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So I played 40k/WHFB from like 98-2012 on and off. I was young, dumb and somehow had way too much money to blow on little plastic dudes.

Just before the 8th Edition Exodus, I sold out of all GW stuff and picked up Warmachine. Which I played solidly for like five years. Then quit just after MK3 dropped for Malifaux. But Malifaux doesn't have enough players in my immediate area for me to play as much as I want. Which.. I actually find pretty demotivating. I haven't played a game in a month or two. Skipped the last tourney. Next one is a month or so away.

I think AoS might be too simple for me, as I'm used to playing games that involve a lot of micro-management.

40k however, still carries a lot of nostalgia. The models are pretty. I can afford it. And has a lot of players. But from the outside, I'm told it's currently a bit of a clusterbleep. And they might even be doing an End Times sort of scenario where they reboot the timeline. I'm actually somewhat afraid purchases will become invalidated before I've even finished painting.

I've always been into Chaos. Doesn't matter what flavour. And the models for the Skitarii look really goofy.

Which brings me to the questions;

1) Is it a terrible idea to start 40k right now?
2) What do I actually need to play? Apparently there's dataslates, theme lists, psychic cards and all manner of crap. I have zero idea how the game works now. I'm 6 years+ removed.
3) What is the tournament system? Is there a Steamroller/Gaining Grounds equivalent? Scenarios?
4) Tell me about what's good in Chaos. I used to play Black Legion in what, 4th edition? Always wanted to do Word Bearers but screw buying the shoulderpads/etc. What is actually worth buying?
5) What is the standard tournament size for games? Sample lists? I'm not looking for ballbustingly competitive, just tournament viable.

Sell me on 40k.

Howabout 30k? More balanced version of 40k and easier to get in that it has less rulebooks etc to hunt. If you want to have marine legion 2 red books is enough. Ad mech? 1 book. Knights, imperial cults or solar auxiliary? 1 book.

1) Not really. Make your decisions based on what's cool rather than what's winning tournaments, and you can save worrying about what's competitive until after the rumoured edition change. GW's been saying "don't panic, it's not an AoS-style reboot, your books will still be legal," so it isn't going to be too drastic. It may even be just an edition change.

The change won't totally invalidate anything; it will shake up the tournament scene, but given how much variance we're seeing in tournaments these days (as opposed to the glorious mono-build Purifier-spam tournament leaderboard of late 5th) the space feels a lot more open to people making non-top-tier armies work than it once did.

2) A Codex, some models, and the normal dice/measuring tools/templates/scratch paper. 'Dataslates' are small one-unit updates/releases found in supplements, digitally, or in White Dwarf; depending on your army you may have none at all or they may have been reprinted in the most current version of your Codex. Psychic cards are optional, if you've got the capacity to read your own handwriting you can replace them with the rulebook that's got the psychic discipline, a die to generate powers, and a piece of paper to write down which ones you generated. Which you're going to have to revert to anyway if you want to use the same discipline on more than one psyker.

(Addendum: If you want to play CSM you'll want the CSM book and the Traitor Legions book. Any further content (Daemon allies, Imperial Armour 13, Traitor's Hate (the only current source for Chaos Knights)) is optional.)

3) There is no official tournament structure the way there is for Warmachine. GW does one-off events, but otherwise you're going through third parties. The ITC format run by Frontline Gaming is a popular one (the Las Vegas Open and Bay Area Open are two big tournaments run that way).

4) Daemons are good but difficult; they tend to rely on figuring out what your opponent wants to be doing and screwing that up, so you need to be at least roughly aware of your opponent's battle plan. CSM used to be a bottom-tier mess, but the Traitor Legions book came along and handed them a bunch of free toys to make ordinary CSM work better.

I can't speak to the top-tier competitive scene, and since Traitor Legions is so new I don't know that much about how it works in practice, but I can tell you that most things in the CSM book are at least functional when formations and formation benefits in Traitor Legions are applied. If you start by acquiring and painting up a minimum Chaos Warband core formation (1 Chaos Lord, 2 CSM squads, 1 Chosen, Terminator, or Possessed squad, 1 Bike, Raptor, or Warp Talon squad, and 1 Helbrute (Chaos Dreadnaught) or Havoc squad) you'll be in good shape to go build a working CSM army.

5) Don't have a tournament-viable list off the top of my head but 1,850pts seems to be the preferred size for tournament play. I like 1,000-1,250pts for casual games (they're quick, you can say "no superheavies" and people will listen to you, and you have to think more carefully about what you're using rather than just taking everything), but it may vary by where you are.

Addendum: The same questions answered as if you're going to take Tneva's advice and look at 30k instead:

1) Nope. 30k is in a good place and we've heard repeatedly from FW and GW "don't panic, all the red books/Imperial Armour content will remain legal and viable when the next edition lands".

2) You need the Legion list and Legion-specific-stuff red books if you want to play Space Marines, the Crusade Imperialis red book if you want to play 30k Guard or Knights, and the Taghmata red book if you want to play the Mechanicum. All red books are conveniently available from Black Library so you can skip getting anything from Forge World at all.

However: if you want to play Blood Angels, Dark Angels, White Scars, Blackshields (neutral Marines who declared "screw the Heresy, we're going off and being pirates), Shattered Legions (post-massive-destruction mashup detachments from multiple Legions), or the Knights-Errant (proto-Inquisition/GK) you will need Book 6, and if you want to play the Thousand Sons, Space Wolves, Talons of the Emperor (Sisters of Silence and the Custodes), or a few extra wacky Mechanicum elements you will need Book 7. Neither of those are available from Black Library and you will need to actually order a big hardback from Forge World.

3) There isn't a standardized tournament mechanism for 30k, most events are narrative and request you show up with a painted army. I haven't been to any so I can't tell you how the gameplay works.

4) Everything. Except for Angron, he's pretty bad.

More seriously: all nine Traitor Legions, traitor elements of the nine loyal Legions, traitor Guard, militias, the Dark Mechanicum, and traitor Questoris households all exist and are all totally useable. That said the only factions that look a lot like they will as Chaos ten thousand years later are the Word Bearers and the traitor militia list, you can sort of see the genesis of Chaos in the other Legions but they're not all the way there yet.

If you're trying to build 30k on a budget (using Calth/Prospero plastics and modern vehicles rather than going for Forge World unique units and era-specific vehicles) you'll probably be going for a shooty Legion with a lot to offer Terminators, Dreadnaughts, and special/heavy weapon troops; the Alpha Legion, Death Guard, Iron Warriors (I suggest building Rapiers out of Kataphron treads if you go this route), and Thousand Sons would all be good options.

Also note that Word Bearers are allowed allied detachments of Chaos Daemons, which could be worth considering as it'd get you a bigger plastic presence in your army.

5) At launch 30k didn't really work under 2,000pts, but with the price drops to the Troops units, the release of the Delegatus, and the Pride of the Legion Rite (which lets you use Veteran Tactical Squads (5-10 models with one heavy/special weapon per five) in place of the 10-20-man Tactical, Assault, and Breacher units in Troops) you can build working small 30k armies that look more like 40k armies. I'd expect you'd still be playing 2,000-ish point games for reasons of flexibility, though.



Addendum on cross-balance: The 30k armies tend to be fairly well-balanced against each other, and they tend to be middle-high bracket against 40k armies. There are weird edge cases where something in one system is disproportionately good against something on the other, but they're rare and unusual.

That said some people may not wish to play against 30k so you should probably check with your local playgroup before going out and getting sixty Mk.IV Tacticals.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
2) You need the Legion list and Legion-specific-stuff red books if you want to play Space Marines, the Crusade Imperialis red book if you want to play 30k Guard or Knights, and the Taghmata red book if you want to play the Mechanicum. All red books are conveniently available from Black Library so you can skip getting anything from Forge World at all.

However: if you want to play Blood Angels, Dark Angels, White Scars, Blackshields (neutral Marines who declared "screw the Heresy, we're going off and being pirates), Shattered Legions (post-massive-destruction mashup detachments from multiple Legions), or the Knights-Errant (proto-Inquisition/GK) you will need Book 6, and if you want to play the Thousand Sons, Space Wolves, Talons of the Emperor (Sisters of Silence and the Custodes), or a few extra wacky Mechanicum elements you will need Book 7. Neither of those are available from Black Library and you will need to actually order a big hardback from Forge World.

Pretty sure though that with book 6/7 ones you just need first red book and then either 6/7 rather than first red book(basic stuff), second red book(legion specific) and 6 or 7. Might be different with shattered legions since you might need the legion specific stuffs for those.

So dark/blood angels etc aren't worse off in that regard to say iron hands and get by just 2 books. Albeit still worse off than mechanimum etc with one book!

That said some people may not wish to play against 30k so you should probably check with your local playgroup before going out and getting sixty Mk.IV Tacticals.

Then again with some cunning preplanning you could build models that work BOTH. Those 60 MKIV marines can generally be used on both systems. Some wargear is bit different like volkite stuff for support squads but generally you could make models that work for both cheaper than having separate 40k and 30k armies.

Thanks for the input.

And yeah, I think I'd prefer to go with vanilla 40k over 30k. I've heard it mentioned locally, and I know it has a smallish following- but me playing 40k again is mostly about having a larger community to play with again.

Ugh, so many books! When I last paid attention, there was like one book per faction and like five less factions.

I see shiny new Thousand Sons. What are they like?

Is there a cheap way to get Word Bearer shoulderpads/iconography?

In what book are the rules for the formation things and the different Traitor chapters?

....

Chaos things I could possibly play based on what I used to like:

1) Black Legion, because they used to be able to take everything. Easy to paint, generic Chaos.

2) Word Bearers, because I like the theme. Don't know hoe Daemons work now.

3) Thousand Sons, because the new models look great.

4) Something with a lot of bikes.

Wait to see if the next edition is any good, if it is give it a go if not you've saved a lot of money.

7th sucks butt and has no balance currently its not worth getting into.

Alternatively 30k is in forge worlds hands and while not perfect is a lot better in terms of balance.

hobojebus wrote:
Wait to see if the next edition is any good, if it is give it a go if not you've saved a lot of money.

7th sucks butt and has no balance currently its not worth getting into.

Alternatively 30k is in forge worlds hands and while not perfect is a lot better in terms of balance.

This.

 Obeisance wrote:
Thanks for the input.

And yeah, I think I'd prefer to go with vanilla 40k over 30k. I've heard it mentioned locally, and I know it has a smallish following- but me playing 40k again is mostly about having a larger community to play with again.

Ugh, so many books! When I last paid attention, there was like one book per faction and like five less factions.

I see shiny new Thousand Sons. What are they like?

Is there a cheap way to get Word Bearer shoulderpads/iconography?

In what book are the rules for the formation things and the different Traitor chapters?

....

Chaos things I could possibly play based on what I used to like:

1) Black Legion, because they used to be able to take everything. Easy to paint, generic Chaos.

2) Word Bearers, because I like the theme. Don't know hoe Daemons work now.

3) Thousand Sons, because the new models look great.

4) Something with a lot of bikes.

To play CSM and get all the fancy new-Thousand Sons/new-formations/special-Legion-specific-stuff you'll need the CSM book and the Traitor Legions book. That's it. Two books.

New Thousand Sons are cool; by giving them more gun options and taking off the psychic discipline limiter from the sorcerer they've made them much more flexible/useful than they used to be. That said a lot of the stuff they do is either enabled/improved by their specific formations (that require many, many Thousand Sons models), or is improved on massively by the 30k Thousand Sons (who are actually Brotherhood of Psykers instead of having a psyker squad leader that can get sniped out). Generally Thousand Sons should be all-in or a limited investment; one or two units in a Black Legion army works fine, but if you want to take more you should strongly consider going all-Thousand Sons.

There are no cheap ways to get Word Bearer shoulder pads, you're stuck with decals.

On specific Legions:

Black Legion can still take everything; the only restriction to building a Black Legion detachment is that you can't use any unique models other than Abbadon. The major distinction their meta-detachment offers is the ability to roll Reserves for Deep-Strike-capable units on turn one, if you're building a normal detachment with them they give you Terminators/Chosen in Troops.

Word Bearers are fairly unrestricted; they're allowed to purchase Marks freely, but the Cult units and their pre-determined Marks are not allowed. Their other distinction is the ability to summon Daemons more easily, which means you'll probably end up using them even if you aren't taking an allied Daemon detachment. Daemons work well, but they work well via shenanigans/strange interactions and I don't recommend trying to jump back into 40k with them unless you're prepared to deal with excessive complexity.

Thousand Sons are a bit of a gimmicky army; your shtick is great Invulnerable saves, but your meta-detachment is highly restricted and your army is heavily reliant on quantity of psychic powers cast each turn. I'm not sure I'd recommend going full-Thousand Sons if only because the psychic phase is probably the first thing that's going to change in the next edition, so the cornerstone of your army is unstable.

Bikes: You can use Bikes in any CSM army, but absent any way to make them Troops or any formation that has a lot of them they're not going to be your centerpiece the way they are for White Scars or Ravenwing. Chaos Bikes are absolutely a useful choice, but you're probably not picking your Legion based on anything about them.

I suggest getting your basic CSM core formation sorted (1x Lord, 2x CSM squads, 1x Bike squad, 1x Havoc squad or Dreadnaught, 1x Chosen or Terminator squad; this also works as a normal CAD outside the formation system (and if you're doing it that way you can add Thousand Sons in to try them out)) and then going and playing small games with just that, figure out what to do with it. You're not trying to work out a tournament-winning netlist right off the bat here, you're trying to make sure you've got a solid core of basic dudes that are going to be the core required to play the army and that are going to function, regardless of how the cards land after the edition change. Sit down, play small games with that, and see if you can figure out what you like/don't like about it and find some direction going forward.

List-building in Warhammer is more subtle, more flexible, and wonkier than it is in Warmachine; you're not going to be swapping between units looking for the right unit to do a job, you're going to be tweaking quirks of loadout to make sure your army can meet its challenges.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
2) You need the Legion list and Legion-specific-stuff red books if you want to play Space Marines, the Crusade Imperialis red book if you want to play 30k Guard or Knights, and the Taghmata red book if you want to play the Mechanicum. All red books are conveniently available from Black Library so you can skip getting anything from Forge World at all.

However: if you want to play Blood Angels, Dark Angels, White Scars, Blackshields (neutral Marines who declared "screw the Heresy, we're going off and being pirates), Shattered Legions (post-massive-destruction mashup detachments from multiple Legions), or the Knights-Errant (proto-Inquisition/GK) you will need Book 6, and if you want to play the Thousand Sons, Space Wolves, Talons of the Emperor (Sisters of Silence and the Custodes), or a few extra wacky Mechanicum elements you will need Book 7. Neither of those are available from Black Library and you will need to actually order a big hardback from Forge World.

Pretty sure though that with book 6/7 ones you just need first red book and then either 6/7 rather than first red book(basic stuff), second red book(legion specific) and 6 or 7. Might be different with shattered legions since you might need the legion specific stuffs for those.

So dark/blood angels etc aren't worse off in that regard to say iron hands and get by just 2 books. Albeit still worse off than mechanimum etc with one book!

That said some people may not wish to play against 30k so you should probably check with your local playgroup before going out and getting sixty Mk.IV Tacticals.

Then again with some cunning preplanning you could build models that work BOTH. Those 60 MKIV marines can generally be used on both systems. Some wargear is bit different like volkite stuff for support squads but generally you could make models that work for both cheaper than having separate 40k and 30k armies.

Addendum: Yes. Technically you can play BA/WS/DA with just Book 6 and the first red book. If you want to.

As for building an army to do both it's certainly doable, and your core of basic dudes certainly does overlap. The limiting factor there is whether your local 30k community is snobbish about GW plastics; some people get grumpy about people trying to use 40k Bikes as Legion Outriders, or 40k Raptors/Assault Marines as the 30k equivalent. If you want to go this route I'd suggest picking one system to start out with, and then making sure you've got enough of the Mk.III/Mk.IV plastics to build a functional army in that system (using Pride of the Legion in 30k and using basic CSM in 40k, just to make sure you're going to have about the right distribution of models for the other system). There will be units that don't overlap well (you can use a lot more Bikes in a 30k list than in a 40k CSM list, for instance), but you can keep the core of the list fairly constant between the two.

(Extra consideration: I'm checking AUS prices and the difference between the price of getting Calth/Prospero Tacticals parted out of the boxed game on Ebay and getting regular CSM from GW may be less than it is in the US ($45-50 AUS down from $60 AUS versus $20 US down from $50 US), but they're still noticeably cheaper.)

You may want to get IA13 if you take that route so you can use Sicarans/Fire Raptors/LR Achilles/etc. with the 40k CSM.

"7th sucks butt and has no balance currently its not worth getting into. "

Completely disagree here, the base ruleset is fine (and 7th is an improvement on clarity and rulebook layout - something GW have historically struggled with) - with the notable exception of Graviton, psychic powers and bikes/jetbikes rules.

The problem I feel is the codex/faction balance (amplified by the three imbalances in the main rule set listed above).

Add to that that some factions have not had a 7th edition codex update and you have some massive disparity in power levels.

The base CSM codex hasn't been updated in years and suffers from low power/overcosting. Traitor Legions addresses this for some Legions (particularly Death Guard).

re CSM Bikers: Death Guard Vectorium!! Not to go into the rules but these guys in this context are incredibly survivable (and they have Objective Secured as part of the Chaos Warband formation).

 Obeisance wrote:

1) Is it a terrible idea to start 40k right now?
2) What do I actually need to play? Apparently there's dataslates, theme lists, psychic cards and all manner of crap. I have zero idea how the game works now. I'm 6 years+ removed.
3) What is the tournament system? Is there a Steamroller/Gaining Grounds equivalent? Scenarios?
4) Tell me about what's good in Chaos. I used to play Black Legion in what, 4th edition? Always wanted to do Word Bearers but screw buying the shoulderpads/etc. What is actually worth buying?
5) What is the standard tournament size for games? Sample lists? I'm not looking for ballbustingly competitive, just tournament viable.

Sell me on 40k.

Sell you on 40k? Well, even without getting into those numeric points, let me just say that it's the best tabletop wargame there is. The reason 40k gamers complain more than anyone is because we love it so much. There's something about the models and the setting and pacing that just makes it so enjoyable. And yeah, if you're looking for micro management, the current edition of 40k pays off that micro management in SPADES. Maybe too much for some people. Ultimately, 40k can be whatever game you want it to be, and thankfully there's enough of a player population that subsets exist to match your play style. We've also got a lot of greybeards in the mix that are often very willing to run demo games or lend armies, so you don't even need to run off the cliff with buying stuff if you just want a taste again. That all said, here's the answers to your questions:

1) Is it a terrible idea to start 40k right now?
Not at all. Yes, we are about to hit an edition change, and all signs point to it being the biggest one since the change between 2nd and 3rd edition, but no models are going to be invalidated. With so much data available online now, you don't even need to pick up a codex if you really don't want to, though I would still suggest doing so to show your support.

2) What do I actually need to play? Apparently there's dataslates, theme lists, psychic cards and all manner of crap. I have zero idea how the game works now. I'm 6 years+ removed.
Depends, as really all you need to play are a few models, dice, the rules for those models, a measuring tape, and an opponent willing to play. The current rules (and this is something that will definitely stay as part of the game) allow for battles of any size. However, most people prefer to play a minimum of 500 points. How those models are purchased and organized into an army are where a lot of those other parts come in. The basics of it are that every unit of models in your army must belong to a detachment. If you throw caution to the wind and just say "whatever", you go with an Unbound detachment, which is literally a detachment of whatever models you want. This is the best detachment for new players in low points games because they might not have enough models to really make a larger and more organized force. The classic detachment is the "CAD", short for Combined Arms Detachment, which is the 1 HQ and 2 Troops that you might remember, plus an additional optional 1 HQ, 4 Troops, 3 Elites, 3 Fast Attack, 3 Heavy Support, and 1 Lord of War on top of that. The neat thing is that every faction also has access to other alternate detachments that have their own organization, and you can find these in each of those faction's codexes or supplements. For example, Eldar have something called an "Aspect Shrine", which is a type of Formation detachment composed of ONLY Aspect Warriors (Howling Banshees, Striking Scorpions, Warp Spiders, etc.), but this formation gives them extra bonuses. Space Marines have a really massive detachment called a Gladius Strike Force that's really meant for larger games, but is composed of multiple formations, and gains a MASSIVE amount of additional special rules.

If you're just getting your feet wet, pick up whatever. If you want to play competitively, you'll want 1850 points of units organized into some specific formations. Anything and everything in between is also an option depending on what you want to play.

3) What is the tournament system? Is there a Steamroller/Gaining Grounds equivalent? Scenarios?
While currently GW doesn't promote any tournaments, many stores run their own tournaments, and there are two major tournament organizations; the ITC and the ETC. The ITC tends to be more popular in the Americas and the ETC more popular everywhere else. Each of these organizations run their own FAQs on top of everything, and you score points for winning ITC/ETC events. Enough points gets you into some of the major tournaments and there are some pretty awesome prizes involved in those tournaments. Beware; competition at these things are pretty extreme, and what's "the best" in the game shifts month to month. Trying to keep pace with these releases is a big drain on the wallet, but this really is what some people love.

4) Tell me about what's good in Chaos. I used to play Black Legion in what, 4th edition? Always wanted to do Word Bearers but screw buying the shoulderpads/etc. What is actually worth buying?
Chaos just got a great bump in the form of Traitors Hate, which allows you to pick whatever Legion you want and get a bunch of great bonuses for being that Legion. Black Legion is one of the weaker legions in general right now, but they do have access to some of the best formations; specifically one that allows you to deep strike with some good stuff on turn 1, and another that makes some Black legion sorcerers very powerful (they get a psychic power that takes over enemy units, which is very strong). Word Bearers are also one of the weaker ones, and don't have nearly as much useful things. The big strength of Word Bearers is their ability to Summon Daemons; additional free forces that fight at your side. Yes that is as good as it sounds.

The tourney-winning Chaos lists focus on Chaos Daemons (often summoning tons of them; especially with Tzeentch Pink Horrors right now that add MORE psychic power to your army, while also splitting into Blue Horrors and Brimstone Horrors in massive amounts if you got the models), or on a Forge World army called Chaos Renegades (Imperial Guard that have fallen to Chaos). Unfortunately, Chaos Renegade rules are only available through Forge World, and they don't have a standard codex. Many local tournaments don't allow Forge World because their rules are seen as less official and often blatantly OP.

5) What is the standard tournament size for games? Sample lists? I'm not looking for ballbustingly competitive, just tournament viable.
1850 points is pretty standard, though a number of players are pushing for the smaller 1500. Sample Lists right now include:
- Space Marine Gladius Strike Force; This army gets FREE transports, and EVERYTHING has something called "objective secured" that allows them to hold objectives even when Khorne himself is towering over them. This army doesn't kill a lot, but has so many tough models that it's just about impossible to kill them all, and then their objective secured means they held the crucial points of the board to win the game.
- Eldar/Ynnari Scatterbike Spam; The Ynnari are a new sub-group of Eldar that are allowed to take pretty much anything from the Eldar, Dark Eldar, or Harlequins, and make it better by allowing them to perform extra movements/shooting/assaults whenever something nearby dies. Scatterbike Spam was already a very powerful list (Scatterbikes are Jetbikes with a heavy weapon; the Scatter Laser. Every jetbike may take one), so being able to make even more movements/shooting when stuff dies (yours or your enemy's) is very powerful.
- BikerStar; "Deathstars" have become very common in the game and tournaments. Pretty much you take lots of different tough stuff and put them together in a single squad where their rules overlap and makes them super-duper tough and killy. A BikerStar is made of Librarians on bikes, possibly Dark Angel ones for additional bike power, and they use psychic abilities to buff their saves and toughness and make themselves invisible, and then they crash into and kill anything they touch. Lots of ways to make Deathstars though, but pretty common Tournament stuff.

zerosignal wrote:
...Completely disagree here, the base ruleset is fine (and 7th is an improvement on clarity and rulebook layout - something GW have historically struggled with) - with the notable exception of Graviton, psychic powers and bikes/jetbikes rules...

In all honesty the bugs are at least as much a property of how army lists have been written as of the core book. People can complain about the MC/FMC rules, but Forge World's managed to put out a Mechanicum list for 30k centered around MCs and allowing MCs as Troops that doesn't trample over any concept of balance by restricting the MCs' speed, guns, armour saves, and melee capabilities far more than GW has; and bikes only start to become silly when stacked with other errors (scatter lasers, grav-weapons, cover save bonuses...).

A change as simple as removing relentless from bikes and the extra move from eldar jetbikes would rebalance significantly.

Drop the immobilised result from graviton (I think this is in the main rulebook? or is it C:SM?)

Nerf invis to BS1 (so templates/blasts still work).

Up summoning WC's (or remove altogether, IMHO free units is a terrible game mechanic).

Limit LOW's per point level (or maybe unit cost by point level).

This would address a lot of balance issues. Oh, and do a new codex for those factions that haven't had an update! (CSM, DE, IG, Orks, Tyranids).

Warhammer 40k is really really great... Just one condition...You are playing against like minded people.

If your local folks are playing Tau Riptide stormsuge markerlight spam, Eldar (jetbike, Wraithknigt), Ynaari (with bikes and wraithknight) etc competetiveliy, you have no chance as chaos. Might aswell pack it up. Its a sad fact. But if people have a gentlemens agreement on not going too competetive its truely an AWSOME game.

Agree with this point, you need to find like-minded people to play with, have a gentleman's agreement etc.

Wellp, this thread sure turned negative.

It's just the balance between factions is so poor.

Right now geedubs is on a massive IoM lovefest, so IoM get pretty much everything (with the notable exception of a boost in power to Eldar. Harlequins and Dark Eldar needed it... Craftworld Eldar most definitely didn't...)

Despite the fact that the major threat to the Imperium is meant to be Chaos and Abaddabadingdong's 13th Black Crusade, geederps failed to update the codex (which is stuck in a five-year time warp of gakness).

Traitor Legions gave Chaos Space Marines a slight boost (trust me, Tzeentch *cough* I mean Chaos Daemons don't need one) to maybe playable level. But in *three* hardback releases with *three* box sets of uber-characters, supposedly about the 'Gathering Storm' (of Chaos). Chaos got... nothing.

Orks, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Imperial Guard are stuck with 5th ed level codices and/or monobuilds.

It's just hilariously badly one-sided faction balance, to the point of being cringe-inducing.

Sooo.... yeah, there's that.

pretty much what zero said, 40k is a hot mess atm.

The game mechanics are on the whole fine (I find it amusing people moan about complexity... I used to play Shadowrun and Battletech... 40K's got nowt on those!)

And as long as you can find a group of people who are willing to tone down or match list competitiveness, it can be a lot of fun.