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Something that irritates me while playing is the random people coming by and offering tactical advice to me or my opponent during the game.

Don't do that.

It creates tension at the table. The person receiving the advice is placed in a lose/lose position. If they take the advice and it is sound, then there is a chance for their opponent to be irritated by the assistance they received from non-players. Also, the player receiving the advice may have been planning similar tactics in the game and will have their agency questioned due to the interference by non-players.

For the other person at the table it feels like the game shop is ganging up on you. When one or more players hover around your opponent offering advice it can really take the fun out of of a game.

So, in summation: don't take advice if you are playing and don't offer advice if you are not playing.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But how do people quantify someone being a Richard?

Empathy.

In my opinion being a decent person (not a good person just a decent one) requires 2 things. Empathy and a conscious effort to attempt "First, do no harm".

So, first, try to understand how your actions might make someone else feel / put yourself in their shoes and understand how they are feeling. Second, don't make their day / life worse.

If you are not at least trying to be a decent person, you are probably being a Richard.


Translate this to the game space. Much like being a good DM for a D&D game, the point is to create fun for the people at the table. If the lists you build are overwhelmingly powerful you are sucking fun out of the game for your opponent. If you get super pissy because of dice rolls you make the other person uncomfortable. If you are a sore looser or worse winner you ruin the hour + of time that player just spent trying to share some fun with you.

Be a decent person.

 Krinsath wrote:
Going to throw out one that mainly applies in friendly games: Be decisive; plan your moves and shooting while your opponent is taking their turn and be ready to put the plan into action no matter how bad it ends up being. One thing that bothers me when playing is the person who hems and haws about everything. At the end of the day the fate of nations does not rely the choices being made on the table with our toy soldiers. It's one thing to waffle at pivotal moments in the game perhaps, or similarly during the final rounds of a tournament, but playing someone who spends 2-3 minutes per unit obsessing over each and every possible maneuver and shooting possibility for each unit makes the game an exercise in tedium. From skimming some tournament threads it's also a way people game the timed systems to force a better result than they'd get through play which also strikes me as being a bad opponent.

Obviously there are exceptions for people learning the game system and such, but if you know the core rules then even with a new army go with the quick decision. If it's wrong, try to figure out why it was wrong and learn to make better decisions; it is a truism that we learn much more from mistakes than successes anyway. Since you moved much faster in the game perhaps you now have time for another round to try and put those lessons into practice immediately!

I know a few gamers like that, OCD even for Tau players, everything gotta be measured - every possible move. Make half moves with a couple of units that were never going to make the trip to melee anyway and watch the poor sodds lose their minds, re-measuring everything to try and figure out what you're up to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My favorite opponents are the ones who are enjoying themselves. They tend to be the ones who are easy to start a conversation with and have a fun game with.
My stuff is usually on loan to beginners so I'm not overly mortified if someone wants to take a closer look, still, asking first will make me respect you more.
Not overly concerned if you want to be super-strict, as long as you hold yourself to the same standard.
OCD measuring of every variable bores me pretty quick and I'm pretty sure the same is true of most people.
Speaking of measuring, get a good tape measure, people are none too impressed when your tape measure lock doesn't work or it can't hold shape for more than a foot.
Smelling nice is good, spraying your deodorant in a room full of potential asthmatics not so much - do that outside.
Make an effort to build and paint something yourself - I'm more interested in your worst efforts at painting on the tabletop than someone else's gold demon standard professional paint job.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Make an effort to build and paint something yourself - I'm more interested in your worst efforts at painting on the tabletop than someone else's gold demon standard professional paint job.

1. This has nothing to do with being or becoming a better opponent.
2. Bull Gak.
3. Bull Gak.
4. Bull Gak.
5. See above. If someone showed up with a "golden demon standard" army you'd be thrilled to play against it. As would anyone with a functional set of eyeballs. Beautifully painted armies are a joy to behold, and make games so much more immersive than when playing against poorly painted or unpainted armies.

Now, in terms of nurturing new players and hobbyists, sure, your sentiment is nice and proper, but in a hobby built around aesthetics I cannot believe anyone would rather play against a new painter's army versus an army capable of winning painting awards. This just seems like an attack against commission painters/customers who don't share the same passions for the hobby aspect of the miniature gaming as you do.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Make an effort to build and paint something yourself - I'm more interested in your worst efforts at painting on the tabletop than someone else's gold demon standard professional paint job.

1. This has nothing to do with being or becoming a better opponent.
2. Bull Gak.
3. Bull Gak.
4. Bull Gak.
5. See above. If someone showed up with a "golden demon standard" army you'd be thrilled to play against it. As would anyone with a functional set of eyeballs. Beautifully painted armies are a joy to behold, and make games so much more immersive than when playing against poorly painted or unpainted armies.

Now, in terms of nurturing new players and hobbyists, sure, your sentiment is nice and proper, but in a hobby built around aesthetics I cannot believe anyone would rather play against a new painter's army versus an army capable of winning painting awards. This just seems like an attack against commission painters/customers who don't share the same passions for the hobby aspect of the miniature gaming as you do.

Nope. Most of my conversations are about painting and modelling - I'd just be more interested in talking to your painter than talking to you.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Make an effort to build and paint something yourself - I'm more interested in your worst efforts at painting on the tabletop than someone else's gold demon standard professional paint job.

1. This has nothing to do with being or becoming a better opponent.
2. Bull Gak.
3. Bull Gak.
4. Bull Gak.
5. See above. If someone showed up with a "golden demon standard" army you'd be thrilled to play against it. As would anyone with a functional set of eyeballs. Beautifully painted armies are a joy to behold, and make games so much more immersive than when playing against poorly painted or unpainted armies.

Now, in terms of nurturing new players and hobbyists, sure, your sentiment is nice and proper, but in a hobby built around aesthetics I cannot believe anyone would rather play against a new painter's army versus an army capable of winning painting awards. This just seems like an attack against commission painters/customers who don't share the same passions for the hobby aspect of the miniature gaming as you do.

That's a very narrow view of it. Playing against anyone is sometimes a joy, much less being picky about the aesthetic of it. Besides, it usually DOES provide conversational peices when people paint their own stuff, to their own standards, and they present them on the table.

But I agree that a painted army/grey army/who painted what really doesn't have any bearing on being a better opponent in a war game.

 Carnikang wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Make an effort to build and paint something yourself - I'm more interested in your worst efforts at painting on the tabletop than someone else's gold demon standard professional paint job.

1. This has nothing to do with being or becoming a better opponent.
2. Bull Gak.
3. Bull Gak.
4. Bull Gak.
5. See above. If someone showed up with a "golden demon standard" army you'd be thrilled to play against it. As would anyone with a functional set of eyeballs. Beautifully painted armies are a joy to behold, and make games so much more immersive than when playing against poorly painted or unpainted armies.

Now, in terms of nurturing new players and hobbyists, sure, your sentiment is nice and proper, but in a hobby built around aesthetics I cannot believe anyone would rather play against a new painter's army versus an army capable of winning painting awards. This just seems like an attack against commission painters/customers who don't share the same passions for the hobby aspect of the miniature gaming as you do.

That's a very narrow view of it. Playing against anyone is sometimes a joy, much less being picky about the aesthetic of it. Besides, it usually DOES provide conversational peices when people paint their own stuff, to their own standards, and they present them on the table.

But I agree that a painted army/grey army/who painted what really doesn't have any bearing on being a better opponent in a war game.

Don't add things that aren't there.

Dakka Wolf stated he/she would be more interested in playing against someone's worst efforts at painting rather than someone else's commissioned army. That is merely a dig at those who commission paint work.

As for the conversational merits a bespoke army provides, does that mean a "golden demon standard" army would suck all the conversation out of the room? Would neither opponent discuss the army's design or aesthetic choices? Oh, I guess those conversations don't matter if one of the two people didn't apply the paint directly, right? Of course that ignores the possibilities that the person commissioning the army guided the design or had major input in the choice of colors, imagery, theme, etc.

I'd imagine most people would be happy to discuss an army in length whether it was commissioned or not, because we, as players, are ultimately interested in bad ass looking armies and like to geek out over them.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Make an effort to build and paint something yourself - I'm more interested in your worst efforts at painting on the tabletop than someone else's gold demon standard professional paint job.

1. This has nothing to do with being or becoming a better opponent.
2. Bull Gak.
3. Bull Gak.
4. Bull Gak.
5. See above. If someone showed up with a "golden demon standard" army you'd be thrilled to play against it. As would anyone with a functional set of eyeballs. Beautifully painted armies are a joy to behold, and make games so much more immersive than when playing against poorly painted or unpainted armies.

Now, in terms of nurturing new players and hobbyists, sure, your sentiment is nice and proper, but in a hobby built around aesthetics I cannot believe anyone would rather play against a new painter's army versus an army capable of winning painting awards. This just seems like an attack against commission painters/customers who don't share the same passions for the hobby aspect of the miniature gaming as you do.

Is it more pleasant to play against a Golden Demon standard painted army? Yes, yes it is.

Does it get boring to play that same army over and over again because 90% of the population of the world doesn't have the time, talent, or inclination to paint to that level and only one person at your FLGS has done it? Yes, yes it does.

Set your standards high if you wish. I'll play anyone, so long as I can tell what is what, just to have more variety among my opponents.

It's easy, What would Peter Cushing do?

I can't imagine Mr. Cushing acting like anything less than a gentleman during his games.

 Vulcan wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Make an effort to build and paint something yourself - I'm more interested in your worst efforts at painting on the tabletop than someone else's gold demon standard professional paint job.

1. This has nothing to do with being or becoming a better opponent.
2. Bull Gak.
3. Bull Gak.
4. Bull Gak.
5. See above. If someone showed up with a "golden demon standard" army you'd be thrilled to play against it. As would anyone with a functional set of eyeballs. Beautifully painted armies are a joy to behold, and make games so much more immersive than when playing against poorly painted or unpainted armies.

Now, in terms of nurturing new players and hobbyists, sure, your sentiment is nice and proper, but in a hobby built around aesthetics I cannot believe anyone would rather play against a new painter's army versus an army capable of winning painting awards. This just seems like an attack against commission painters/customers who don't share the same passions for the hobby aspect of the miniature gaming as you do.

Is it more pleasant to play against a Golden Demon standard painted army? Yes, yes it is.

Does it get boring to play that same army over and over again because 90% of the population of the world doesn't have the time, talent, or inclination to paint to that level and only one person at your FLGS has done it? Yes, yes it does.

Set your standards high if you wish. I'll play anyone, so long as I can tell what is what, just to have more variety among my opponents.

Yeah, that isn't even what I am arguing.

Maybe not, but it certainly SOUNDED like what you were arguing.

Would you care to clarify what you meant, since you didn't mean what I though you meant?

 Vulcan wrote:
Maybe not, but it certainly SOUNDED like what you were arguing.

Would you care to clarify what you meant, since you didn't mean what I though you meant?

You can't be serious?



feth it. I feel like being a masochist today.


To help you along, Vulcan:

1. Dakka Wolf stated he/she would be more interested in playing against someone's worst efforts at painting rather than someone else's commissioned army.
2. I said that was bull gak and that Dakka Wolf is merely making a dig at those who commission paint work.
3. You come in and claim I am advocating for only playing with/against professionally painted armies.

Ah. My mistake then. I have clearly mis-interpreted your post then. I'm sorry.

(And this, too, is part of the subject at hand. When you're wrong, own up to it and apologize. Yes, everyone makes mistakes; apologizing for them is a mark of sincerity.)

 Vulcan wrote:
Ah. My mistake then. I have clearly mis-interpreted your post then. I'm sorry.

(And this, too, is part of the subject at hand. When you're wrong, own up to it and apologize. Yes, everyone makes mistakes; apologizing for them is a mark of sincerity.)

Appreciate it, and no problem.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Don't add things that aren't there.

Dakka Wolf stated he/she would be more interested in playing against someone's worst efforts at painting rather than someone else's commissioned army. That is merely a dig at those who commission paint work.

As for the conversational merits a bespoke army provides, does that mean a "golden demon standard" army would suck all the conversation out of the room? Would neither opponent discuss the army's design or aesthetic choices? Oh, I guess those conversations don't matter if one of the two people didn't apply the paint directly, right? Of course that ignores the possibilities that the person commissioning the army guided the design or had major input in the choice of colors, imagery, theme, etc.

I'd imagine most people would be happy to discuss an army in length whether it was commissioned or not, because we, as players, are ultimately interested in bad ass looking armies and like to geek out over them.

And I agree. But at the same time, its much easier to talk with someone about an army they painted, as there is usually a sense of pride in it, making the conversation different from talking about one they commissioned. I'm not saying that you can't talk about it.
I find people are usually more apt to talk about something they did when you show interest, rather than talking about commissioned work. But that could just be my area.

What Dakkawolf said is what Dakkawolf said, I merely added my point of view on it. No need to be so curt and cut about it. This is a forum of discussion, namely about becoming a better opponent. If they were making a dig, what of it? That's the opinion they have, end of it.

Actually Dakka Wolf's first statement was "Make an effort to build and paint SOMETHING yourself" not "Always build and paint EVERYTHING yourself, hired artists are the devil!!!" I'm friends with too many painters to take a dig at them or deny them income.
The second statement was born of irritation.

One unit, one vehicle, one character built and painted by you satisfies 'something' and 'making an effort'.

 techsoldaten wrote:


Do write down your list and be willing to share it. Constructing a list from memory scares me.

Do creatively interpret the rules. I really don't mind, even if others would consider it cheating. Part of my enjoyment of the game is keeping everyone else honest, some of the best times I have had as a player have been debating whether or not something is legal.

Do be willing to help other players with the game. I have no problem taking a time out to help a new player and will respect you more for offering some mentorship to others.

Do paint your models. I have walked away from a game against bare armies. It shows you care.

Do let me know if you need help. I don't like the feeling I have some huge knowledge advantage over someone. I want you to have fun too.

A few comments on these:

I completely agree on writing out a list. I have set, written lists for my armies, which makes it easy for you to see whether my math is wrong (it isn't, there've been no less than 3 people at the shop check my math), and I expect that same courtesy.

I agree with "creative interpretations," but I will say, if you game in a shop, as I do, be aware of house rules that may exist there. For instance, in my shop, if unit A is shooting at unit B through a building, they get a cover save whether unit B is actually in the building... the act of shooting through the terrain confers the rule, despite BRB wording that you have to be IN the building to receive the cover save.

On painting... I disagree with this. Having a painted army or not does not make you a good, bad or indifferent opponent. Being a good/bad/indifferent opponent makes you good/bad/indifferent. I realize and respect that not everyone is in the hobby for the same thing.

On helping/mentorship, I agree, especially if you're playing a new player, or a youngster, even if it may cost you the game. If a player is new enough, I take the time to explain what Im doing as I'm doing it AND tell them my plans. But if you do this, actually follow through with them! Don't say "my Berzerkers are moving to charge your tactical marines" and then turn around and charge their terminators or whatever, especially if they moved since you said that plan


For my part, I think part of being/becoming a better opponent is communication. If you are playing me, and building your list in the shop and say, "I'm at 2003 points, but I'm having trouble getting under that" I'm more likely to respond with "it's whatever, lets roll with it" or "there's this thing X that I could put in my list, so our points limit will be 2003, sound good?" Whereas if you're at 2003 points and you just start setting up and I figure it out during the game that you're over limit, I'm gonna be pissed.

That communication includes, if I don't know you, how long you've been playing (weirdly, people at my shop usually lead with this, not their name.... ), what army you're bringing, etc.

- Roll dice in the open
- Allow a good few seconds before you pick them up
- Check with your opponent on any possible cocked dice before accepting the roll
- Rule of cool wins when making decisions
- Understand what your opponent wants from the game
- be clear what you want from the game

To elaborate on the last two, I mean that if you or your opponent are looking for a full on competative game and the other person isn't, you're not going to have the best time.

likewise, if you're there for casual fun and you're up against cheesemeister9000, you're not going to have the game you want.

Main rule: It is just a game of toy soldiers. Perspective.

 D4V1D0 wrote:
- Roll dice in the open
.

Will steal this bit
-Pick up your failed dice and put them to one side , not your successes
-Paint your stuff
-Dont complain if your opponent hasnt painted their stuff


Its interesting to see some of the painted models arguments , i personally paint 99% of the stuff i use (sometimes i just have to use stuff thats still undercoated!) but some people here seem to be almost levying a tax against their opponents time (paint them youself) or £££ (pay someone to paint them for you) Dont forget this is about how to be a better opponent , refusing to play someones unpainted models isnt really achieving that :p

I wonder if the folks with this attitude are in a area where its easy to get a game? Lets be serious who wouldnt want to play the painted armys over the grey hordes?

In a club/store situation be prepared to play the new guy/gal/anthropomorphic alien now and again even if they don't have a great handle on the rules, do a bit of patient teaching

it may not be as fun as a normal game but somebody must have played you in a similar situation so pass on the love

Don't stress about unpainted armies (actually i'd rather unpainted the ebay-propainted), it could well be your opponent just isn't into that bit of the hobby

If you're going to be a rules lawyer make sure you've got the appropriate rules with you..... (I personally prefer a more free and easy style) but its a lot easier to for people to accept they're wrong if they're shown paragraph X on page Y,

an opponent who just says no, no trust me I've been playing since 3rd edition is just a disaster

Definitely do look after and nurture the NooBs!

We were all in their shoes at some point, and I'm sure we all had others lend a helping hand.

Today's NooB is tomorrow's challenging opponent,

I'm sure everyone here has a strong aversion to cheating (by you or your opponent). Excellent.
Your opponent does not necessarily know that and even if they do; that rule might sound too good (possibly misinterpreted). Don't take it personally if someone wants to a look at your list/codex or check that cool special rule you have. Have it in writing to show them.
Also show that you have nothing to hide. Remove misses, ask your opponent to check your measurements, etc.

Unless you are playing a game like Infinity where some information is actually hidden, tell your opponent what he should be worried about. Make sure that your nasty special rule isn't a surprise learned too late.

Which ties into another thing. When telling your opponent, what you have; don't just rattle off stats or give him a list and expect him to read it thoroughly and understand and remember what everything is capable of. You know your list and what is powerful. Tell your opponent what he actually needs to know.

Finally: pay it forward. That advice you go from the vets when you were new, those bits they had lying around and the club/community the put together? Do your part.

Edit: for the approval of Tzeentch: don't moan at every roll that does not go your way. If it's a 50% chance, it's not unlucky either way.
Do sympathise and acknowledge if you get lucky though.

Yup. Definitely spread the love.

I know this sounds 'happy-flappy', but you're not just showing them the game, you're showing them the community.

If the kid is of obviously limited means, and you've got some old sprues kicking about, why not show them how to convert, and let them keep the practice pieces? I know they're not especially cheap, but consider sharing your paints if your store doesn't have a communal set (GW stores no longer do for instance). Taken to extremes, perhaps you've got an old squad of an army-that-never-was. Possibly from years ago. If you're not using them, see if the NooB can make use.

Remember - chances are your prospective new gamer is likely a nerdy kid, who may not have great social skills - to begin with. Make them welcome, help them out. The difference you might be making to that kid's life is immeasurable. Bring them into the fold, do what you can to make them welcome. That's the root of a strong community.