Author |
Message |
 |
|
 |
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/10 18:25:27
Subject: Wraith guard, WraithKnights and Distortion as a whole
|
 |
Omnipotent Necron Overlord
|
Galef wrote:So Wraithcannons Str10 Ap1 Armourbane, Fleshbane ID,
Scythes only srt4 Ap2 Armourbane, Fleshbane, but without ID?
That would work for me. At that point, you could swap Cannons for Scythe at no additional cost.
I'd be good with that. Automatically Appended Next Post: AnomanderRake wrote:
SINCE WHEN WAS THE PROBLEM WITH DISTORTION WEAPONS THAT THEY WEREN'T GOOD ENOUGH?
IMO D is already a little weak. So is str10.
I'm simply talking about in comparison to the insane defense units can get. Invis and 2++ save make D weapons look like bolters.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/10 18:31:19
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/10 19:54:00
Subject: Wraith guard, WraithKnights and Distortion as a whole
|
 |
Locked in the Tower of Amareo
|
This is why in the other thread I gave particularly strong weapons a penalty on invuln saves. Like the hammerhead rail gun was -3 or -4. Lascannons were -1.
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/10 19:54:20
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/10 19:58:34
Subject: Wraith guard, WraithKnights and Distortion as a whole
|
 |
Powerful Phoenix Lord
|
Martel732 wrote:This is why in the other thread I gave particularly strong weapons a penalty on invuln saves. Like the hammerhead rail gun was -3 or -4. Lascannons were -1.
I feel like that defeats the purpose of invul saves, but I agree that stronger low ROF weapons need a boost in this edition. Some way to blanket them doing D3 wounds or HPs would be nice
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/10 20:07:04
Subject: Wraith guard, WraithKnights and Distortion as a whole
|
 |
Auspicious Daemonic Herald
|
Xenomancers wrote: Galef wrote:So Wraithcannons Str10 Ap1 Armourbane, Fleshbane ID,
Scythes only srt4 Ap2 Armourbane, Fleshbane, but without ID?
That would work for me. At that point, you could swap Cannons for Scythe at no additional cost.
I'd be good with that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AnomanderRake wrote:
SINCE WHEN WAS THE PROBLEM WITH DISTORTION WEAPONS THAT THEY WEREN'T GOOD ENOUGH?
IMO D is already a little weak. So is str10.
I'm simply talking about in comparison to the insane defense units can get. Invis and 2++ save make D weapons look like bolters.
This is a problem with the game power creep on defensive buffs. The game should never have gotten to 2++ in the first place, let alone rerollable 2++
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/10 21:08:27
Subject: Wraith guard, WraithKnights and Distortion as a whole
|
 |
Locked in the Tower of Amareo
|
Galef wrote:Martel732 wrote:This is why in the other thread I gave particularly strong weapons a penalty on invuln saves. Like the hammerhead rail gun was -3 or -4. Lascannons were -1.
I feel like that defeats the purpose of invul saves, but I agree that stronger low ROF weapons need a boost in this edition. Some way to blanket them doing D3 wounds or HPs would be nice
It doesn't defeat the purpose. Plasma, for example, would have a 0 modifier. Your personal little iron halo should NOT be effective vs a massive rail gun round. I had the hammerhead rail gun also inflicting 4 wounds/hull points.
|
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/03/10 21:09:58
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/10 22:06:03
Subject: Wraith guard, WraithKnights and Distortion as a whole
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
I had been playing around with the idea that maybe Lascannons and similar weapons inflict a penalty on invuln and Melta Weapons inflict penalty on FNP rolls or something like that. Off topic but now you know.
I don't even think the guns need Flesh bane (as S10 is gonna wound on a 2+). However, I don't see why someone here wants to change the EW mechanic just because there are units resistant to a S10 AP1 Instant Death Weapon.
|
CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/10 22:35:28
Subject: Wraith guard, WraithKnights and Distortion as a whole
|
 |
Courageous Beastmaster
|
Agreeing with anomanderRake here: everything should be nerfed.
ALso you're discussing absurdities comparing Ridiculously OP stuf with simply OP stuff. Everything discussed here should be taken down a notch. A big buff tanky unit should not die to one single quick round of shooting from any unit or from every unit depending on your perspective.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/10 22:37:20
Subject: Wraith guard, WraithKnights and Distortion as a whole
|
 |
Locked in the Tower of Amareo
|
Nerfing everything was quite unpopular in 3rd, and it doesn't drive sales well. Go do the math.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/14 19:28:56
Subject: Wraith guard, WraithKnights and Distortion as a whole
|
 |
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
|
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:I had been playing around with the idea that maybe Lascannons and similar weapons inflict a penalty on invuln and Melta Weapons inflict penalty on FNP rolls or something like that. Off topic but now you know.
I don't even think the guns need Flesh bane (as S10 is gonna wound on a 2+). However, I don't see why someone here wants to change the EW mechanic just because there are units resistant to a S10 AP1 Instant Death Weapon.
...Is there a point at which your proposed power-creep will produce weapons that ignore Invuls and FNP entirely and you'll start proposing a new 'super-Invulnerable' save on top of the 'armour' and 'Inuvlnerable' saves on our models' profiles that now exist only to make lasguns worse?
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/14 19:33:39
Subject: Wraith guard, WraithKnights and Distortion as a whole
|
 |
Locked in the Tower of Amareo
|
Well, I won't. Hammerhead rail gun should equal death for a lot of things.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/14 20:27:09
Subject: Wraith guard, WraithKnights and Distortion as a whole
|
 |
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
|
Martel732 wrote:Well, I won't. Hammerhead rail gun should equal death for a lot of things.
So if you're writing yourself into such a corner that Poisoned (2+) on a Troops unit is no longer worthy of comment and you need to start considering an Invul-penetrating value on your weapons...could it be time to make things less killy/less tough instead of proposing constant across-the-board buffs?
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/14 20:30:11
Subject: Wraith guard, WraithKnights and Distortion as a whole
|
 |
Locked in the Tower of Amareo
|
AnomanderRake wrote:Martel732 wrote:Well, I won't. Hammerhead rail gun should equal death for a lot of things.
So if you're writing yourself into such a corner that Poisoned (2+) on a Troops unit is no longer worthy of comment and you need to start considering an Invul-penetrating value on your weapons...could it be time to make things less killy/less tough instead of proposing constant across-the-board buffs?
No. Because the Hammerhead can only kill ONE thing VERY dead. I'd make weapons that scoop marines or even 4+ units off the table like chattel more expensive or more difficult to get access to. As it stands now, low ROF weapons need to be MUCH more killy and other types of weapons need to have more liabilities.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/14 20:31:10
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/14 21:29:38
Subject: Wraith guard, WraithKnights and Distortion as a whole
|
 |
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
|
Martel732 wrote: AnomanderRake wrote:Martel732 wrote:Well, I won't. Hammerhead rail gun should equal death for a lot of things.
So if you're writing yourself into such a corner that Poisoned (2+) on a Troops unit is no longer worthy of comment and you need to start considering an Invul-penetrating value on your weapons...could it be time to make things less killy/less tough instead of proposing constant across-the-board buffs?
No. Because the Hammerhead can only kill ONE thing VERY dead. I'd make weapons that scoop marines or even 4+ units off the table like chattel more expensive or more difficult to get access to. As it stands now, low ROF weapons need to be MUCH more killy and other types of weapons need to have more liabilities.
Finally. I'm getting somewhere.
Tell me about making the weapons that scoop units off the table like chattel becoming harder to get access to. Tell me about the liabilities that should be given to other types of weapons. Tell me about attempts to balance the game, not about efforts to enforce power creep.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/14 22:55:52
Subject: Wraith guard, WraithKnights and Distortion as a whole
|
 |
Locked in the Tower of Amareo
|
This was always part of my vision. However a lot of my ideas are in context of a d10 sytem to increase granularity of units and reduce bloody rerolls.
Weapon systems that have a high damage output vs single hard targets or multiple elite infantry have to be limited and/or expensive or else you get 7th. But this requires a ground up reimagining.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/14 23:01:08
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 00:40:17
Subject: Wraith guard, WraithKnights and Distortion as a whole
|
 |
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
|
Martel732 wrote:This was always part of my vision. However a lot of my ideas are in context of a d10 sytem to increase granularity of units and reduce bloody rerolls.
Weapon systems that have a high damage output vs single hard targets or multiple elite infantry have to be limited and/or expensive or else you get 7th. But this requires a ground up reimagining.
So you need a ground-up reimagining of the system and d10s instead of working with what's already in front of you?
Consider the concept of the Formation system. The weakness of the CAD has always been how easy it is to decide you're going to take a minimum cheap-as-possible selection of core units (ten naked Fire Warriors and an Ethereal run to 140pts) so you can max out the big flashy selections (the rest of a 1,250pt list could be four Riptides), but suddenly we've got this meta-detachment concept that could let us say "you must take a Farseer, three Guardian Defender squads, a War Walker, a Vyper, and a support platform before you can take any Wraithknights". And people insist on focusing on the free-stuff problem and arguing to get rid of formations.
I say keep formations, nay, embrace formations. Open up the existing tables a bit to allow for more flexible army builds, but if you're going to make a game where a grot is allowed to coexist with a Warlord you've got to have some sort of mechanism for controlling how much stuff of what size you can get.
As for stat granularity I don't think a d10 system is necessary, if the current system were handled more carefully. We've got stat range that isn't being covered (1 model = 1 Wound is one of the few things Age of Sigmar got rid of that I really do agree with), saves that don't mean much because GW's been too generous with AP/Ignores Cover. As for rerolls GW's been more generous with them than they should, but they're a significant speed-of-play improvement over modifiers. The player doesn't have to add or subtract anything in his head, all he has to do is say "Right, these ones failed, I'm going to roll them again now."
So you could switch everything over to d10s, and it might even work, but I don't think it'd inherently work any better or worse than d6s do now.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 13:34:02
Subject: Wraith guard, WraithKnights and Distortion as a whole
|
 |
Locked in the Tower of Amareo
|
They work better because they create much needed mathematical space in the game. Go visit the terminator thread. No one can agree on anything because there is literally no space left in the game.
No space between a storm bolter and a heavy bolter.
No space between terminator armor and centurion armor/broadside armor
No space between regular powerfists and terminator powerfists.
Another big part of me doesn't want to work with GW's system because it's so terrible.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 18:36:32
Subject: Wraith guard, WraithKnights and Distortion as a whole
|
 |
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
|
Based on the assumption that anything below S6 is irrelevant. There's a lot of mathematical space left in Strength/Toughness below 6 that the Terminator thread seems to have forgotten about.
...No space between terminator armor and centurion armor/broadside armor...
Based on undervaluing 2+ armour. Also based on a bizarre (to me) refusal to consider any change to Terminators' default armaments. And almost certainly on the new Broadside model becoming much bigger than the old one without much of a change to its rules.
I agree that the Terminator/Centurion/XV8-tier/Wraithguard design space is a little saturated, but to me the fact that Forge World has put thirteen different Terminator-armoured units on the table in 30k without running out of space to do interesting and viable things with a T4/2+ armour unit says there are solutions to the problem that don't involve moving to a d10.
...No space between regular powerfists and terminator powerfists...
I'm not certain why this is an issue. A powerfist on a Strength 4 model is going to wound anything short of a superheavy on a 2+, would the moral superiority of having Terminator powerfists get a Strength higher than 8 really have much of an effect on the game?
To my mind the increased melee punch of the unit is represented by the saturation of powerfist attacks and access to the chainfist, not by whether one powerfist in a vacuum is better than another.
...Another big part of me doesn't want to work with GW's system because it's so terrible...
I've spent a lot of time hacking on the bones of the system building things out of Mordheim, and the more I do that the more I'm convinced the foundations are solid. The system is functional. It's been wildly abused by throwing open the doors to big squadrons of heavy artillery, taking disadvantages away from a lot of effects, and tacking on a poorly-thought-out psychic system, but the foundations are solid.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 19:11:13
Subject: Wraith guard, WraithKnights and Distortion as a whole
|
 |
Locked in the Tower of Amareo
|
"Based on the assumption that anything below S6 is irrelevant."
This is largely true in most games, unfortunately. S6 is THE critical breaking spot for weapon strengths in 7th ed. S6 can kill Imperial knights. S5 can do nothing. Which one am I ALWAYS going to choose?
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/15 19:11:33
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 19:19:14
Subject: Wraith guard, WraithKnights and Distortion as a whole
|
 |
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
|
Martel732 wrote:"Based on the assumption that anything below S6 is irrelevant."
This is largely true in most games, unfortunately. S6 is THE critical breaking spot for weapon strengths in 7th ed. S6 can kill Imperial knights. S5 can do nothing. Which one am I ALWAYS going to choose?
This is Proposed Rules.
I could tell you I've made a T10 unit with a rerollable 2+ Invulnerable save, a rerollable 2+ FNP, an Assault 30 weapon that fires D-strength/AP1 Large Blasts at BS10 and 120" range, and comes in units of 10-30 at 2pts/model in Troops.
I choose not to because I'm trying to design balanced units, not to design units that allow me to win games.
I regard the fact that there exist guns that are good against the vast majority of possible targets as a problem to be addressed rather than an example to be emulated.
You have the power to see GW's screwups and avoid them, not plunge gleefully into the same pit.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 19:26:31
Subject: Wraith guard, WraithKnights and Distortion as a whole
|
 |
Locked in the Tower of Amareo
|
That's true, but to make Str 6 NOT the sweet spot, we have to change a LOT. And those changes have cascading effects. The problems are actually much more subtle than one would think. Flipping through the Eldar codex, the scatterlaser doesn't SEEM like a problem.
But then you look at all the other codexes and then the BRB. Then see how people use them in practice. AV 12 is pretty common. But you can't know that without looking at all other codices. And because of GW's system, AV12 is a steep point where Str 5 does nothing ever and Str 6 can kill AV 12 given enough shots. This makes incidental Str 6 not a threat, but MASS str 6 is a huge problem for medium/light vehicles. Str 6 also wounds T4 on a 2+, which is the most common Toughness for elite infantry.
Their screwups are both subtle and super far-reaching, and so fixing them is probably not actually possible with a reasonable amount of text. It's actually easier to adjust point values, imo. Which is where the whole scatterbikes being 37 pts as opposed to 27 pts thing came from. Because they are indeed worth every bit of 37 pts.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/15 19:27:26
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 19:35:51
Subject: Wraith guard, WraithKnights and Distortion as a whole
|
 |
Powerful Phoenix Lord
|
I'd be quite happy (as an Eldar player) if Scatter lasers were Str5 and Windriders had a 4+ armour & Skilled Rider (which should be standard for all Eldar jetbikes) The unit would still be good and worth 27ppm, without being "OMG can kill every unit in the game" It's enough of a nerf to be noticeable and silence all but the most egregious haters, while not so devastating that Windriders get shelved -
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/15 19:37:07
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 19:36:39
Subject: Wraith guard, WraithKnights and Distortion as a whole
|
 |
Locked in the Tower of Amareo
|
Galef wrote:I'd be quite happy (as an Eldar player) if Scatter lasers were Str5 and Windriders had a 4+ armour & Skilled Rider (which should be standard for all Eldar jetbikes)
The unit would still be good and worth 27ppm, without being "OMG can kill every unit in the game"
-
See? That's not THAT big of a numerical shift, and yet, it makes an ENORMOUS difference. I want a D10 system so you don't see such radical shifts from a single point of anything. I'd almost argue that 27 ppm might be a bit high for that. That's a huge swing.
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/15 19:37:47
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 19:44:05
Subject: Wraith guard, WraithKnights and Distortion as a whole
|
 |
Powerful Phoenix Lord
|
Martel732 wrote: I'd almost argue that 27 ppm might be a bit high for that. That's a huge swing.
Well, I didn't make a change to the points because I am trading 3+ armour for 4+ AND Skilled rider (which adds +1 to Jink saves). So a vanilla 17pt Windrider is still as durable as a Marine if they Jink (more so because it's a 3+ cover save). So a 27ppm Scatterbike only has a Str5 gun and 4+ armour, but it can choose to Jink with a 3+ -
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/15 19:44:44
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 19:45:19
Subject: Wraith guard, WraithKnights and Distortion as a whole
|
 |
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus
|
Wraithknight is easy, give it a 100 point increase.
|
3000
4000 |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 19:55:33
Subject: Wraith guard, WraithKnights and Distortion as a whole
|
 |
Powerful Phoenix Lord
|
As long as that includes the 2 Shuricannons as the basic build, sure. And can be swapped for Scatter laser or Star cannon for 5pts each I am very insistent on this because the Wraithlord comes with Shuricats or Flamers as standard, so the WK should also come standard with 2 mini-guns (mini compared to the other choices it can take) Maybe keep the WK at 300pts with JUST the 2 Shuricannons and may add one of the following: 2 Heavy Wraithcannons ....100pts Ghostglave and Scattershield ...100pts Suncannon and Scattershield ....50pts (cuz let's be honest, this is by far the worst choice) May trade either Shuricannon for Scatter laser or Starcannon for 5pts each -
|
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/03/15 19:57:45
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 19:57:05
Subject: Wraith guard, WraithKnights and Distortion as a whole
|
 |
Locked in the Tower of Amareo
|
Galef wrote:Martel732 wrote:
I'd almost argue that 27 ppm might be a bit high for that. That's a huge swing.
Well, I didn't make a change to the points because I am trading 3+ armour for 4+ AND Skilled rider (which adds +1 to Jink saves). So a vanilla 17pt Windrider is still as durable as a Marine if they Jink (more so because it's a 3+ cover save). So a 27ppm Scatterbike only has a Str5 gun and 4+ armour, but it can choose to Jink with a 3+
-
I"m being impartial here and saying that that might not even be a 27 point model. Jinking tanks your firepower badly and so can't be counted for much on a unit that wants to shoot back. Jinking is fantastic on transports, though. Or assault units. Automatically Appended Next Post:
But the rest of it isn't. Automatically Appended Next Post: Galef wrote:
As long as that includes the 2 Shuricannons as the basic build, sure. And can be swapped for Scatter laser or Star cannon for 5pts each
I am very insistent on this because the Wraithlord comes with Shuricats or Flamers as standard, so the WK should also come standard with 2 mini-guns (mini compared to the other choices it can take)
Maybe keep the WK at 300pts with JUST the 2 Shuricannons and may add one of the following:
2 Heavy Wraithcannons ....100pts
Ghostglave and Scattershield ...100pts
Suncannon and Scattershield ....50pts (cuz let's be honest, this is by far the worst choice)
May trade either Shuricannon for Scatter laser or Starcannon for 5pts each
-
That's probably fine. The WK is just getting a ton of perks from GMC status and not paying for them currently. Giving it some guns standard is a non-issue for me. In fact, it's guns are really a secondary issue for me period. Even the D cannons. D cannons help keep high cost models in check. It's all the GMC perks it gets for basically nothing. Like the poison thing. Really, Gdubs?
|
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/03/15 19:59:17
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 20:17:30
Subject: Wraith guard, WraithKnights and Distortion as a whole
|
 |
Powerful Phoenix Lord
|
Yeah, I agree on the poison thing. At most it should be -1 to the poison roll needed, not a flat 6.
But Stomp needs to be addressed too. It shouldn't be able to flat out remove models on a 6. Maybe just D6 "hits" at the model's base Str, AP1?
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 20:30:45
Subject: Wraith guard, WraithKnights and Distortion as a whole
|
 |
Locked in the Tower of Amareo
|
Galef wrote:Yeah, I agree on the poison thing. At most it should be -1 to the poison roll needed, not a flat 6.
But Stomp needs to be addressed too. It shouldn't be able to flat out remove models on a 6. Maybe just D6 "hits" at the model's base Str, AP1?
OH, yeah that too. Nice Guillman bro. Too bad my 295 pt WK just removed him from play.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 20:44:52
Subject: Wraith guard, WraithKnights and Distortion as a whole
|
 |
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus
|
Galef wrote:
As long as that includes the 2 Shuricannons as the basic build, sure. And can be swapped for Scatter laser or Star cannon for 5pts each
I am very insistent on this because the Wraithlord comes with Shuricats or Flamers as standard, so the WK should also come standard with 2 mini-guns (mini compared to the other choices it can take)
Maybe keep the WK at 300pts with JUST the 2 Shuricannons and may add one of the following:
2 Heavy Wraithcannons ....100pts
Ghostglave and Scattershield ...100pts
Suncannon and Scattershield ....50pts (cuz let's be honest, this is by far the worst choice)
May trade either Shuricannon for Scatter laser or Starcannon for 5pts each
-
Could go for that
|
3000
4000 |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 20:51:36
Subject: Wraith guard, WraithKnights and Distortion as a whole
|
 |
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
|
Martel732 wrote:That's true, but to make Str 6 NOT the sweet spot, we have to change a LOT. And those changes have cascading effects. The problems are actually much more subtle than one would think. Flipping through the Eldar codex, the scatterlaser doesn't SEEM like a problem.
But then you look at all the other codexes and then the BRB. Then see how people use them in practice. AV 12 is pretty common. But you can't know that without looking at all other codices. And because of GW's system, AV12 is a steep point where Str 5 does nothing ever and Str 6 can kill AV 12 given enough shots. This makes incidental Str 6 not a threat, but MASS str 6 is a huge problem for medium/light vehicles. Str 6 also wounds T4 on a 2+, which is the most common Toughness for elite infantry.
Their screwups are both subtle and super far-reaching, and so fixing them is probably not actually possible with a reasonable amount of text. It's actually easier to adjust point values, imo. Which is where the whole scatterbikes being 37 pts as opposed to 27 pts thing came from. Because they are indeed worth every bit of 37 pts.
Back up a step.
You're trying to change the game around the scatterbike to make it not the one-stop answer to everything.
Instead of changing the scatterbike to make it not the one-stop answer to everything.
Why are you so attached to the existence of a Troops model with a four-shot S6 weapon that you'd rather move to a d10 system THAN NERF THE SCATTERBIKE?
|
|
|
 |
 |
|