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Following advice from Dakka I've re-written my Tzeentch Daemon list using Chaos Daemon codex, Wrath of Magnus and War Zone Fenris

Sarara'Kata'Andreas, High Priestess of the Sigils, Mistress of Change, The Oracle Queen Lord of Change: Psyker Lvl 3, The Impossible Robe, Greater Reward x2. ( Daemonology )

Kase'Tar, Keeper of the Codex Herald of Tzeentch: Psyker Lvl 2, Greater Reward, Exalted Locus of Creation. ( Daemonology )
Librarius Portent Pink Horrors (20): Iridescent Horror, Greater Reward. ( Discipline of Change )

Lok'san, Herald of Flux Herald of Tzeentch: Psyker Lvl 2, Greater Reward. ( Daemonology )
Disciples of Anarchy Pink Horrors (20): Iridescent Horror, Greater Reward. ( Discipline of Change )

Xen'sak, Herald of Signs Herald of Tzeentch: Psyker Lvl 2, Greater Reward. ( Daemonology )
Kasxi Conclave Pink Horrors (20): Iridescent Horror, Greater Reward. ( Discipline of Change )

Flamegars of the Dark Crypt Flamers of Tzeentch (9): Pyrocast, Greater Reward

The Howling Mist Screamers of Tzeentch (9)

Fla'San, The Infernus Burning Chariot of Tzeentch
Xan'Ard, Flamer Lord of Rida Burning Chariot of Tzeentch
Jak'Abo, Guardian of the Tzane Vault Burning Chariot of Tzeentch

Units to summon:
Kesta'Han'Kori, The Librarian, Aura of the Warp Lord of Change
Lik'Ard, Herald of the Brass Orbs Herald of Tzeentch: Psyker Lvl 2
The Eternal Flame Exalted Flamer of Tzeentch
Kartesa Wind Sharks Screamers of Tzeentch (3)
Flamehearts Flamers of Tzeentch (3)
Relic Hunters Flesh Hounds of Khorne (5) ( Will be using Gryph Hounds for these )

40 Blue Horrors and 40 Brimstone Horrors for splitting

Pyrocasts, Iridescents Horrors, and the Rewards on them (and the heralds) are all wasted points. Do not take them

Pink Horrors don't need to be max 20 man squads. Make them units of 16

Burning Chariots aren't great to actually take in list building. they just cost too many points for such a fragile unit. Save them for being conjured

Your Heralds should be Lvl 3 (which is especially bad because of them having spent those points on a Reward which is mostly useless on a T3 independant character

Take Fateweaver

 CrownAxe wrote:
Pyrocasts, Iridescents Horrors, and the Rewards on them (and the heralds) are all wasted points. Do not take them
Drop the fun, chaotic stuff. Thanks but I like the randomness they generate

Pink Horrors don't need to be max 20 man squads. Make them units of 16
I know you only need 16 for the warp charge, but you lose one model, there goes that extra charge. Also the split rule benefits larger units

Burning Chariots aren't great to actually take in list building. they just cost too many points for such a fragile unit. Save them for being conjured
It was either these or a Giant Spined Beast and these come in the start collecting box (I'm not going to dismantle them for Screamers etc) also I like Las-cannon Jetbikes

Your Heralds should be Lvl 3 (which is especially bad because of them having spent those points on a Reward which is mostly useless on a T3 independant character
So instead of taking rewards which are awesome, spend more points on a higher Lvl which is redundant

Take Fateweaver
Ha Ha Nope

Thanks

Pyrocasts, Iridescents Horrors, and the Rewards on them (and the heralds) are all wasted points. Do not take them
Drop the fun, chaotic stuff. Thanks but I like the randomness they generate
It's not randomness when all the results are bad. 1,2,3, and 6 are defense buffs which heralds and champions shouldn't ever be using because their squad should be in the way. By the time wounds are making it to the herald is because they're by themselves and are going to die regardless of those Rewards. Results 0, and 5 are CC buffs which you should never be in assault. Meaning the only good result is the short range gun you get. So when you actually look at it greater rewards only give you a 1/6 chance of something useful on heralds/champions

Pink Horrors don't need to be max 20 man squads. Make them units of 16
I know you only need 16 for the warp charge, but you lose one model, there goes that extra charge. Also the split rule benefits larger units
You make a new unit with split so you you maintain warp charges. And if you want to actually be efficient with pink horrors then you are suppose to run them in 11x man squads, If you ran 5x11 horror squads you'd get a 10th warp charge, 2 more rolls on the change disciple, and save 45 points

Burning Chariots aren't great to actually take in list building. they just cost too many points for such a fragile unit. Save them for being conjured
It was either these or a Giant Spined Beast and these come in the start collecting box (I'm not going to dismantle them for Screamers etc) also I like Las-cannon Jetbikes
I'm not saying don't run use them, i'm saying don't buy them for their points cost. Summon them with Boon of Flame

Your Heralds should be Lvl 3 (which is especially bad because of them having spent those points on a Reward which is mostly useless on a T3 independant character
So instead of taking rewards which are awesome, spend more points on a higher Lvl which is redundant
Yes instead of taking rewards which are terrible on heralds, use those same points to get more rolls on psychic power disciplines and be able to cast another psychic power a turn

Take Fateweaver
Ha Ha Nope
You have the 2nd LoC model so I don't see why not

Dropped the Lesser Reward on the Lord of Change in favour of a Greater Reward on the Pyrocast

You want a lesser reward on the lord of change so that he can take the staff that gives +2 S.

I also think that all those greater rewards and character upgrades are a useless waste of points... All that "random fun" is really pointless on the models you have them on for the most part... You could bring in more heralds or some screamers with the points you've wasted, you could also get useful upgrades like the Paradox...
The Chariots will get destroyed way too quick to use up that many points in your list... Those should be summoned in.

This looks like a Tzeentch Daemon list made by someone who doesn't play Tzeentch Daemons.

No, I've been playing Tzeentch Daemons on and off for a quite a long time now. I do fairly well with list building and playing.

Man if you are just going to ignore peoples advice for your list why did you even post it here?

If you'd read the first line of the OP you'd see this list was built with advice from Dakka members

You mean the other tzeentch thread you made where the only two people who replied were me and mrhappyface?

Because you ignored most of the advice in that thread too

I used the advice that was helpful and that I agreed with.

Well if you are going to ignore nearly all criticism then I will just tell you straight out 40 blue horrors is no where near enough for the amount of pinks you have. You will start losing kills points from turn 3 onward for every pink horror that someone kills in each phase.

Thanks, I wasn't sure how many I'd need as I'm only taking one of the Split boosting Locus. I'll probably get some more once I've painted the one's I've got

 CrownAxe wrote:
Pyrocasts, Iridescents Horrors, and the Rewards on them (and the heralds) are all wasted points. Do not take them

Pink Horrors don't need to be max 20 man squads. Make them units of 16

Burning Chariots aren't great to actually take in list building. they just cost too many points for such a fragile unit. Save them for being conjured

Your Heralds should be Lvl 3 (which is especially bad because of them having spent those points on a Reward which is mostly useless on a T3 independant character

Take Fateweaver

All of this is entirely accurate.

Why would you not take fateweaver? IDK if you know this but you are playing the strongest army in the game - there is no point being nice not including fatey.

Also -why no warpflame host?

 Rolsheen wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Pyrocasts, Iridescents Horrors, and the Rewards on them (and the heralds) are all wasted points. Do not take them
Drop the fun, chaotic stuff. Thanks but I like the randomness they generate

Pink Horrors don't need to be max 20 man squads. Make them units of 16
I know you only need 16 for the warp charge, but you lose one model, there goes that extra charge. Also the split rule benefits larger units

Burning Chariots aren't great to actually take in list building. they just cost too many points for such a fragile unit. Save them for being conjured
It was either these or a Giant Spined Beast and these come in the start collecting box (I'm not going to dismantle them for Screamers etc) also I like Las-cannon Jetbikes

Your Heralds should be Lvl 3 (which is especially bad because of them having spent those points on a Reward which is mostly useless on a T3 independant character
So instead of taking rewards which are awesome, spend more points on a higher Lvl which is redundant

Take Fateweaver
Ha Ha Nope

Thanks

As a Tzeentch player I can tell you all of this is spot on, if you don't want to make your list better that's fine, just don't ask for advice to make it better if ignore the most obvious ways to improve.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Why would you not take fateweaver? IDK if you know this but you are playing the strongest army in the game - there is no point being nice not including fatey.

Also -why no warpflame host?

I think Fateweaver's rules are great, he just doesn't fit the style of play I going for.

Taking a Warpflame host would mean re-writing my entire list for minimum benefit ( +1 str )

So how do you want to play then. Because at the moment you seem to have just put up a list for no reason what so ever. Any advice you seem to dismiss as useless because its not what you want to do.

Why did you bother putting up the list?? You obviously didn´t want advice on it as you can´t seem to take it. Its not going to win any tournaments any time soon, because you think the benefits of the formations that you have available to you are insignificant and have no idea about what you will need for the pink horrors splitting. You could use up all your blue horrors from just 10 pink horrors dying.

Just play how you want, then. Don't post a list and shoot down any input.

Your refusal to grow is your choice. Don't expect everyone else to give you bad advice because it's how you chose to play it.

 Rolsheen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Why would you not take fateweaver? IDK if you know this but you are playing the strongest army in the game - there is no point being nice not including fatey.

Also -why no warpflame host?

I think Fateweaver's rules are great, he just doesn't fit the style of play I going for.

Taking a Warpflame host would mean re-writing my entire list for minimum benefit ( +1 str )

It's not just the +1 str (which is actually huge) Demonic incursion gives you warpstorm control and when you add fateweaver to the mix you can basically assure the warpstorm table is working for you every turn. IMO this is the armies greatest strength. If you don't want to use fatey and want a LOC instead thats fine (hes also a beast) hes just more of a close combat beast - that also makes him much more susceptible to death.

You are already taking tons of horrors and flamers - might as well get free bonuses to go with them. I'm a power gamer though so that's just how I think.

 CrownAxe wrote:
Pyrocasts, Iridescents Horrors, and the Rewards on them (and the heralds) are all wasted points. Do not take them

Pink Horrors don't need to be max 20 man squads. Make them units of 16

Burning Chariots aren't great to actually take in list building. they just cost too many points for such a fragile unit. Save them for being conjured

Your Heralds should be Lvl 3 (which is especially bad because of them having spent those points on a Reward which is mostly useless on a T3 independant character

Take Fateweaver

Every single sentence posted above is the advice I would give. Not only that, this is the first time I have every seen a "Tzeentch player" not already have these implemented in their list.
All the above advise is 100% common knowledge for any standard Tzeentch list.
I can literally not add anything else to these perfectly laid out points.

-

 Galef wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Pyrocasts, Iridescents Horrors, and the Rewards on them (and the heralds) are all wasted points. Do not take them

Pink Horrors don't need to be max 20 man squads. Make them units of 16

Burning Chariots aren't great to actually take in list building. they just cost too many points for such a fragile unit. Save them for being conjured

Your Heralds should be Lvl 3 (which is especially bad because of them having spent those points on a Reward which is mostly useless on a T3 independant character

Take Fateweaver

Every single sentence posted above is the advice I would give. Not only that, this is the first time I have every seen a "Tzeentch player" not already have these implemented in their list.
All the above advise is 100% common knowledge for any standard Tzeentch list.
I can literally not add anything else to these perfectly laid out points.

-

Agreed barring the only exception I haven't seen in this whole thing, greater rewards are totally wasted on heralds. Exalted rewards are totally worth it though, put a paradox herald on disc and another one with grimoire running with your Screamers(maybe exalted flamers for some extra kick if you have the points) is practically an auto include for any Tzeentch army. Grimoire let's you hike your Screamers to 2++ rerollable saves, and paradox is the single best piece of psyker equipment in the game. Guarantees a wc3 on 5 dice(looking at you summoning/incursion) is absolutely amazing.

The best thing about Tzeentch is its ability to stack adds and numbers in your favor, if you choose not to do that it's your own choice. Just don't sit there and argue that your list is in any way optimized when everyone is telling how it's not and your only argument is "I didn't want to do that" and somehow expecting that to change literally everyone's mind. I'm sorry your list isn't as good as you thought, but that's why we post lists, not get ego boosting lies about how your list is the end all of greatness, but actual advice and improvement.

If you think you are above improvement and dislike critiques than just don't bother posting.

I know my list isn't optimised, but I'm bored of the same cookie cutter, power player, tournament list that everyone runs. Everyone gives the same advice but most people are doing it because they've been told the same advice without testing why. I accept advice and critique just as well as anyone else, I just won't act on it blindly. I'll use my 28yrs experience list building and playing to know that bringing something different will win just as many games as bringing a power list.

 Rolsheen wrote:
I know my list isn't optimised, but I'm bored of the same cookie cutter, power player, tournament list that everyone runs. Everyone gives the same advice but most people are doing it because they've been told the same advice without testing why. I accept advice and critique just as well as anyone else, I just won't act on it blindly. I'll use my 28yrs experience list building and playing to know that bringing something different will win just as many games as bringing a power list.

I've never once run a list without doing the math myself, I'm sorry to say your list is pretty bad and it would get rolled by any of the competetive players I know. But again your clearly not here to hear advice but for people to tell you you are awesome for making a list outside the "cookie cutter."

So I give. "what a great list man, I've never seen anything so innovative, the way you ignore all the best parts of your army but still made this special snowflake of a list. You'll do fantastic if you take this to tourneys!"

Hopefully that satisfies you. I'm done trying. Have fun trying to make this work.

 Rolsheen wrote:
I know my list isn't optimised, but I'm bored of the same cookie cutter, power player, tournament list that everyone runs. Everyone gives the same advice but most people are doing it because they've been told the same advice without testing why. I accept advice and critique just as well as anyone else, I just won't act on it blindly. I'll use my 28yrs experience list building and playing to know that bringing something different will win just as many games as bringing a power list.

If you want an oddball list, but fun list...

Simply run an warpflame host incursion list... but, do 9x Exalted Flamers instead of all horrors.

I think you'd be surprised how EFlamers works being D3 str 10 lascannons or torrent str 6 ap3 land baledrakes.

That would be really fun to play, good idea

Hi guys,

Been off the game for a while and the advice here is great. Is there any daemon táctica where I can find all this?

On th either hand, how do you summing burning chariots? I can't seem to find it

The summon burning chariots power is from the expanded tables in the curse of the wulfen supplement.
I believe it is also in the updated digital codex.

Ah ok, got them. Thanks a lot.

May I ask why is I portante that heralds ar elevel 3?

Also, with grimoire, how do you work around the 1-2 failing and giving you -1 to ward saves?

kaintxu wrote:
Ah ok, got them. Thanks a lot.

May I ask why is I portante that heralds ar elevel 3?

Also, with grimoire, how do you work around the 1-2 failing and giving you -1 to ward saves?

You generally want Heralds to be ML3 just to maximize your number of warp charges and to allow you to cast more powers each turn. It's also cheaper to have three ML3 Heralds than four ML2 and one ML1, for example.

With the grimoire you'll want to take Fateweaver. He lets you re-roll a single D6 each turn, which makes the grimoire much more reliable.