Hatachi wrote:I hate to hear it's that far off course. I knew it looked off to me. That's why I posted it up here. I don't think you'll be able to fit the lost and the damned formation in there without going to 1850, so I'm posting what I was able to do for 1850 with what you proposed. It looks like the Warband itself comes in just shy of 1500 so another chosen or termie would pop it up to 1500.
I'm going to put this as bluntly as possible, so there's no mistaking the truth - Tzeentch is the worst possible mark for anyone to build a warband around. It doesn't work as intended unless you've already got an invulnerable save, and
even then it's usually a bad choice. You're also wasting a bunch of points on crap units and crap upgrades, but we'll cover that in a minute. I'll be even more blunt - Unless your meta is fully of bad players with bad lists (or you're just significantly better than everyone else you play against), a Tz warband is going to lose on a routine basis regardless of what you do.
Hatachi wrote:Main thing I'm wondering about is if a combat familiar gets attacks if you use a lightning claw in this list, are they completely not worth the points?
Combat familiars give 2x str4
ap- attacks, regardless of what weapon you use. No, they're never worth it.
Hatachi wrote:Should I take a chainfist over a powerfist if possible? Are they just too many points for the value?
On
HQ characters with a decent invulnerable or
EW, it's usually a solid choice, especially if you've got a second non-unwieldy weapon (read: Lightning Claw) to give you a choice of what to swing. 1 in a unit of terminators (not on the champ) is often handy if you see lots of walkers or mech in your area.
Hatachi wrote:The same with Power Swords, are they just flat out worse than Power Axes & Mauls?
Against pretty much everything, yes. Mauls are better against anything with a 4+ or less or T6 or more, axes are better against anything with a 2+ (though if their invulnerable is a 3++ or more, the maul is about the same, while the maul is obviously better at a 2++). Swords are just bad unless you absolutely need to fight at initiative against Low toughness 3+ armour targets, so, like, Incubi who've charged through terrain and that's about it.
Hatachi wrote:Your response on Chosen also makes me ask is their any setup where melee units should take a transport?
Chosen are bad and they should feel bad. Melee units should take a transport if said transport is a land raider and the unit has a super killy
HQ like kharn that's going to get shot to death before they reach combat. Taking a Rhino that you don't ever get into and giving it a dirge caster and using it to provide cover for your advancing guys is sometimes an option, as is buying a rhino because as part of a warband it gets obsec and you park it in your DZ on an objective and leave it there while your fighty units run screaming at the enemy. Otherwise, generally speaking, any melee unit that moves 6" a turn is BAD and shouldn't be fielded. Exceptions are world eaters who get their pregame
2d6 move and (whith a bunch of caveats) things that deepstrike like terminators (they're still better considered a shooting platform with combis though).
Hatachi wrote:I feel like I might still be short on ranged tank busting, but I can't find what would be good at holding them inside the formation.
You're playing Chaos, you're always going to be short on anti tank unless you're playing Iron Warriors. I've got bad news for you - Our codex SUCKS. Our anti tank is stuff with melta guns (
CSM, Havoks, Bikers, Raptors, Termies), Oblits and Auto or Las Havoks. That's about it.
Hatachi wrote:My main army is Dark Angels, so I'm used to playing very range heavy. I'm not as used to kitting out melee squads.
Tzeentch is meant to be a ranged army, which is again one of the reasons why it doesn't work because we've mainly got a bunch of units that all do the same job badly, and very few of them are ranged.
Hatachi wrote:
1 Chaos Lord
- Combat Familiar
- Disc of Tzeentch
- Lightning Claw
- Mark of Tzeentch
- Power Fist
- Sigil of Corruption
- Veterans of the Long War
Much better, though Ideally, he's going to want a unit to go with that can move 12" a turn with him. This means Bikes (
MoT is bad), Raptors (
MoT is not good for them either), Warp Talons (
MoT is OK, but they're already super expensive and die like normal marines for 3 times the points) or Spawn (you should be in cover, but at least
MoT will give you some sort of save). Don't pay for
VotLW though and definately ditch the combat familiar. If you've got 10 points left over, consider a gift here since the lord's going to get the most out of it.
Hatachi wrote:
1 Sorcerer
- 2 Mastery Level
- Disc of Tzeentch
- Force Axe
- Mark of Tzeentch
- Sigil of Corruption
- Spell Familiar
- Veterans of the Long War
Same as the lord, much better, but you're going to want a unit that moves 12" a turn to put him in. Wargear choice is spot on bar
VotLW.
Hatachi wrote:
10x Chaos Space Marine Squad
- Chaos Rhino
- Missile Launcher
- Flamer
- Aspiring Champion with Power Axe
- Veterans of the Long War
No. Missile launchers are snapshooting if the rhino moved, flamers can't fire unless you're danger close, you can't charge if you've fired the missile launcher and missile launchers are trash anyway, plus both weapons have 2 very different targets in mind. Remember that we don't have combat squads, you can't split your guys. You can have 2 specials at 10 men, so
IMHO, if you're not deathguard (for relentless, among a host of other benefits), it's double plasma/melta/flamer or you're doing it wrong. The power weapons on the champ is probably a waste too since you're going to be forced into a challenge and any
HQ character is going to drop you before you swing. If you insist on it though, the Axe is the way to go, since you'll ether be killed at I5 by
HQ characters regardless of what you take, probably tank
AP- attacks at I4 from other sargents or swing at the same time as unwieldy characters and at least you get your AP2 attacks in.
VotLW is neither here nor there, it's expensive, but in my experience,
Ld 10 while the sarge is alive has been beneficial, but is it really worth points? 50/50 at best and those points really add up fast if you're taking vets everywhere.
Hatachi wrote:
10x Chaos Space Marine Squad
- Chaos Rhino
- Lascannon
- Plasma Gun
- Aspiring Champion with Power Axe
- Veterans of the Long War
Less bad compared to the other squad since at least the Las/
plas synergise a bit with ap2, mid/high
str and decent range, but again, the las is snapshooting if you move. Same goes for the power weapon on the sarge. 15 points is a lot for a guy who should rarely see combat, especially on a relatively long ranged squad like las/
plas (though you should be running
plas/
plas, but that also means you won't be charging).
Hatachi wrote:
3x Chaos Bikers
- Veterans of the Long War
- 2 Meltagun
- Power Axe
Yep. Ditch
VotLW though, you're already fearless with the lord in here, Ld10 with the sorc and if you've lost them both already, the bikers aren't going to turn the tide. The Axe is OK, but remember that your lord is going to be fielding most challenges that you can win, and you're going to be throwing your biker champ into any that you don't want your lord to face, so strongly consider dropping the axe here. Rememeber that these guys are ablative wounds for your
HQ's, so don't be afraid to jink when you're hit with AP3 or better because their only job is to get those
HQ's where they need to be.
Hatachi wrote:
4x Chaos Terminators
- Chainfist & Combi-melta
- Powerfist & Combi-melta
- Powerfist & Combi-bolter
- Chainfist & Combi-melta
- Veterans of the Long War
No. Too many fists, no excuse to not have all combis. Their job is to drop in, pop something pricy and then threaten to bully other units if they're not dealt with so they are forcedd to shoot your termies instead of your more squishy elements. Power Axes should be fine (they're free) with 1 chainfist in there so you don't get punked by a dreadnaught and you can almost assure the destruction of any tank you get into combat with. 3 is the usual size, but I (and many others) can't roll dice and repeatedly fail to achieve anything with 3 combis, so going to 4 (or even 5) men isn't the worst thing ever, but it is 36 points for a combi (with attached terminator), so it can add up fast. Vets isn't usually required since either they're all dead or you're not testing. If your opponent has gotten wise and turns plasma/melta/grav on them, then
MoT can help out here. It's not the best thing ever, but it's one of the few places you don't have to feel so bad about sticking to your theme.
Hatachi wrote:
5x Chosen
- Power Maul
- Power Axe
- Power Axe
- 2x Dual Lightning Claws
Chosen are bad, melee chosen are even worse. Look at how much the unit costs compared to some terminators with the same weapon loadout. You also only need 1 elite choice, so unless you've already got 3 heavy support havoks, you don't need chosen for their ability to bring 4 specials and you never need melee chosen.
Fine. It's not great since it's forced to walk across the field, but there are worse choices. Consider that autocannon havoks are excellent light vehicle hunters for roughly the same points in the same slot though. 8 str7 ap4 shots is decent for 110 points.
Hatachi wrote:
Dark Apostle
- Power Maul
- Sigil of Corruption
- Veterans of the Long War
Since he's the lynchpin of your cultists and he's already got a sigil, a
MoT on him isn't the worst choice ever. Vets is pointless since he's already got zealot.
Hatachi wrote:
2x Squads of 10 Chaos Cultists
- 8 with
CCW & Autopistol
- Flamer
- Shotgun
- Mark of Tzeentch
Could be worse. Don't expect these guys to eve make combat though and don't be surprised if they get wiped before they swing if they do. Cultists are not a combat unit unless in overwhelming numbers (40 is not overwhelming numbers by the way).
Hatachi wrote:
2x Squads of Chaos Cultists
- 8 with Autoguns
- Heavy Stubber
- Champion with Autopistol &
CCW
- Mark of Tzeentch
If they're going to sit in terrain (and they should),
MoT doesn't do as much for them.
Also keep in mind that you've already got a bunch of infantry who're generally trying to get into
CC or rapid-fire range. More trash tier infantry aren't going to make much of a difference, so cultists (traditionally used because they're cheap mandatory troops, not because they're good) aren't going to scare anyone.
