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From the FAQ answer, are the warp charges equal to the charges that the psykers would generate separately? The answer to that is the answer for determining how many Warp Charges are generated by a psyker IC joined to another unit.

 doctortom wrote:
From the FAQ answer, are the warp charges equal to the charges that the psykers would generate separately? The answer to that is the answer for determining how many Warp Charges are generated by a psyker IC joined to another unit.

No, the answer given in the FAQ is an answer to one specific example. It tells us nothing about how to determine how many Warp Charges are generated by any other combination of psykers.

 insaniak wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
From the FAQ answer, are the warp charges equal to the charges that the psykers would generate separately? The answer to that is the answer for determining how many Warp Charges are generated by a psyker IC joined to another unit.

No, the answer given in the FAQ is an answer to one specific example. It tells us nothing about how to determine how many Warp Charges are generated by any other combination of psykers.

What other combinations of Psykers are you thinking that does not apply to?

Fragile wrote:

What other combinations of Psykers are you thinking that does not apply to?

Any combination that isn't a Level 2 Librarian joined to a Level 1 Grey Knights Strike Squad...?

 insaniak wrote:

Fragile wrote:

What other combinations of Psykers are you thinking that does not apply to?

Any combination that isn't a Level 2 Librarian joined to a Level 1 Grey Knights Strike Squad...?

That seems an overly legalistic interpretation of that FAQ. It did address ICs inside another unit do still count for their own ML despite the poorly written Psychic rules.

Except it didn't. All it did is show that in that specific example, the psyker unit for some reason generates 3 warp charges.

While we can assume from that answer that we're supposed to just add the two MLs together, since GW didn't bother to show their working, it's only an assumption.

What they should have said was that despite what the psychic phase rules appear to say, IC psykers joined to other units still count as a separate psyker unit in their own right. That would have answered the warp charges question and at the same time resolved pretty much all of the other issues with joined psykers in the current rules... The only outlier would have been the 'multiple powers from the same unit' issue, which was answered elsewhere.

Instead, they gave a half-baked 'answer' that shows that they clearly don't understand why people were actually asking that question.

 insaniak wrote:
Except it didn't. All it did is show that in that specific example, the psyker unit for some reason generates 3 warp charges.

While we can assume from that answer that we're supposed to just add the two MLs together, since GW didn't bother to show their working, it's only an assumption.

Can you come up with some other way of arriving at 3 that isn't a ridiculous answer?

Define 'ridiculous answer' within the context of the current psychic rules? GW quite clearly don't understand their own rules here, so any answer is suspect unless they actually explain their reasoning.


To be clear, I completely agree that we're supposed to just add them together. Or, more precisely, that in that scenario the Librarian generates his 2 and the squad generates their 1 because we're supposed to be still treating them as separate psyker units.

My point was simply that the rules don't actually say that, and we should never be left in a situation where we are relying on assumption to determine how a rule works. Particularly not when it would have been so easily resolved if they had taken the time to determine what the actual problem was that people were asking about.

 insaniak wrote:
To be clear, I completely agree that we're supposed to just add them together. Or, more precisely, that in that scenario the Librarian generates his 2 and the squad generates their 1 because we're supposed to be still treating them as separate psyker units.

But (and I think you acknowledge this in your posts) GW also seems to be saying we're not supposed to be treating them as separate psyker units, since you may only attempt a specific power once, regardless of how many psyker units are joined together.

The contradictions lend credence to the confusion.

There's no contradiction there. The restriction on casting the same power twice is specifically on the unit, not the psyker unit.

If we're assuming, as the FAQ seems to, that a unit can consist of multiple psyker units, then you get to add up the Mastery levels of each of them for determining warp charges, and they each cast independently... But multiple psykers in the unit can't cast the same power.

Well, it is a contradiction because they are indeed treated as separate units while at the same time not being treated as separate units.

Fragile wrote:
Well, it is a contradiction because they are indeed treated as separate units while at the same time not being treated as separate units.

You are missing what is causing them to be treated as separate units in your case.

There is nothing. "for all rules purposes" is obviously not the case in many situations.

Fragile wrote:
There is nothing. "for all rules purposes" is obviously not the case in many situations.

Then why make the assertion that, "it is a contradiction because they are indeed treated as separate units" when there is nothing to support causing them to be treated as separate units?

 Charistoph wrote:

Fragile wrote:
There is nothing. "for all rules purposes" is obviously not the case in many situations.

Then why make the assertion that, "it is a contradiction because they are indeed treated as separate units" when there is nothing to support causing them to be treated as separate units?

He is making a statement that is perfectly descriptive of the state of the rules as they are.

The IC Special Rules rule is one example of a rule that requires the IC to be handled separably from the unit the IC joins.

 Charistoph wrote:

Fragile wrote:
There is nothing. "for all rules purposes" is obviously not the case in many situations.

Then why make the assertion that, "it is a contradiction because they are indeed treated as separate units" when there is nothing to support causing them to be treated as separate units?

I have, A librarian attached to a Tac Squad cannot cast powers by RAW. Clearly the only way to do it is to treat them as separate units for certain situations, which tend to occur often.

Fragile wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Fragile wrote:
There is nothing. "for all rules purposes" is obviously not the case in many situations.

Then why make the assertion that, "it is a contradiction because they are indeed treated as separate units" when there is nothing to support causing them to be treated as separate units?

I have, A librarian attached to a Tac Squad cannot cast powers by RAW. Clearly the only way to do it is to treat them as separate units for certain situations, which tend to occur often.

You skipped over the rules that set that up. It's just a baseless assertion without them..

If an IC is it's own unit when joined to another, then a tactical objective that requires 3 units to be in the opponents board half/deployment zone would be achieved if one unit with 2 attached ICs were in the designated zone. I've never seen it played this way personally.

Poly Ranger wrote:
If an IC is it's own unit when joined to another, then a tactical objective that requires 3 units to be in the opponents board half/deployment zone would be achieved if one unit with 2 attached ICs were in the designated zone. I've never seen it played this way personally.

Another good point against recognizing the IC's unit when joined to another.

In order to effectively treat them as their own unit, we need instructions to treat them as their own unit, or some crazy stuff happens as we can do it on a whim. The owning player can use it when receiving a Charge or Scoring, while the Attacking Player can use it to single them out while Shooting. It's a lose-lose situation.

 Charistoph wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Fragile wrote:
There is nothing. "for all rules purposes" is obviously not the case in many situations.

Then why make the assertion that, "it is a contradiction because they are indeed treated as separate units" when there is nothing to support causing them to be treated as separate units?

I have, A librarian attached to a Tac Squad cannot cast powers by RAW. Clearly the only way to do it is to treat them as separate units for certain situations, which tend to occur often.

You skipped over the rules that set that up. It's just a baseless assertion without them..

You keep saying this. Perhaps you can explain how a Tac squad casts a Psychic power?

To manifest a psychic power, you will first need to select one of your Psyker units

Note you select a "unit" not a model.

For the purposes of all rules, the term ‘Psyker’ and ‘Psyker unit’ refers to any unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules.

The Librarian "he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters" so he is not his own unit at this point.

Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit

So the Psyker rule does not transfer to the unit since the rule does not explicitly say it transfers.

A model with this special rule is a Psyker. This rule is typically presented with a Mastery Level, shown in brackets – if no Mastery Level is shown then that model has a Mastery Level of 1. Rules for generating and manifesting psychic powers can be found in the Psychic phase section.

But clearly you can select the Librarian out of the middle of that unit and use its powers, hence it is still a unit while within another unit. And there are several examples in the rules where this happens unlike your black and white view that clearly fails in RAW aspects all the way around.

Fragile wrote:

But clearly you can select the Librarian out of the middle of that unit and use its powers, hence it is still a unit while within another unit.

It's not, though. You can select the Librarian out of the middle of the unit because in that situation 'psyker unit and 'unit' aren't supposed to be the same thing.

He's a part of the unit, but he's supposed to still be a separate psyker unit.

Fragile wrote:
You keep saying this. Perhaps you can explain how a Tac squad casts a Psychic power?

You just made assertions without backing them up in the rules. That is why I kept saying it. You have now tried do so, but you also missed a step.

Fragile wrote:

For the purposes of all rules, the term ‘Psyker’ and ‘Psyker unit’ refers to any unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules.

The Librarian "he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters" so he is not his own unit at this point.

This is the key paragraph which establishes it. The Psyker rule is in the unit when a Librarian is in the Tac Squad.

Fragile wrote:

Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit

So the Psyker rule does not transfer to the unit since the rule does not explicitly say it transfers.

Stubborn never says it confers, either, actually, but that's besides the point and way off tangent. The Psyker unit definition you quoted earlier above would satisfy that for the Tac Squad as much as it would for the Librarian standing alone (Psyker special rule states the model has it, not the unit).

Fragile wrote:
But clearly you can select the Librarian out of the middle of that unit and use its powers, hence it is still a unit while within another unit. And there are several examples in the rules where this happens unlike your black and white view that clearly fails in RAW aspects all the way around.

But you haven't quoted where we can single out the Librarian as a unit in order for them to cast Psyker powers. You are making assumptions based on what you want to do, not where it actually states to do so.

 Charistoph wrote:

Fragile wrote:

Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit

So the Psyker rule does not transfer to the unit since the rule does not explicitly say it transfers.

Stubborn never says it confers, either, actually,

Incorrect. Stubborn specifically confers the ability of Stubborn from a model with the Stubborn special rule on its datasheet to the unit that contains the model.

All of this is very relevant. The IC Special Rules rule is one example of a rule that requires the IC to be handled as NOT part of the unit for rules purposes.

 insaniak wrote:

Fragile wrote:

But clearly you can select the Librarian out of the middle of that unit and use its powers, hence it is still a unit while within another unit.

It's not, though. You can select the Librarian out of the middle of the unit because in that situation 'psyker unit and 'unit' aren't supposed to be the same thing.

He's a part of the unit, but he's supposed to still be a separate psyker unit.

You just made a grand assertion of RAI, which I agree with. But RAW you are completely incorrect. Psyker unit is clearly defined. Transferring rules is clearly defined. Neither of which apply here.

The assertion of RAI was yours - the assumption that the psyker in the squad is supposed to be able to still cast powers. My response was in that context.

This is a pretty silly argument. If Ahriman (ML4) joins a unit of Rubric Marines with an Aspiring Sorcerer(ML1) then that unit generates 5 WC. This is so clear I am not sure why there is an argument. Who even think that ICs and the unit they are attached to seem to interact in any weird way. In my 3 years this has never been an issue. The only time it becomes weird, which was cleared up, is formation rules. And even the GK FAQ muddied that up, but it is written clear regardless.

 redleger wrote:
This is a pretty silly argument. If Ahriman (ML4) joins a unit of Rubric Marines with an Aspiring Sorcerer(ML1) then that unit generates 5 WC. This is so clear I am not sure why there is an argument. Who even think that ICs and the unit they are attached to seem to interact in any weird way. In my 3 years this has never been an issue. The only time it becomes weird, which was cleared up, is formation rules. And even the GK FAQ muddied that up, but it is written clear regardless.

That's not the only time it becomes weird. Join a Librarian to a unit with the Brotherhood of Psykers rule. According to the BoP special rule, "this unit"t would manifest range and line of sight from any model with the rule, and "if this unit suffers Perils of the Warp, or is hit by a an attack that specifically targets psykers, the hits are Randomly Allocated amonst models with the Bortherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rule." A Librarian joined to that unit is part of the unit, so going by the RAW of that statement, any powers cast by the Librarian would have range and line of sight measured from any model in the unit, and if he rolls Perils it will be one of the other members of the unit with BoP instead of him suffering the results of the Perils. Ablative Perils wounds for the Librarian by RAW!

 redleger wrote:
This is a pretty silly argument. If Ahriman (ML4) joins a unit of Rubric Marines with an Aspiring Sorcerer(ML1) then that unit generates 5 WC. This is so clear I am not sure why there is an argument. .

To show why there is argument: explain why the unit in your example generates 5 Warp Charges.

Please support your answer with rules.

Now if im reading this thread correctly, your asking if the IC is still considered their own unit when joined to a squad.

The short answer is yes with exceptions

The long answer is...... complicated


First off, independant characters that join other units count as part of that squad for rules purposes, but this comes with it's own exceptions.

Mostly it is to do with kill points and abilities that involve killing a unit. In this regards an IC counts as a separate unit, even if he has joined a squad (Much like how transports are their own unit)

this is even clarified in the "purge the alien" mission which even states that IC's count as a separate unit, and in the Unit part of the BRB.


This is also why deathstars give out soo many victory points if the scenario is counting those.

Second, about psykers

This one is a tricky thing to comprehend so it can have it's own subsectors of clarification because of how it's worded, but the gist is this.

an IC psyker that has joined a squad that is BoP/BoS still counts his own warp charges to the total warp charge cause of being a separate "unit" cause of the rules, but you could also argue about the IC rules in this instance aswell.

Since the example shown in the generate warp charge states all the units separately, even if they were in the same unit they would count separately for the ruling cause example is giving context of how it should work.

(Also as clarification of this, independant characters are not conferred the special rules of the squad, and vice versa unless the rule in question specifies (like stubborn))

Now, in terms of generating powers, the rule underneath is very specific. no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per psychic phase.


I hope this clears that up


(also.... this is from FAQ)

Q: How many dice does a Mastery Level 2 Librarian joined
with a Mastery Level 1 Grey Knights Strike Squad generate for
their Warp Charge pool?
A: Three.

mchammadad wrote:

an IC psyker that has joined a squad that is BoP/BoS still counts his own warp charges to the total warp charge cause of being a separate "unit" cause of the rules,

This is an assumption. Nowhere in the rules are we told that IC psykers should be treated as a separate unit for psychic phase resolution. The FAQ just gives us a number, without telling us how to arrive at that answer.

So we don't know if the answer is '3' because the IC is treated as a separate psyker unit, if the IC and squad count as a single psyker unit but we add their Mastery Levels together for determining Warp Charges, or if the actual mechanism at play is something else entirely. There are rules required for resolving the situation that simply don't exist.