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 koooaei wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

Here's a modest proposal for that Ghazzystar: Add in a bunch of Meks. A trukkload of them. Challenge with one of the Meks, instead of using Ghazkull.

Ghaz supplement - you got to accept challenges with your warlord. Cause of Balance.

Also, you can't join anything else to the ghazstar - unless you're taking codex Ghaz without eternal waaagh and 2++. Which is pretty pointless cause dls megaboss is better.

I exalt a lot of koooaei's posts and never feel like it really matters

Like he said, Ghazzystar is ok until Girlyman rolls a 6.. but why fight him when Orkz should just feed him trash anyway?

 Rismonite wrote:
but why fight him when Orkz should just feed him trash anyway?

Exactly. Our best chance of killing him is waiting till he gets tired of exploding a 35 pt trukk every turn and goes back to stazis sleep. He's a slow mc with a huge base that can't join squads or ride transports. His only method of quick transportation is via earth magic that'd eat a ton of warpcharges. He's great at dealing with ork deathstars. If you choose to feed them to him. Just don't.

 koooaei wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

Here's a modest proposal for that Ghazzystar: Add in a bunch of Meks. A trukkload of them. Challenge with one of the Meks, instead of using Ghazkull.

Ghaz supplement - you got to accept challenges with your warlord. Cause of Balance.

Also, you can't join anything else to the ghazstar - unless you're taking codex Ghaz without eternal waaagh and 2++. Which is pretty pointless cause dls megaboss is better.

Sorry, I wasn't referring to the formation in the Ghazkull supplement. I simply meant a deathstary squad that has Ghazkull in it, like 5-8 Bully Boyz plus Ghazkull and a Warboss with DLS - Ghazzy doesn't get a 2++ invuln every turn, but he still gets it for two full rounds of combat, which is all you're going to need to finish off Guilliman anyways.

I just turn the Lynx slightly, to point at him.

BS4 Twin-linked, so basically 3 D shots per turn, unless he can cross 48" in 2 turns statistically he gonna get hit with 6+ wounds no saves hit.
And for the 1/9 chance of twin-link missing i can counteract with all non-6 D hits.

Or throw Asurmen at him, same 3+ save and small chance of removing him. Maybe even dire avenger exarch.

Spread the table and ignore him.

 koooaei wrote:

 Rismonite wrote:
but why fight him when Orkz should just feed him trash anyway?

Exactly. Our best chance of killing him is waiting till he gets tired of exploding a 35 pt trukk every turn and goes back to stazis sleep. He's a slow mc with a huge base that can't join squads or ride transports. His only method of quick transportation is via earth magic that'd eat a ton of warpcharges. He's great at dealing with ork deathstars. If you choose to feed them to him. Just don't.

I'm not sure why people call him slow. He's got move through cover and fleet, and adds 1" to run and charges.

I mean, he's not an eldar jetbike, but he's not exactly a meganob, either. He's easily faster than wulven, who aren't considered a 'slow' unit. He's going to be across the table and destroying stuff by, at most, turn 3. It's not like you can just ignore him and hope he goes away.

Maybe if you have an all-mechanized army, you can be mobile enough to avoid him, but he's also going to have an army to support him by popping vehicles and letting him clean up after.

Waaaghpower wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

Spoiler:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:
Throw 90 points of Pink Horrors at it and tie it up for 3 turns. Do it twice and RG is a non-event.

I am afraid those Horrors will vanish back to the Warp due to Daemonic instability test in the 1st turn. Better way is still shoot StrD at him, all mass up Str6+ and drown his company who are mere T4 3+ armor. This Primarch, unlike Magnus is not a unkillable killing machine in his own right But is a great support Character to be placed in the center of an army. Once all those Ultramarines are dead, the Primarch's awesome buff ability is useless and he himself is weak in dishing out damage, due to how slow he is.

And the pinks split into blues which surround him and prevent him from moving until dealt with. Then the blues into Brimstones. It is easy enough to surround an enemy with them. The only reason they won't split is if you roll boxcars.

I think the "split" rule excluded those unit being removed due to Daemonic instability test.

I know the wording around it was originally unclear, but they FAQ'd it in Wrath of Mangus so that only box cars prevents splitting.

FAQ wrote:
Q: It seems that the only thing that stops them from Splitting is if
they roll a Daemonic Instability test result that causes the entire
unit to be taken off of the table. Is this correct?
A: Yes.

Edit: fixed formatting

Well, yes, but this doesn't mean that Horrors who are removed due to Daemonic instability get to Split. If the horror is removed due to instability, that horror does not get to Split.
The FAQ is simply pointing out that if the unit is removed due to Instability, then the horrors who died due to taking wounds earlier in the combat phase still won't get to Split. So if Guilliman can kill 5 or 6 Horrors that will split, then cause an instability test that kills 6 or 7 more, he only has to deal with a fraction as many horrors as he would have otherwise.

Just wondering where in the rule it says that horrors removed due to instability don't get to split regardless of the instability result? At the start of the split rule it says "If a friendly unit of Pink Horrors suffers any casualties, the slain Horrors will split and create Blue Horrors at the end of the phase". There are no restrictions on splitting if the casualties are caused by daemonic instability or other means.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
I play CSM. Going to screw with his leadership with Fear and wound him over time with Soul Blaze.

I think this is the best plan so far.

Not sure if this was already mentioned, but RG ignores all negative leadership modifiers regardless of source.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Rismonite wrote:
but why fight him when Orkz should just feed him trash anyway?

Exactly. Our best chance of killing him is waiting till he gets tired of exploding a 35 pt trukk every turn and goes back to stazis sleep. He's a slow mc with a huge base that can't join squads or ride transports. His only method of quick transportation is via earth magic that'd eat a ton of warpcharges. He's great at dealing with ork deathstars. If you choose to feed them to him. Just don't.

I'm not sure why people call him slow. He's got move through cover and fleet, and adds 1" to run and charges.

I mean, he's not an eldar jetbike, but he's not exactly a meganob, either. He's easily faster than wulven, who aren't considered a 'slow' unit. He's going to be across the table and destroying stuff by, at most, turn 3. It's not like you can just ignore him and hope he goes away.

Maybe if you have an all-mechanized army, you can be mobile enough to avoid him, but he's also going to have an army to support him by popping vehicles and letting him clean up after.

Does he have fleet?

DarkPhoenix wrote:
I just turn the Lynx slightly, to point at him.

BS4 Twin-linked, so basically 3 D shots per turn, unless he can cross 48" in 2 turns statistically he gonna get hit with 6+ wounds no saves hit.
And for the 1/9 chance of twin-link missing i can counteract with all non-6 D hits.

Or throw Asurmen at him, same 3+ save and small chance of removing him. Maybe even dire avenger exarch.

Eldar should never have problem fighting Guilliman, simple solution is,using 2 units of 5 D cannon Wraith Guard which in total is 50pts lower than the Primarch, approach from different angle, 10 StrD shots will on average get a "6s" result and remove him. Even if he get back up by 50/50 chance, he is average with 2 wounds back, then he is only able to charge and kill one of your WG units, then next turn your other WG unit could have 5 D shots which would result around 1 wound go through his 3++, then D3 wounds him out.

Bottom line could be get a WK and spam Scatter Bikes, put objectives as far away from each other as possible, then you can simply Ignore Guilliman because he likely only able to kill two units of Scatbike in 5 turns and that's it. He can only helplessly watch his man being killed by tons of S6 shots and that WK jump around him and charge and kill his man.

JakeSiren wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

Spoiler:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:
Throw 90 points of Pink Horrors at it and tie it up for 3 turns. Do it twice and RG is a non-event.

I am afraid those Horrors will vanish back to the Warp due to Daemonic instability test in the 1st turn. Better way is still shoot StrD at him, all mass up Str6+ and drown his company who are mere T4 3+ armor. This Primarch, unlike Magnus is not a unkillable killing machine in his own right But is a great support Character to be placed in the center of an army. Once all those Ultramarines are dead, the Primarch's awesome buff ability is useless and he himself is weak in dishing out damage, due to how slow he is.

And the pinks split into blues which surround him and prevent him from moving until dealt with. Then the blues into Brimstones. It is easy enough to surround an enemy with them. The only reason they won't split is if you roll boxcars.

I think the "split" rule excluded those unit being removed due to Daemonic instability test.

I know the wording around it was originally unclear, but they FAQ'd it in Wrath of Mangus so that only box cars prevents splitting.

FAQ wrote:
Q: It seems that the only thing that stops them from Splitting is if
they roll a Daemonic Instability test result that causes the entire
unit to be taken off of the table. Is this correct?
A: Yes.

Edit: fixed formatting

Well, yes, but this doesn't mean that Horrors who are removed due to Daemonic instability get to Split. If the horror is removed due to instability, that horror does not get to Split.
The FAQ is simply pointing out that if the unit is removed due to Instability, then the horrors who died due to taking wounds earlier in the combat phase still won't get to Split. So if Guilliman can kill 5 or 6 Horrors that will split, then cause an instability test that kills 6 or 7 more, he only has to deal with a fraction as many horrors as he would have otherwise.

Just wondering where in the rule it says that horrors removed due to instability don't get to split regardless of the instability result? At the start of the split rule it says "If a friendly unit of Pink Horrors suffers any casualties, the slain Horrors will split and create Blue Horrors at the end of the phase". There are no restrictions on splitting if the casualties are caused by daemonic instability or other means.

Sorry, I misremembered. What I meant to say was that if the unit is removed by Daemonic Instability, it does not get to split - It doesn't have to be box cars. If the unit is taken off the table by Instability, then it cannot split - Even if it's not boxcars, rolling (for example) a '10' when you're at -8 Leadership and have 3 models left will still remove the entire unit from the table.

How would Kharn do against him?

Follow up question, how would invisible Kharn do against him?

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

 PipeAlley wrote:
Ork Stompa - squish! No hit and run for you!

Honestly, I did some for fun rolling, and Gulliman actually has decent odds of destroying a fresh stompa before it can swing or stomp. If a stompa were wounded by supporting fire from gulliman's army, it wouldn't have a chance.

If the stompa didn't get lucky 6s with its str D hits or stomp (melee hits on 5s, to boot), the stompa will NOT survive a second round of gulliman swinging.

But the answer to "how do orks kill gulliman" is "no".

maybe, MAYBE, if I brought a mind-boggling amount of lootas and flash gits, and no one shot at them, they might eventually be able to bring him down.

But as orks, it's almost impossible to kill something like riptides (or gulliman) at range, and gulliman instapawns anything in the ork codex many times over in CC.

So........yeah, just kind of no.

not quite ghaz in a ghaz council in an orkurion detachment is almost impossible for guilliman to kill. It's hard to kill a WS9 model with a 2++ save 2+LoS and 8x str10ap2 atks. I've yet to see ghaz die in this setup.

gungo wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

 PipeAlley wrote:
Ork Stompa - squish! No hit and run for you!

Honestly, I did some for fun rolling, and Gulliman actually has decent odds of destroying a fresh stompa before it can swing or stomp. If a stompa were wounded by supporting fire from gulliman's army, it wouldn't have a chance.

If the stompa didn't get lucky 6s with its str D hits or stomp (melee hits on 5s, to boot), the stompa will NOT survive a second round of gulliman swinging.

But the answer to "how do orks kill gulliman" is "no".

maybe, MAYBE, if I brought a mind-boggling amount of lootas and flash gits, and no one shot at them, they might eventually be able to bring him down.

But as orks, it's almost impossible to kill something like riptides (or gulliman) at range, and gulliman instapawns anything in the ork codex many times over in CC.

So........yeah, just kind of no.

not quite ghaz in a ghaz council in an orkurion detachment is almost impossible for guilliman to kill. It's hard to kill a WS9 model with a 2++ save 2+LoS and 8x str10ap2 atks. I've yet to see ghaz die in this setup.

Ghaz + council + battlewagon are 850ish point though, guilliman only 350. And SM also have access to free vehicles. Any decent ork tactics about guilliman don't include the sacrifice of their best units in an eternal tarpit or killing him by shooting. Play objectives, bring a fast MSU army and make guilliman assault expendable units that block his way.

Exorcists, multimeltas and meltas out the whazoo.

Ahriman's Exiles formation. 6 psychic shrieks from 4 models that cast on 3+, turboboost away, try again next turn. Bypasses Toughness. Downside is that they need to detach.

D-thirster who survives to swing?

Remember the days when the Swarmlord could use Iron Arm and Warp Speed with a longing gaze out the window.

Alternatively; use Skyblight swarms to take whatever objectives there are while Guilliman brutalizes everything in the Tyranid army he meets.

If only I still hag old zogwort..... squigging Guilliman would be the best thing ever

For my grey knights. Just outmaneuver and shoot him. He only moves 6+d6 run each turn. He's going to find it tough to contribute before turn3.

Guilliman is pretty decent for his point cost. But ways to deal with him:

On average, it takes 36 wounds for him to die, or 18 AP 2 wounds.

Poison is a good way to take him out - Dark Eldar with reroll to wounds is nice. Noise Marines with shred and a couple of +Strength psychic powers would work, too.(In fact, a bare minimum squad of 30 sonic blasters and a single +1 strength psychic power would be 90 shots, 60 hits, 45 wounds and he would be dead.)

That is, of course, a ton of firepower, being twice his points concentrated in a single turn. Probably better to hit everything around him. He'll never make his points back if you don't take Knights and the like.

 davou wrote:
If only I still hag old zogwort..... squigging Guilliman would be the best thing ever

That would make up for all of the ork army's deficiencies if they could consistently squig one unit of any type once per game. Guilliman? Slightly oversized blue-ish squig with a puffed-up face. Belakor? Very irate-looking flying squig. Wraithknight? Wierd runty squig with creepy eyes that smells strongly of cheddar. Dreadknight? Grayish squig in a little baby carrier mech. Even if Zogwort was expensive and required a bunch of useless stuff as a tax, the games would be so memorable that it'd be worth it.

Just don't give us the Zogwort rules from last edition, or make his squigging ability use his BS0 or BS2. Or make it have to bypass all of the psychic defenses that any special character has nowadays. Or make him unable to squig MC/FMC/GMC. That would suck.

 davou wrote:
If only I still hag old zogwort..... squigging Guilliman would be the best thing ever

Behold! Da Squig-mark!

Just ignore him and stay out of his charge range. The ultimate way to defeat him.

Ghorros wrote:
Guilliman is pretty decent for his point cost. But ways to deal with him:

On average, it takes 36 wounds for him to die, or 18 AP 2 wounds.

You forget he has FnP, so those numbers should be multiplied by 1.5. If you really want to take him down, use StrD weapons, which Eldar / Aeldrai, and Chaos have quite a lot choices.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:
Just ignore him and stay out of his charge range. The ultimate way to defeat him.

Agreed, but don't forget to shoot the rest of his army to death, 1st priority is those unit moving fast, like bikers and Jump pack units, if you got tied up by them, you are offering Guilliman time to catch you. After that, shot those guys surrounding Guilliman, they get those awesome buff in movement and offensive, but are still vulnerable because they are still mere Space Marines.

 Blackie wrote:

gungo wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

 PipeAlley wrote:
Ork Stompa - squish! No hit and run for you!

Honestly, I did some for fun rolling, and Gulliman actually has decent odds of destroying a fresh stompa before it can swing or stomp. If a stompa were wounded by supporting fire from gulliman's army, it wouldn't have a chance.

If the stompa didn't get lucky 6s with its str D hits or stomp (melee hits on 5s, to boot), the stompa will NOT survive a second round of gulliman swinging.

But the answer to "how do orks kill gulliman" is "no".

maybe, MAYBE, if I brought a mind-boggling amount of lootas and flash gits, and no one shot at them, they might eventually be able to bring him down.

But as orks, it's almost impossible to kill something like riptides (or gulliman) at range, and gulliman instapawns anything in the ork codex many times over in CC.

So........yeah, just kind of no.

not quite ghaz in a ghaz council in an orkurion detachment is almost impossible for guilliman to kill. It's hard to kill a WS9 model with a 2++ save 2+LoS and 8x str10ap2 atks. I've yet to see ghaz die in this setup.

Ghaz + council + battlewagon are 850ish point though, guilliman only 350. And SM also have access to free vehicles. Any decent ork tactics about guilliman don't include the sacrifice of their best units in an eternal tarpit or killing him by shooting. Play objectives, bring a fast MSU army and make guilliman assault expendable units that block his way.

You don't need the battlewagon ghaz and his star can move run and charge the same turn even in mega armour with reroll on run/charge die due to ere we go.
However my typical star yes is ghaz, Maddoc, dls megaboss, warboss in mega armour, big mek in mega armour w KFF, 3 nobs (1 w bosspole) and battlewagon w killkannon for 914pts. A battlewagon w 4++ can shooting is annoying and hard to kill and once ghaz star debarks and charges the wagon is still annoying running around shooting str7ap3 large blasts plus any rokkits. Girly man than has to deal w ~20x str 10/9 ap2 mostly rerollable ws7-9 atks on the charge w a couple of 2+los bodies all with 5+ fnp. It's annoying hard to kill without lucky stomp. I don't think guilliman will last to the end of turn 2. You are right it's overkill point wise however it's really the only ork way to take him down.

I like the idea of charging a column of cheap tarpit bodies so they aren't getting into his swing range at the same time. Even if they do, a unit of 30 termagants is going to keep him locked in for a while. Although perhaps a better idea is just positioning gaunts around him to block his movement, keeping more valuable units away from him, killing the rest of the army etc.

Or hoping the meta comes up with better counters so that people don't take him in lists...

I suspect he won't be super popular. His speed is a big problem for such an expensive investment. He's basically a very expensive distraction Carnifex.

Squad of 20 sisters with Uriah singing away his rerolling 5++ for the squad and tie him up....then again, that's 350-odd points that's could be better used doing something else.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
The Avatar of Khaine.

In the sweetest ever moment of poetic justice in the 40k universe, Roboute Guilliman, Imperial Primarch, cannot harm the Avatar of Khaine.

We've checked it out over on The Dark City. As his close combat weapon has 'Soul Blaze', the Avatar ignores any attacks made by it. He has no other close combat weapons to attack with a different profile. Nowhere in the rules does it state that you can elect to attack in close combat without using a weapon.

It's a beautiful moment

I look forward to some Smurf player coming here on Dakka and whining about how Gulliman got annihilated by an Avatar.