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He feels 45 points too expensive when on paper he looks like a 240 point worse Draigo who'll drop to the same large ap 1 str 8 blast his squad will.

Anyone else think that having no EW on a 240 point model is stupid?

He doesn't have EW? That changes things.

Although- S8 Ap2 at Initiative is good, and access to AoD disciplines is something grey knights really need.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
He doesn't have EW? That changes things.

Although- S8 Ap2 at Initiative is good, and access to AoD disciplines is something grey knights really need.

Kaldor Draigo kinda brings s9 ap2 in for the same price and 90% of the time that's just as good as str 10 on a model with force. If you really want you can just ally in a librarius conclave too if you want AoD powers.

 Jaxler wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
He doesn't have EW? That changes things.

Although- S8 Ap2 at Initiative is good, and access to AoD disciplines is something grey knights really need.

Kaldor Draigo kinda brings s9 ap2 in for the same price and 90% of the time that's just as good as str 10 on a model with force. If you really want you can just ally in a librarius conclave too if you want AoD powers.

except dragio plus a conclave is a LOT more then 240 points

BrianDavion wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
He doesn't have EW? That changes things.

Although- S8 Ap2 at Initiative is good, and access to AoD disciplines is something grey knights really need.

Kaldor Draigo kinda brings s9 ap2 in for the same price and 90% of the time that's just as good as str 10 on a model with force. If you really want you can just ally in a librarius conclave too if you want AoD powers.

except dragio plus a conclave is a LOT more then 240 points

A librarian with liber deamonica is better than the hammer guy

A conclave gives you better than him for a comparable price

Draigo does ap at init better

If your running him with a set purpose in mind, he's out classed. If your running him as a generalist, then I have to ask why would you spend 240 points on a model more afraid of melta than Str D

He's got Grandmaster stats and ML3. Not to mention that building a similar character will run you around the same price (paying for a Grandmaster, then a hammer, then a theoretical ML3).

He's not badly priced. The issue is that he doesn't fulfill a role we can't get elsewhere.

He isn't bad at all strike at I with a deamon hammer is great.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The issue is that he doesn't fulfill a role we can't get elsewhere.

He is a great GK HQ, no known GK HQ can stand up to strike at I and he will probably also unlock some new relics. What he isn't is a auto take in IoM soup deathstars ; )

Drop him 45 points, OR give him another wound and ML4.

He just isn't worth it as a beatstick or support character. I would rather have Celestine as my HQ (which I can) and have a ML3 Libby watching my back. ~330ish points for a shitton more value in durability, offensive power, and flexibility.

EDIT: I back up my reasoning. Currently the GM upgrade fails to add a wound, which it should as it is the chaptermaster equivalent upgrade. So you are paying for +1 I and A, it isn't worth it as a result because GW horrendously overvalues ML without regard to what powers a unit has access to. IN short the wound should be "free", especially as he still is very vulnerable to ID Str8. As for ML4, he offers NOTHING a real Libby could do, in fact a baseline Libby has the potential to know more psychic spells than him.... if he is the best libby GK, just squat us.

 Jaxler wrote:
He feels 45 points too expensive when on paper he looks like a 240 point worse Draigo who'll drop to the same large ap 1 str 8 blast his squad will.

Anyone else think that having no EW on a 240 point model is stupid?

Welcome to the world of CSM.

Where Typhus (230 points with Unwieldy) and Ahriman (230 points) don't have EW either while a 200 point bint with her gal pals who she cries back to life on a regular basis comes with EW as standard.

Hell, even the Daemon Prince doesn't have EW....

I think the issue is that he isn't so much overcosted as all of the other new characters are badly undercosted. Celestine being the notable example that is going to show up in many, many armies.

He isn't alone. Greyfax is 50pts more than Coteaz, is trying to do the same sorts of things, and does all of it worse.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
He isn't alone. Greyfax is 50pts more than Coteaz, is trying to do the same sorts of things, and does all of it worse.

Compared to a regular Inquisitor with the same loadout:
You're basically paying 40ish points for her unique Warlord Trait, her unique Psychic Power, and Master Crafted on her sword - That last benefit is outweighed by the fact that her sword DOESN'T have Force, though, which kind of undercuts it. Assuming that her extra Mastery Level costs 25pts, at least.

I'm sorry, is this another 'Oh no! The new, balanced character we've received isn't a dedicated Power Creep over the Donald Trump of the 40k universe!' thread? So sorry you're super-overpowered-Matt-Warded-Destroyer-of-Dignity didn't get over shadowed by your newest walking arsenal...

Waaaghpower wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
He isn't alone. Greyfax is 50pts more than Coteaz, is trying to do the same sorts of things, and does all of it worse.

Compared to a regular Inquisitor with the same loadout:
You're basically paying 40ish points for her unique Warlord Trait, her unique Psychic Power, and Master Crafted on her sword - That last benefit is outweighed by the fact that her sword DOESN'T have Force, though, which kind of undercuts it. Assuming that her extra Mastery Level costs 25pts, at least.

Compared to Coteaz you're paying 50pts to get a better Warlord Trait, a psyocculum, a downgrade on all of his equipment, a less flexible set of psychic powers, and none of his extra toys.

 Quickjager wrote:
Drop him 45 points, OR give him another wound and ML4.

He just isn't worth it as a beatstick or support character. I would rather have Celestine as my HQ (which I can) and have a ML3 Libby watching my back. ~330ish points for a shitton more value in durability, offensive power, and flexibility.

EDIT: I back up my reasoning. Currently the GM upgrade fails to add a wound, which it should as it is the chaptermaster equivalent upgrade. So you are paying for +1 I and A, it isn't worth it as a result because GW horrendously overvalues ML without regard to what powers a unit has access to. IN short the wound should be "free", especially as he still is very vulnerable to ID Str8. As for ML4, he offers NOTHING a real Libby could do, in fact a baseline Libby has the potential to know more psychic spells than him.... if he is the best libby GK, just squat us.

He's being priced around a Grandmaster. Add another ML on him and buy a Daemon Hammer, and suddenly his pricing makes sense. I haven't a clue why you're starting with the Librarian pricing.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
He isn't alone. Greyfax is 50pts more than Coteaz, is trying to do the same sorts of things, and does all of it worse.

Compared to a regular Inquisitor with the same loadout:
You're basically paying 40ish points for her unique Warlord Trait, her unique Psychic Power, and Master Crafted on her sword - That last benefit is outweighed by the fact that her sword DOESN'T have Force, though, which kind of undercuts it. Assuming that her extra Mastery Level costs 25pts, at least.

Compared to Coteaz you're paying 50pts to get a better Warlord Trait, a psyocculum, a downgrade on all of his equipment, a less flexible set of psychic powers, and none of his extra toys.

Well, and a Condemner Boltgun, but that's aside the point. I was trying to compare as 1:1 as possible, since Coteaz is the special Malleus Inquisitor and Greyfax is the special Hereticus Inquisitor. Either way, it's not a pretty comparison. If Greyfax just had a 2+ armor save instead of a 3+, she'd be easily equivalent to Coteaz and worth her cost, but as it stands she' just waaaay to vulnerable to pretty much everything with not enough damage output.


For the new Grey Knight guy, though... I mean, I dunno, I kind of like him. ML3 means you can very easily get Iron Arm, Endurance, or Might of Heroes, all of which make you effectively immune to Instant Death. (Might of Heroes being my ideal, since it gives T6, S10, I7 and A6.) I really like using Psykers, and having a psyker character who's also pretty beefy in Close Combat is really nice. He's not going to give the psychic output of a Librarius Conclave, but that's because the Librarius Conclave is stupid powerful, and he's not going to give the melee output of a Chapter Master Smashfather or a similarly costed 240pt character, but he's a good source of S10 AP2 at initiative, which is generally not easy to come by, and his psychic support is anything but negligible.
He's not an auto-include like Celestine, but he's much better than an obviously overcosted Greyfax.

Put him in the 'Reasonably costed, but not top-tier' category for me.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Drop him 45 points, OR give him another wound and ML4.

He just isn't worth it as a beatstick or support character. I would rather have Celestine as my HQ (which I can) and have a ML3 Libby watching my back. ~330ish points for a shitton more value in durability, offensive power, and flexibility.

EDIT: I back up my reasoning. Currently the GM upgrade fails to add a wound, which it should as it is the chaptermaster equivalent upgrade. So you are paying for +1 I and A, it isn't worth it as a result because GW horrendously overvalues ML without regard to what powers a unit has access to. IN short the wound should be "free", especially as he still is very vulnerable to ID Str8. As for ML4, he offers NOTHING a real Libby could do, in fact a baseline Libby has the potential to know more psychic spells than him.... if he is the best libby GK, just squat us.

He's being priced around a Grandmaster. Add another ML on him and buy a Daemon Hammer, and suddenly his pricing makes sense. I haven't a clue why you're starting with the Librarian pricing.

My point with the librarian is that a librarian with liber deamonica is better psychic support than he is for far less in terms of point cost.

 Jaxler wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Drop him 45 points, OR give him another wound and ML4.

He just isn't worth it as a beatstick or support character. I would rather have Celestine as my HQ (which I can) and have a ML3 Libby watching my back. ~330ish points for a shitton more value in durability, offensive power, and flexibility.

EDIT: I back up my reasoning. Currently the GM upgrade fails to add a wound, which it should as it is the chaptermaster equivalent upgrade. So you are paying for +1 I and A, it isn't worth it as a result because GW horrendously overvalues ML without regard to what powers a unit has access to. IN short the wound should be "free", especially as he still is very vulnerable to ID Str8. As for ML4, he offers NOTHING a real Libby could do, in fact a baseline Libby has the potential to know more psychic spells than him.... if he is the best libby GK, just squat us.

He's being priced around a Grandmaster. Add another ML on him and buy a Daemon Hammer, and suddenly his pricing makes sense. I haven't a clue why you're starting with the Librarian pricing.

My point with the librarian is that a librarian with liber deamonica is better psychic support than he is for far less in terms of point cost.

Which is true, because a Librarian with a Liber Daemonica is not intended to fill the same role as him. He's a psychic beatstick, not just psychic support - Ml3 combined with a S8 AP2 weapon that strikes at initiative, with access to various Librarius spells that boost melee (Might of Heroes plus Fists of Lightning make this guy hella scary if you can get a little lucky. 8 attacks on the charge at S10 AP2, generating 2 extra S5 hits for every hit. Add a Ministorum Priest for rerolls and watch whole squads melt in front of this guy.)
A regular Grey Knights Librarian will shoot off powers better than him, sure, (At least if you're going for Sanctic Daemonology,) but he's going to kick more ass than them when it comes time to trade blows.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Drop him 45 points, OR give him another wound and ML4.

He just isn't worth it as a beatstick or support character. I would rather have Celestine as my HQ (which I can) and have a ML3 Libby watching my back. ~330ish points for a shitton more value in durability, offensive power, and flexibility.

EDIT: I back up my reasoning. Currently the GM upgrade fails to add a wound, which it should as it is the chaptermaster equivalent upgrade. So you are paying for +1 I and A, it isn't worth it as a result because GW horrendously overvalues ML without regard to what powers a unit has access to. IN short the wound should be "free", especially as he still is very vulnerable to ID Str8. As for ML4, he offers NOTHING a real Libby could do, in fact a baseline Libby has the potential to know more psychic spells than him.... if he is the best libby GK, just squat us.

He's being priced around a Grandmaster. Add another ML on him and buy a Daemon Hammer, and suddenly his pricing makes sense. I haven't a clue why you're starting with the Librarian pricing.

My point with the librarian is that a librarian with liber deamonica is better psychic support than he is for far less in terms of point cost.

Which is true, because a Librarian with a Liber Daemonica is not intended to fill the same role as him. He's a psychic beatstick, not just psychic support - Ml3 combined with a S8 AP2 weapon that strikes at initiative, with access to various Librarius spells that boost melee (Might of Heroes plus Fists of Lightning make this guy hella scary if you can get a little lucky. 8 attacks on the charge at S10 AP2, generating 2 extra S5 hits for every hit. Add a Ministorum Priest for rerolls and watch whole squads melt in front of this guy.)
A regular Grey Knights Librarian will shoot off powers better than him, sure, (At least if you're going for Sanctic Daemonology,) but he's going to kick more ass than them when it comes time to trade blows.

Keep in mind though that the librarian is less than 200 points for a model that gets 1 shot by every shmoe with a power fist or melta.

 Jaxler wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Drop him 45 points, OR give him another wound and ML4.

He just isn't worth it as a beatstick or support character. I would rather have Celestine as my HQ (which I can) and have a ML3 Libby watching my back. ~330ish points for a shitton more value in durability, offensive power, and flexibility.

EDIT: I back up my reasoning. Currently the GM upgrade fails to add a wound, which it should as it is the chaptermaster equivalent upgrade. So you are paying for +1 I and A, it isn't worth it as a result because GW horrendously overvalues ML without regard to what powers a unit has access to. IN short the wound should be "free", especially as he still is very vulnerable to ID Str8. As for ML4, he offers NOTHING a real Libby could do, in fact a baseline Libby has the potential to know more psychic spells than him.... if he is the best libby GK, just squat us.

He's being priced around a Grandmaster. Add another ML on him and buy a Daemon Hammer, and suddenly his pricing makes sense. I haven't a clue why you're starting with the Librarian pricing.

My point with the librarian is that a librarian with liber deamonica is better psychic support than he is for far less in terms of point cost.

Which is true, because a Librarian with a Liber Daemonica is not intended to fill the same role as him. He's a psychic beatstick, not just psychic support - Ml3 combined with a S8 AP2 weapon that strikes at initiative, with access to various Librarius spells that boost melee (Might of Heroes plus Fists of Lightning make this guy hella scary if you can get a little lucky. 8 attacks on the charge at S10 AP2, generating 2 extra S5 hits for every hit. Add a Ministorum Priest for rerolls and watch whole squads melt in front of this guy.)
A regular Grey Knights Librarian will shoot off powers better than him, sure, (At least if you're going for Sanctic Daemonology,) but he's going to kick more ass than them when it comes time to trade blows.

Keep in mind though that the librarian is less than 200 points for a model that gets 1 shot by every shmoe with a power fist or melta.

So don't let him get hit by that shmoe? I don't see how this is a problem. Stick him in the middle of a squad - Meltaguns don't magically get to hit him automatically, there's only a couple S8 weapons that can get precision shots on him (Sisters of Battle can get some with Canonness Viridian, but Sisters of Battle aren't threatening to begin with,) and even if he does get hit, he has a 2+ Look Out, Sir! and a 4+ Invuln.
In Close Combat, keep a captain around to eat challenges against real Close Combat beatsticks - If you're fighting like a squad captain or a Nob, just kill him - You have 4 S8 or S10 attacks, it's easy to bop them dead before they get to hit.
Or just cast Might of Heroes to get T6 and you're all set. Even Warpmetal Armor would help against most things, since S10 is a lot harder to get than S8.

You're acting like he's going to be standing out on the street corner letting his cape flap in the wind with nobody around for support.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Drop him 45 points, OR give him another wound and ML4.

He just isn't worth it as a beatstick or support character. I would rather have Celestine as my HQ (which I can) and have a ML3 Libby watching my back. ~330ish points for a shitton more value in durability, offensive power, and flexibility.

EDIT: I back up my reasoning. Currently the GM upgrade fails to add a wound, which it should as it is the chaptermaster equivalent upgrade. So you are paying for +1 I and A, it isn't worth it as a result because GW horrendously overvalues ML without regard to what powers a unit has access to. IN short the wound should be "free", especially as he still is very vulnerable to ID Str8. As for ML4, he offers NOTHING a real Libby could do, in fact a baseline Libby has the potential to know more psychic spells than him.... if he is the best libby GK, just squat us.

He's being priced around a Grandmaster. Add another ML on him and buy a Daemon Hammer, and suddenly his pricing makes sense. I haven't a clue why you're starting with the Librarian pricing.

I'm not, my POINT IS GRANDMASTERS ARE OVERPRICED TO BEGIN WITH!.

 Quickjager wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Drop him 45 points, OR give him another wound and ML4.

He just isn't worth it as a beatstick or support character. I would rather have Celestine as my HQ (which I can) and have a ML3 Libby watching my back. ~330ish points for a shitton more value in durability, offensive power, and flexibility.

EDIT: I back up my reasoning. Currently the GM upgrade fails to add a wound, which it should as it is the chaptermaster equivalent upgrade. So you are paying for +1 I and A, it isn't worth it as a result because GW horrendously overvalues ML without regard to what powers a unit has access to. IN short the wound should be "free", especially as he still is very vulnerable to ID Str8. As for ML4, he offers NOTHING a real Libby could do, in fact a baseline Libby has the potential to know more psychic spells than him.... if he is the best libby GK, just squat us.

He's being priced around a Grandmaster. Add another ML on him and buy a Daemon Hammer, and suddenly his pricing makes sense. I haven't a clue why you're starting with the Librarian pricing.

I'm not, my POINT IS GRANDMASTERS ARE OVERPRICED TO BEGIN WITH!.

Honestly, they really aren't. ID mechanic and mobility (but you can deep strike T1 in their detachment so...) will always be an issue but they're relatively well priced for what you get. 4 attacks, ML2, decent tables to access.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Drop him 45 points, OR give him another wound and ML4.

He just isn't worth it as a beatstick or support character. I would rather have Celestine as my HQ (which I can) and have a ML3 Libby watching my back. ~330ish points for a shitton more value in durability, offensive power, and flexibility.

EDIT: I back up my reasoning. Currently the GM upgrade fails to add a wound, which it should as it is the chaptermaster equivalent upgrade. So you are paying for +1 I and A, it isn't worth it as a result because GW horrendously overvalues ML without regard to what powers a unit has access to. IN short the wound should be "free", especially as he still is very vulnerable to ID Str8. As for ML4, he offers NOTHING a real Libby could do, in fact a baseline Libby has the potential to know more psychic spells than him.... if he is the best libby GK, just squat us.

He's being priced around a Grandmaster. Add another ML on him and buy a Daemon Hammer, and suddenly his pricing makes sense. I haven't a clue why you're starting with the Librarian pricing.

I'm not, my POINT IS GRANDMASTERS ARE OVERPRICED TO BEGIN WITH!.

Honestly, they really aren't. ID mechanic and mobility (but you can deep strike T1 in their detachment so...) will always be an issue but they're relatively well priced for what you get. 4 attacks, ML2, decent tables to access.

I'm not complaining about someone being immune to ID, which is why I suggested another wound instead, ID SHOULD be the counter to him. But the fact is the ML is overpriced on all GK, is our Dreadnought really worth 25 more points because it has a CHANCE at a 6++? ML2 isn't worth anything on such a expensive character because it offers nothing reliable, because since it IS an expensive character you can't spam buy them to increase your chances of any targeted spell.

As for Voldus he does nothing worthwhile because he NEEDS a bodyguard as a result of not having reliable rolls on a psychic table. Remember he won't have the focus of anything but Santic because of his Warlord Trait, and what does Santic do? Nothing worthwhile. If he was ML4 he would have a damn decent chance at getting a power that wouldn't make him die. As it stands if you want him to stay alive you need to stick him with Draigo, in a squad of TEQ.

Why does he need Draigo you ask? Great question, TEQ sucks they die fast and at best you got 10 wounds standing between you and losing a 240 point model, if they could bring Stormshields it wouldn't be a problem. But they can't. The enemy will shoot at Voldus's squad because its warlord kill and most people realize they should go for the easy first blood and warlord rather than shooting a Dreadknight (which still outpaces everything about Voldus).

So in the end we are left with a 240 character that needs a 245 point character to act as bodyguard. Which is insane.

I will reiterate my point.

+1 wound to the GRANDMASTER PROFILE to put them on par with Chaptermasters as they should be.
+1 ML to Voldus because he can't do diddly on his own and you can't even take a lot of this diddly to begin with.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Drop him 45 points, OR give him another wound and ML4.

He just isn't worth it as a beatstick or support character. I would rather have Celestine as my HQ (which I can) and have a ML3 Libby watching my back. ~330ish points for a shitton more value in durability, offensive power, and flexibility.

EDIT: I back up my reasoning. Currently the GM upgrade fails to add a wound, which it should as it is the chaptermaster equivalent upgrade. So you are paying for +1 I and A, it isn't worth it as a result because GW horrendously overvalues ML without regard to what powers a unit has access to. IN short the wound should be "free", especially as he still is very vulnerable to ID Str8. As for ML4, he offers NOTHING a real Libby could do, in fact a baseline Libby has the potential to know more psychic spells than him.... if he is the best libby GK, just squat us.

He's being priced around a Grandmaster. Add another ML on him and buy a Daemon Hammer, and suddenly his pricing makes sense. I haven't a clue why you're starting with the Librarian pricing.

My point with the librarian is that a librarian with liber deamonica is better psychic support than he is for far less in terms of point cost.

Which is true, because a Librarian with a Liber Daemonica is not intended to fill the same role as him. He's a psychic beatstick, not just psychic support - Ml3 combined with a S8 AP2 weapon that strikes at initiative, with access to various Librarius spells that boost melee (Might of Heroes plus Fists of Lightning make this guy hella scary if you can get a little lucky. 8 attacks on the charge at S10 AP2, generating 2 extra S5 hits for every hit. Add a Ministorum Priest for rerolls and watch whole squads melt in front of this guy.)
A regular Grey Knights Librarian will shoot off powers better than him, sure, (At least if you're going for Sanctic Daemonology,) but he's going to kick more ass than them when it comes time to trade blows.

Keep in mind though that the librarian is less than 200 points for a model that gets 1 shot by every shmoe with a power fist or melta.

So don't let him get hit by that shmoe? I don't see how this is a problem. Stick him in the middle of a squad - Meltaguns don't magically get to hit him automatically, there's only a couple S8 weapons that can get precision shots on him (Sisters of Battle can get some with Canonness Viridian, but Sisters of Battle aren't threatening to begin with,) and even if he does get hit, he has a 2+ Look Out, Sir! and a 4+ Invuln.
In Close Combat, keep a captain around to eat challenges against real Close Combat beatsticks - If you're fighting like a squad captain or a Nob, just kill him - You have 4 S8 or S10 attacks, it's easy to bop them dead before they get to hit.
Or just cast Might of Heroes to get T6 and you're all set. Even Warpmetal Armor would help against most things, since S10 is a lot harder to get than S8.

You're acting like he's going to be standing out on the street corner letting his cape flap in the wind with nobody around for support.

Your acting like his squad won't get killed to death on turn 1/2 when they hit the table and can't charge. Draigo can protect his squad and have them protect him, but the new guy can't. His squad of terminators without shields is 2 large blasts away from being wiped, with him along with it. Terminators with no storm shields are horrible (and also bad at defending characters). Also for 270 points you can grab a bare bones dread knight with teleporter and barebones Libby.

I fail to see how this adds to the thread. Snarky comments are not needed; please don't make them.

 purplkrush wrote:
I'm sorry, is this another 'Oh no! The new, balanced character we've received isn't a dedicated Power Creep over the Donald Trump of the 40k universe!' thread? So sorry you're super-overpowered-Matt-Warded-Destroyer-of-Dignity didn't get over shadowed by your newest walking arsenal...

 Lorek wrote:
I fail to see how this adds to the thread. Snarky comments are not needed; please don't make them.

 purplkrush wrote:
I'm sorry, is this another 'Oh no! The new, balanced character we've received isn't a dedicated Power Creep over the Donald Trump of the 40k universe!' thread? So sorry you're super-overpowered-Matt-Warded-Destroyer-of-Dignity didn't get over shadowed by your newest walking arsenal...

He also seems to not realize that kaldor isn't op unless your running him with space marine units, and even then... 9_9

Exactly he fails as a force multiplier, he fails as a beatstick, he fails as a tank. He falls to the great GK problem in that we are generalists to a fault.

ML4 was necessary, but nope, that belongs to Tiggy, the greatest Libby in the Universe.

 Quickjager wrote:
Exactly he fails as a force multiplier, he fails as a beatstick, he fails as a tank. He falls to the great GK problem in that we are generalists to a fault.

ML4 was necessary, but nope, that belongs to Tiggy, the greatest Libby in the Universe.

Tiggy is ML3.

What makes him the best Librarian in the game is he can re-roll his powers an his casting attempts

 Quickjager wrote:
Exactly he fails as a force multiplier, he fails as a beatstick, he fails as a tank. He falls to the great GK problem in that we are generalists to a fault.

ML4 was necessary, but nope, that belongs to Tiggy, the greatest Libby in the Universe.

Nah. Loth's greater. I'll take 2++ and the ability to pick my powers over the cast reroll any day.

Completely right why did I think Tiggy was ML4...

Also picking powers is kinda op, I want average at least first.