deathstar she will be accompanying are the strong points in an otherwise laughably weak army. I have Greyfax because the model just looked awesome (steampunk power armour done well) but once again she is a steel link in a chain made from pewter.

The IG army is reaching the point where we cannot even compete in casual games, let alone hardcore tournament settings, as the favoured three get more and more whilst we languish with the Sisters.

Don't worry. You can still leafblower the BA off the table with few troubles.

Martel732 wrote:
Don't worry. You can still leafblower the BA off the table with few troubles.

*Laughs* Yeah, I wish :( Still, we are probably evenly matched about now.

Cypher can only only roll with CSM because they can represent renegades as well as traitors.

 Arbitrator wrote:
I'm bitter because in Fall of CADIA the Imperial Guard didn't receive one model and have barely been mentioned in the other two books.

If Creed was part of the Triumvirate of the Imperium I would have been wholly satisfied. But no, we get an ocdonotsteal Inquisitor instead. At this rate I'd bet money on Yarrick being captured by the Orks in the inevitable Ghaz book and the Imperial Triumvirate will consist of a Sister of Silence, a Black Templar and a Blood Angel commander.

Edit: Beaten to it by Melissia and MoOrdinance, but the point still could do with repeating a million times and it wouldn't be enough.

problem with making creed as part of a trimvirate is they'd have to basicly turn him from a "plug in captain replacement for a command squad" into a super duper stand alone character, in that regard I think if they did an "armageddon triomvirate" Yarrick's a little safer because he can be packed by himself without needing a command squad. that said IG I think GW feels just aren't as character driven as many of the armies out there.