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Martel732 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah I'd be happy with the wraith-lord being able to take a twin linked D cannon getting +1 wound and 5++ save for around 180 points with the +3 to movement. Increase base attacks to 4 also. It's sword should also give it str 10 in cc - not str 9.

The more things that can double out Wraiths, bikes and TWC the better imo. T5 should not be a magic refuge from danger like it currently is.

I agree with all of this, minus the twin-linked D-cannon. I don't know if that's necessary.
I also don't know about the 5++. WG & WKs get a ++ from wrist mounted shield. The Wraithlord doesn't have one (nor does a bit exist for it, unlike a D-cannon you could just strap on its shoulder) and it's model doesn't need to be updated as it looks great.

I think FNP is appropriate for Wraith Constructs as they are not made of flesh, but I agree the standard 5+ is too strong against small arms. How about 6+ FNP? That way it 'step-stones' as they get bigger: WG have no FNP, WL has 6+, WK has 5+.
The ForgeWorld Wraith Seer has a ++ shield because it is special.

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6+ FNP is fine I think. But that's not going to be as good vs AP 3 and better, which was what I was trying to help it against without invalidating poison. I guess the shield accessory is where these things get their invulns from though.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
...Oh sorry, I didn't realize a S10 AP1 Instant Death gun was weak.

This is the new state of affairs in Proposed Rules, apparently. If it isn't Destroyer, rapid-fire S7, AP2, or otherwise capable of outperforming scatterbikes/easily one-rounding Riptides it is 'weak'.

Martel732 wrote:
6+ FNP is fine I think. But that's not going to be as good vs AP 3 and better, which was what I was trying to help it against without invalidating poison. I guess the shield accessory is where these things get their invulns from though.

Once you add the 4th wound on it and give it more movement, the WL actually because pretty decent. 4 wounds with no 5++ work out mathematically the same as 3 wounds with a 5++.
The T8 means anti-tank weapons need to fire at it anyway and a 5++ isn't going to do jack against Grav Cannons. The FNP 6+ is to give it something, but it still needs to conform to the standards set by its model and the models of WG and WK (no shield, no ++)

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
...Oh sorry, I didn't realize a S10 AP1 Instant Death gun was weak.

This is the new state of affairs in Proposed Rules, apparently. If it isn't Destroyer, rapid-fire S7, AP2, or otherwise capable of outperforming scatterbikes/easily one-rounding Riptides it is 'weak'.

You forgot rapid fire Str 6.

Also, since it has Move Through Cover, you can arrange to give it a cover save. Farseers can protect it with Forewarning or Shrouding, and Spiritseers have access to Shrouding too. (Or Invisibility, but invis makes me cry.)

I am not a big fan of 6+ Fnp on a single model because it boigs the game down more so then ever coiming into effect even tough it can be balanced.

Also since when is T5 a hiding from danger toughness, sure there's less that instagibs you but that is about it. The big values are 8 and above since you start to become immune to most basic weapons (especially bolters) fire wich is a big thing.

You said it. Proof from being doubled out is huge.

The single biggest change I'd make is to the D table, so that a 6 becomes 3 wounds/hull points with no saves of any kind allowed instead of the OTT 6+D6 it currently is.

I'd make the Wraithknight 300pts base but with no weapons of anykind, with each weapon taken indavidually. Heavy Wraithcannons can be taken at 50pts each (and don't have to be taken as a pair), Sun Cannon is 20pts (and becomes S7, AP2, Heavy 2, Large Blast), Ghost Sword is 50pts and Scattershield is 20pts. Shoulder weapons stay the same but Scatter Lasers get a 5pt increase.

Wraithlord gets reduced to S7 and T7, gains an extra Wound, Attack and FNP, reduced to 100pts base and starts with double Shurican Cannons on the shoulders. Ghost Sword grants S10.

Wraithguard and Blades become T5, 2W each. Wraithcannons have S10, AP1, Fleshbane and Armourbane whilst D-Scythes have S4, AP2, Fleshbane, Armourbane. Wraithblades also become A2 base. Inreased to 35ppm each, can be taken in squads of 3 minimum and Guard and Blades can mix and match their weapon load outs from the current options.

Heavy D-Scythes, D-Cannon and D-Flail become S6, AP2, Fleshbane, Armourbane.

"Wraithlord gets reduced to S7 and T7, gains an extra Wound, Attack and FNP, reduced to 100pts base and starts with double Shurican Cannons on the shoulders. Ghost Sword grants S10.
"

That's too cheap for that, imo.

Martel732 wrote:
"Wraithlord gets reduced to S7 and T7, gains an extra Wound, Attack and FNP, reduced to 100pts base and starts with double Shurican Cannons on the shoulders. Ghost Sword grants S10.
"

That's too cheap for that, imo.

It's a difficult one to judge, he's going to be very tanky but still only moves 6" a turn and it's damage output is only about equal to that of a War Walker which would cost about half the points. I wouldn't be opposed to it going back to it's current base cost of 120pts.

 Imateria wrote:




Wraithlord gets reduced to S7 and T7, gains an extra Wound, Attack and FNP, reduced to 100pts base and starts with double Shurican Cannons on the shoulders. Ghost Sword grants S10.

Hmm. That's mechanically sound, but I don't like it for a few reasons. Becoming T7 with FNP makes them step on the toes of the talos. I kind of like the way the non-wraithbone MC is susceptible to strength 4 attacks but has FNP to make up for lower toughness while the "eldar dreadnaught" (as it was once known) is immune to small arms fire entirely. Forcing it to have a pair of shooting weapons takes away from some cool conversion/modeling opportunities, though that's a minor nitpick. Finally, I'm not sure this really does much to address the wraith lord's main problems. It would still be inefficient as a ranged fire platform., and t would still be have trouble getting across the board in one piece to bring its melee prowess to bare.

Admittedly, these are all minor pretty minor complaints. I wouldn't shed any tears if something like your changes came to be in the next codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
6+ FNP is fine I think. But that's not going to be as good vs AP 3 and better, which was what I was trying to help it against without invalidating poison. I guess the shield accessory is where these things get their invulns from though.

Once you add the 4th wound on it and give it more movement, the WL actually because pretty decent. 4 wounds with no 5++ work out mathematically the same as 3 wounds with a 5++.
The T8 means anti-tank weapons need to fire at it anyway and a 5++ isn't going to do jack against Grav Cannons. The FNP 6+ is to give it something, but it still needs to conform to the standards set by its model and the models of WG and WK (no shield, no ++)

I very much like the idea of giving it 4 wounds and a minor speed boost. Adding 3" to movement would feel appropriate for eldar, pair well with a craftworld warhost's rules, and allow it to both seek cover and get into combat more easily. I"m not a big fan of the FNP part. As stated above, it feels like it's stepping on the talos's toes (so to speak), and 6+ FNP falls in the "nice to have, but basically worthless" category. I wouldn't hate having it, but it's not really effective enough to be considered much of a "fix" either. :(

One thing I've thought of is letting them ride in Wave Serpents, taking up the entire transport capacity. I mean if Dreadnauts can ride on Storm Ravens, why not?

 Imateria wrote:
One thing I've thought of is letting them ride in Wave Serpents, taking up the entire transport capacity. I mean if Dreadnauts can ride on Storm Ravens, why not?

I don't know about that. Dreads don't actually ride "in" the Storm Raven, they are magnetize underneath it. So unless we want Wraithlords surfing on Serpents Teenwolf style, I don't think that would work.
At this point, though, I'd be happy if WLs just got 4 wounds and +3" to move, run, and charge (#Wraith Stride). Make both those changes for free and it's instantly playable without being OP.
Everything else (like the sword only granting S9 and not having the option for a D-cannon) is just a nit-pick.

-

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
...Oh sorry, I didn't realize a S10 AP1 Instant Death gun was weak.

This is the new state of affairs in Proposed Rules, apparently. If it isn't Destroyer, rapid-fire S7, AP2, or otherwise capable of outperforming scatterbikes/easily one-rounding Riptides it is 'weak'.

A riptide is totally capable of 1 rounding a wraithgard unit. How will str 10 ap1 shots do against a riptide? Well. Even with a 5++ and 5+ FNP about 40% of wounds will be ignored. So after after rolls to hit we are looking at 1-2 wounds...on a model that has 5. On a unit that moves 6 inches per turn with a 12 inch weapon that is not acceptable. Ofc we are talking about a situation that will never happen outside of a WWP archon whcih costs 95 points min and the riptide can still intercept half the squad to death. All of these disadvatnages to average 2ish wounds on a target with str 10 ap1? Thats 'what I mean by weak...If we talking about killing landraiders melta guns will do it better as str 8 melta is better than str10 vs AV 13 and 14 by a large margin. The only advantage would be ID t5 units - which isn't exactly an important roll in this game. Increase the cost of the weapon if it is too much (its not - WG don't show up in tournament lists for a reason).

Pretty sure that Riptide cares about the Instant Death clause you willfully ignored but what do I know?

Str 10 AP 1 instant death is an interesting statline because it kinda makes land raiders a little better.

Wait. Are you saying flat out Instant Death? Not just on a 'to wound' roll of 6?

If that is the case, than I'd propose the following:
Distort: "A weapon with this rule has the Armour Bane, Flesh Bane and Instant Death special rules"

Wratihcannon: 12" Str10 Ap1 Assault 1
Heavy WC is the same but 36" (or we ditch the HWC and the WK get D-cannons instead)
D-cannon: 24" str10 Ap1 Heavy 1 small Blast
D-scythe: Template str4 Ap2
Heavy D-scythe: Template str4 Ap2 Torrent

Thoughts?
Personally, I think Instant Death on a 2+ is a bit much, but only on a 6 is weak sauce too. How about Instant Death on a 'to wound' roll of 5+?

-

Yes. Flat out instant death, all the time. feth your MCs.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Pretty sure that Riptide cares about the Instant Death clause you willfully ignored but what do I know?

I did miss The instant death part. With ID they would actually be better vs a lot of things. I could probably live with s10 ap1 instant death if eternal warrior changes to the way gargantuan creatures treat instant death.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
Wait. Are you saying flat out Instant Death? Not just on a 'to wound' roll of 6?

If that is the case, than I'd propose the following:
Distort: "A weapon with this rule has the Armour Bane, Flesh Bane and Instant Death special rules"

Wratihcannon: 12" Str10 Ap1 Assault 1
Heavy WC is the same but 36" (or we ditch the HWC and the WK get D-cannons instead)
D-cannon: 24" str10 Ap1 Heavy 1 small Blast
D-scythe: Template str4 Ap2
Heavy D-scythe: Template str4 Ap2 Torrent

Thoughts?
Personally, I think Instant Death on a 2+ is a bit much, but only on a 6 is weak sauce too. How about Instant Death on a 'to wound' roll of 5+?

-

Make the instant death an initiative test.

 Galef wrote:
Wait. Are you saying flat out Instant Death? Not just on a 'to wound' roll of 6?

If that is the case, than I'd propose the following:
Distort: "A weapon with this rule has the Armour Bane, Flesh Bane and Instant Death special rules"

Wratihcannon: 12" Str10 Ap1 Assault 1
Heavy WC is the same but 36" (or we ditch the HWC and the WK get D-cannons instead)
D-cannon: 24" str10 Ap1 Heavy 1 small Blast
D-scythe: Template str4 Ap2
Heavy D-scythe: Template str4 Ap2 Torrent

Thoughts?
Personally, I think Instant Death on a 2+ is a bit much, but only on a 6 is weak sauce too. How about Instant Death on a 'to wound' roll of 5+?

-

I think you are forgetting that Riptides can nova for 3++. With a ROF 1 instant death gun, it could still take you all game to kill it. Leave it on a 2+. No initiative test. Just die.

 Xenomancers wrote:
...With ID they would actually be better vs a lot of things...

SINCE WHEN WAS THE PROBLEM WITH DISTORTION WEAPONS THAT THEY WEREN'T GOOD ENOUGH?

Fair enough, Martel

How do you feel about the Scythes being Str4 Ap2? With Armour Bane and Flesh Bane, I feel it is kind of arbitrary and only really prevents them from hurting AV12+ reliably.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
...With ID they would actually be better vs a lot of things...

SINCE WHEN WAS THE PROBLEM WITH DISTORTION WEAPONS THAT THEY WEREN'T GOOD ENOUGH?

The point is that a str10 AP1 gun with Instant Death is flat out better vs MCs that D.
One of the major points in this discussion is to tone down Distort weapons, not make them better.

But overall, making them Str10 Ap1 instant death makes them better vs MCs, but worse vs Vehicles (since D does D3 HPs). Considering the power level between MCs and Vehicles, this can only be a good thing for the game.

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 Galef wrote:
Fair enough.

How do you feel about the Scythes being Str4 Ap2? With Armour Bane and Flesh Bane, I feel it is kind of arbitrary and only really prevents them from hurting AV12+ reliably.

To my mind the point about making them S4/Ap2 Armourbane/Fleshbane is to make the choice between scythes/wraithcannons more relevant (because the wraithcannon actually works against vehicles, and the scythe is vastly, vastly better against non-vehicle targets).

The added benefit is to take the extra rule they had to have that treated them as S4 for purposes of Instant Death, and drop it and just make the gun S4.

But now we have to deal with the fact that D-scythes are vastly better. Instead of wounding/penning on 3+ doing D3 wounds/HPs, they now wound on 2+ causing Instant death and can still cause Pens (though not as easily)
While this makes the Wraithcannon the obvious choice for anti-tank, I can't see anyone ever not taking the Scythes unless you could mix them within units.
But a unit with 3 Scythes and 2 cannons would suddenly become the new standard must take for all Eldar

-

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Pretty sure that Riptide cares about the Instant Death clause you willfully ignored but what do I know?

I did miss The instant death part. With ID they would actually be better vs a lot of things. I could probably live with s10 ap1 instant death if eternal warrior changes to the way gargantuan creatures treat instant death.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
Wait. Are you saying flat out Instant Death? Not just on a 'to wound' roll of 6?

If that is the case, than I'd propose the following:
Distort: "A weapon with this rule has the Armour Bane, Flesh Bane and Instant Death special rules"

Wratihcannon: 12" Str10 Ap1 Assault 1
Heavy WC is the same but 36" (or we ditch the HWC and the WK get D-cannons instead)
D-cannon: 24" str10 Ap1 Heavy 1 small Blast
D-scythe: Template str4 Ap2
Heavy D-scythe: Template str4 Ap2 Torrent

Thoughts?
Personally, I think Instant Death on a 2+ is a bit much, but only on a 6 is weak sauce too. How about Instant Death on a 'to wound' roll of 5+?

-

Make the instant death an initiative test.

But why do we need to change EW for you to be comfortable with it? Wraithguard were already fine in the previous codex.

 Galef wrote:
But now we have to deal with the fact that D-scythes are vastly better. Instead of wounding/penning on 3+ doing D3 wounds/HPs, they now wound on 2+ causing Instant death and can still cause Pens (though not as easily)
While this makes the Wraithcannon the obvious choice for anti-tank, I can't see anyone ever not taking the Scythes unless you could mix them within units.
But a unit with 3 Scythes and 2 cannons would suddenly become the new standard must take for all Eldar

-

I'm not the one saying "put ID as stock on all distortion weapons". I think that'd be an incredibly bad idea.

I'm also worried that this discussion has been derailed into "how can we make this gun kill Riptides reliably?", ignoring the fact that the Riptide is an overpowered unit and any gun that will kill Riptides reliably is going to be much more overpowered against the entire rest of the game. You know, the part not composed of Riptides.

I meant heavy wraith cannon primarily. D-scythes should be much weaker.

So Wraithcannons Str10 Ap1 Armourbane, Fleshbane ID,
Scythes only srt4 Ap2 Armourbane, Fleshbane, but without ID?

That would work for me. At that point, you could swap Cannons for Scythe at no additional cost.

 Galef wrote:
So Wraithcannons Str10 Ap1 Armourbane, Fleshbane ID,
Scythes only srt4 Ap2 Armourbane, Fleshbane, but without ID?

That would work for me. At that point, you could swap Cannons for Scythe at no additional cost.

I'd rather see a general overhaul to ID/EW before just up and attaching ID to a weapon, but absent said overhaul I'd call that a reasonable stopgap.