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 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Lord Flasheart wrote:

d) more clearly defines the factions in the 40K 'verse - along the lines of Good Guys, Neutral Guys, Evil Guys and Universal Baddies ('Nids)

You lost me here.

This is anathema to the grittyness of the 40k universe (which is one of its most appealing qualities). Start dividing people into 'good' and 'evil' and you get the same boring tired fantasy trope of 'men vs orks' or 'men vs daemons' or any other of the countless facsimilies without any depth beyond 'these guys are evil cos they're evil m'kay...'.

At some point you have to acknowledge that the widespread collapse of safety and living standards and a total lack of prosperity might mean that someone MIGHT be a little evil...

True, although i find it tends to make for rather 2-dimensional unrealistic characters.

'They do evil things because they're evil people who just like doing evil things' is a bit boring.

'They do evil things because they believe that the evil they're doing is both right, justified and necessary' makes for a much more nuanced character.

Plus, it's more realistic. At the risk of invoking Godwin's law, Hitler (one of the most evil men of our time, although not quite as bad as Stalin...) did what he did because he genuinely believed it was for the benefit of the German people who had lived through terrible hardship after WW1.

Now, i get that you get psychopaths who do horrible things just for the fun of it, but to be honest in the history of people doing horrible horrible things to each other they're in a massive minority. The vast majority of atrocities are carried out by normal people who think they're doing the right thing.

Moral relativism tends to go out the window when your story literally incorporates daemons from beyond time and space that personify treachery, blood, disease and indulgence or mindless drone monsters that want to devour all life. Kairos isn't gonna go date a nice girl and tuck children in at night to humanize himself and the Tyranids aren't going to develop literature to explain a philosophy for their civilization.

Unless you're just referring to CSM rather than Chaos as a whole, in which case carry on. We can have that kind of nuance among IoM, Eldar, CSM and Tau stuff. Chaos, Orks and Tyranids are a little past that by inherent design though.

Oh yeah I was absolutely meaning CSM rather than Chaos itself Chaos I'm completely on board with being so lovecraftian in their motivations that they don't even register on our moral compass.

Oddly, of all the named daemons, I definitely think Kairos is the most plausible for the whole 'dating Nancy from down the street' scenario. Sounds like a Just As Planned scheme

Personally, I like Greyestine. I would say Celefax, but yeah it sounds like some sort of fax machine

Very nice review Goonbandito, thanks for making these!

This thing about closing the library... The reason given is stupid, and reeks of an attempt to sound grim, dramatic and tough without thinking things through. BUT, it could be justified given that the Consul of Macragge turned out to be a Slaanesh cultist. Is that given as a reason at all? That they need to purge the government and make sure the library won't be misused before opening it? Because that might make sense, because Tzeentch.

Also, I vote for Greystine

Do we know what the library actually contains? It's been shut to visitors but that doesn't mean it's not being used.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Lord Flasheart wrote:

d) more clearly defines the factions in the 40K 'verse - along the lines of Good Guys, Neutral Guys, Evil Guys and Universal Baddies ('Nids)

You lost me here.

This is anathema to the grittyness of the 40k universe (which is one of its most appealing qualities). Start dividing people into 'good' and 'evil' and you get the same boring tired fantasy trope of 'men vs orks' or 'men vs daemons' or any other of the countless facsimilies without any depth beyond 'these guys are evil cos they're evil m'kay...'.

Nah, that's an AoS reference. I didn't say I thought that was a good thing, but it wouldn't surprise me if GW take this as an opportunity to put various races into more easily marketed boxes.

Ah gotcha, I wouldn't be overly surprised either. They are a business after all, and the whole grittyness will be kept alive by the people who like it (which I tend to view as a bit of a 'graduation' from thinking about things in clear-cut black and white).

So I suppose they might, but it probably won't change a great deal

I'm imagining Cypher's reaction to Guilliman betraying him going something like this:

Cypher: "You're chucking me in a cell?"
Guilliman: "Yes."
Cypher: "... Do you know who I am?"
Guilliman: "Yes."
Cypher: "Well, alright then. If you insist..."
Guilliman: "Is there a breeze in here? There appears to be a draft between my ears."

Thanks for the synopsis!

More like:

Cypher: 'Do you know who I am?'
Guilliman: 'You're some upstart Dark Angel that these people don't like, but other than that no I don't know who you are'
Cypher: 'Ah, that explains it then. Do carry on...'

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Hitler (one of the most evil men of our time, although not quite as bad as Stalin...) did what he did because he genuinely believed it was for the benefit of the German people who had lived through terrible hardship after WW1.

Stalin had a higher kill count, but I'd say Hitler's intentions made him more evil.

General Mao outclassed both those two in terms of kills...

What does this have to do with Reboot Goatman again?

Very true on the Mao front.

Doesn't count. Mao had more people to begin with.

He also did it over a long period of time. If you want to talk about murderous dictators, you should think about percentages. Pol Pot killed 25% of the population in 4 years.

 Exergy wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Hitler (one of the most evil men of our time, although not quite as bad as Stalin...) did what he did because he genuinely believed it was for the benefit of the German people who had lived through terrible hardship after WW1.

Stalin had a higher kill count, but I'd say Hitler's intentions made him more evil.

General Mao outclassed both those two in terms of kills...

What does this have to do with Reboot Goatman again?

Very true on the Mao front.

Doesn't count. Mao had more people to begin with.

He also did it over a long period of time. If you want to talk about murderous dictators, you should think about percentages. Pol Pot killed 25% of the population in 4 years.

Amateurs! All of them! President Francisco Solano López of Paraguay managed to lose over 60% of Paraguay's entire population during the six years of the War of the Triple Alliance!

 commander dante wrote:

 Jambles wrote:
This is an amazing write-up, I just finished your version of the trilogy and thoroughly enjoyed them. Feels good to be caught up with all the new stuff that's happening, so crazy...

Mudrat wrote:

I genuinely think they're pairing off Celestine and Greyfax at this point. Which I support 100%, the only question is what portmanteau to use...Celefax? GreyStine? Celerinya? Katastine? so many choices!

Out of those, I vote for Katastine.

I'm for Celefax.

Celefax sounds like a Device from the 90s

Im for GreyStine (which sounds like Shampoo)

To be honest, it doesnt really go together

Ask your doctor if Celefax is right for you.

Been in a car accident? Call Greystine and associates now...

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
More like:

Cypher: 'Do you know who I am?'
Guilliman: 'You're some upstart Dark Angel that these people don't like, but other than that no I don't know who you are'
Cypher: 'Ah, that explains it then. Do carry on...'

Or even:

Cypher: 'Do you know who I am?'
Guilliman: 'You're carrying around my brother's sword as a big FU to me and my lost brothers, so it doesn't really matter if I know who you are.'
Cypher: 'Ah, right. I'll just go over here then?'

Thanks for the all the summaries, GoonBandito. It's always a joy to read.

I think this whole Gathering Storm thing is a bad idea, but I'm somewhat intrigued to see where it'll lead us, since we're stuck with it anyway.

Not enough to buy it though, so please do keep up the great work.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Hitler (one of the most evil men of our time, although not quite as bad as Stalin...) did what he did because he genuinely believed it was for the benefit of the German people who had lived through terrible hardship after WW1.

Stalin had a higher kill count, but I'd say Hitler's intentions made him more evil.

General Mao outclassed both those two in terms of kills...

What does this have to do with Reboot Goatman again?

Very true on the Mao front.

Doesn't count. Mao had more people to begin with.

He also did it over a long period of time. If you want to talk about murderous dictators, you should think about percentages. Pol Pot killed 25% of the population in 4 years.

Amateurs! All of them! President Francisco Solano López of Paraguay managed to lose over 60% of Paraguay's entire population during the six years of the War of the Triple Alliance!

Ah so it's atrocity density as a percentage over time that we're using as a yardstick?

Also, 60%! Good Lord there have been some horrible people out there.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:


Amateurs! All of them! President Francisco Solano López of Paraguay managed to lose over 60% of Paraguay's entire population during the six years of the War of the Triple Alliance!

Ah so it's atrocity density as a percentage over time that we're using as a yardstick?

Also, 60%! Good Lord there have been some horrible people out there.

I think so - and Paraguay did pick a fight with Uruguay, Argentina, and the Empire of Brazil at once and then refused to surrender. I don't know if that affects the high score.

Lord Flasheart wrote:


Or even:

Cypher: 'Do you know who I am?'
Guilliman: 'You're carrying around my brother's sword as a big FU to me and my lost brothers, so it doesn't really matter if I know who you are.'
Cypher: 'Ah, right. I'll just go over here then?'

Wait, wait, did we find out what Cypher's sword is?

Spoil me!

Yes, Guilliman looks at it and recognizes it as the Lion's sword and thinks to himself that he will not let that blade near his father which is implied as the reason he has Cypher arrested, not because Cypher is a wanted man. I'm not sure if that points to the fact the Lion's blade has some strange power or not that could threaten the Emperor, but sure sounds like it

Does it say what he does with the sword then? I'm guessing they don't just chuck Cypher in a cell with it

no it doesn't. the exact wordings regarding the sword however are ".. Gulliman had expected this moment (Cypher not being given access to the emperor), and had planned for it accordingly. The Hooded Dark Angel had held up his end of the bargin, granting Gulliman and his men freedom on the blackstone fortress. Yet the Primarch was not fool eneugh to trust blindly. He may not have reckongized Cypher, but he knew the blade on the Dark Angels back. The sight of it made him shudder with dread. He would not permit such a thing into his father's presence. Stepping aside Gulliman commanded the Custodian Guards to apprehend Cypher.."

so it wasn't the IoM deciding to arrest cypher and Gulliman letting it happen. Cypher was arrested ON GULLIMAN'S ORDERS. presumably Cypher snags the sword when he escapes.


One thing I noted BTW that no one else has said yet is that Gulliman has ressurected the 500 worlds of Ultramar. declaring the releasing of them post heresy "null and void" which means, as of right now the Ultramarines are lead by a primarch, and posess a feifdom of something like 500 worlds.

BrianDavion wrote:
no it doesn't. the exact wordings regarding the sword however are ".. Gulliman had expected this moment (Cypher not being given access to the emperor), and had planned for it accordingly. The Hooded Dark Angel had held up his end of the bargin, granting Gulliman and his men freedom on the blackstone fortress. Yet the Primarch was not fool eneugh to trust blindly. He may not have reckongized Cypher, but he knew the blade on the Dark Angels back. The sight of it made him shudder with dread. He would not permit such a thing into his father's presence. Stepping aside Gulliman commanded the Custodian Guards to apprehend Cypher.."

so it wasn't the IoM deciding to arrest cypher and Gulliman letting it happen. Cypher was arrested ON GULLIMAN'S ORDERS. presumably Cypher snags the sword when he escapes.


One thing I noted BTW that no one else has said yet is that Gulliman has ressurected the 500 worlds of Ultramar. declaring the releasing of them post heresy "null and void" which means, as of right now the Ultramarines are lead by a primarch, and posess a feifdom of something like 500 worlds.

>inb4 Guilliman declares the Codex Astartes void, gathering up 60-70% of the chapters, creating Imperium Tertium.

 ChazSexington wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
no it doesn't. the exact wordings regarding the sword however are ".. Gulliman had expected this moment (Cypher not being given access to the emperor), and had planned for it accordingly. The Hooded Dark Angel had held up his end of the bargin, granting Gulliman and his men freedom on the blackstone fortress. Yet the Primarch was not fool eneugh to trust blindly. He may not have reckongized Cypher, but he knew the blade on the Dark Angels back. The sight of it made him shudder with dread. He would not permit such a thing into his father's presence. Stepping aside Gulliman commanded the Custodian Guards to apprehend Cypher.."

so it wasn't the IoM deciding to arrest cypher and Gulliman letting it happen. Cypher was arrested ON GULLIMAN'S ORDERS. presumably Cypher snags the sword when he escapes.


One thing I noted BTW that no one else has said yet is that Gulliman has ressurected the 500 worlds of Ultramar. declaring the releasing of them post heresy "null and void" which means, as of right now the Ultramarines are lead by a primarch, and posess a feifdom of something like 500 worlds.

>inb4 Guilliman declares the Codex Astartes void, gathering up 60-70% of the chapters, creating Imperium Tertium.

a number of astartes chapters have already pleged fealty to him. mostly progenator chapters, but it sounds like all the first founding chapters sent at the very least a TOKEN force to see whats up and fell into service with him when they confirmed the "miracle" of his rebirth (and yes the Imperium considers it a miracle. which technicly it is, just not of the God emperor)

noted groups that have sent detachments to him, the book describes as followed.

Many Ultramarine Progenator chapters (2nd founding) came to Macragge to see that he had returned and swore allegiance to him, these included (but where not limited to) the Novamarines, Sons of Orar, Genisis Chapter (I belive the mortifactors are also mentioned later on as some of them accompanying Gulliman to Terra)

they then mention others...

"Some like the Raven Guard and Dark Angels sent small delegations to detirmine the truth of this miracle." (the dark angels are later mentioned as helping in the battles for Macragge so presumably they sent eneugh troops to be relavant, so I'm gonna guess a demi-company to a battle company in size)

"Others came in hope and celebration, bands of Space Wolves, White Scars, black templars and others hastening to his side"

"Others too came to Ultramar upon the insistance of their seers, astropaths, soothsayers and Lords. Battleships of the Imperial Navy, regal Barons of Imperial aligned Knight worlds, fleets of warships from the adeptus mechanis and their titan legions..."

the Picture it paints is a pretty clear one, that Gulliman is attracting support from pretty much the entire IoM.

You know who aint mentioned there. The BA. Theyre all going home. Yes even the naughty ones.
Theyre trying to pull off a defence of Macragge without the asset's Robit had, and cant scream to the warp that the nids are coming.
It wouldnt surprise me if Guilliman, Only turns up to Baal, Saves the day when theyre fighting around Sangys coffin. He wakes up and sucks the Ultras dry.

stewe128 wrote:
So if this ends in a cliffhanger, I'm betting money next month is a another book "Death of the Emperor" or something like that where Cypher gasses the Emperor madness breaks loose and Abaddon brings in his boy Morty to kill everyone then BOOM 8th comes out and a wave of new updates and models for EVERYTHING.

Things are going as I predicted.... Possibly?

I feel like I'm missing something? Why the hell did Guilliman throw Cypher into prison because he had the Lion's sword? Did Guilliman have a grudge against the Lion?

If there are no real answers for this then I think GW did a terrible job writing this book.

aamendez wrote:
I feel like I'm missing something? Why the hell did Guilliman throw Cypher into prison because he had the Lion's sword? Did Guilliman have a grudge against the Lion?

If there are no real answers for this then I think GW did a terrible job writing this book.

Random duder rocks up into a Chaos stronghold where you are imprisoned, Offers to let you out... But only if you take him to the most powerful human in the galaxy, while carry a sword that is potentially one of the very few weapons that can actually kill the Emperor.

Yeah I wouldn't help but be a tad suspect