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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 18:15:45
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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Martel732 wrote:I think he's more referring to the emotional backlash from tier I lists. They can mentally accept nerfing from GW, but not from their peers, who are clearly just jealous of their tier I status.
That's the point of this thread.
Go read all the comments above this from Tau/Eldar players telling you they're totally fine with some nerfs to the Riptide, Scatterbikes, Wraith units, etc.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 18:22:12
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
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Orks are an army I can't even begin to figure out. They should be always be S4 T4, maybe they have a 5+ save at a minimum, just to imply they have tougher than human skin.
Get rid of mob rule, instead FNP and fearless for all units since they are jacked-up crazy nutters. But if they lose half their unit they lose FNP and Fearless.
Give those crazy cool looking fliers some ap3 or 2 weapon options
Drop deffkoptas by 15 pts
Up the armor values on trucks / wagons etc..
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 18:24:03
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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AnomanderRake wrote:Martel732 wrote:I think he's more referring to the emotional backlash from tier I lists. They can mentally accept nerfing from GW, but not from their peers, who are clearly just jealous of their tier I status.
That's the point of this thread.
Go read all the comments above this from Tau/Eldar players telling you they're totally fine with some nerfs to the Riptide, Scatterbikes, Wraith units, etc.
Those are some of the players. But my real life opponents would only ever accept changes from GW. The enjoy making IG and BA player scoop their lists in 3 turns. That's how they derive enjoyment. They will gravitate to any list that can do that, and GW always obliges.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 18:29:06
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
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AnomanderRake wrote:Martel732 wrote:I think he's more referring to the emotional backlash from tier I lists. They can mentally accept nerfing from GW, but not from their peers, who are clearly just jealous of their tier I status.
That's the point of this thread.
Go read all the comments above this from Tau/Eldar players telling you they're totally fine with some nerfs to the Riptide, Scatterbikes, Wraith units, etc.
The nerfing people say they will accept is, I think, paying everyone lip sevice. Tau and especially Eldar players are frankly tired of the complaints that their Codex's granted them access to strong units. So they will tell you that they'd happily accept nerfs to riptides, D-weapons, wraith units, etc...
Also nerfs are inherently harder to do because people can give some nerf idea in a vacuum without thinking of the repercussions of the nerfs when 500 or so other units in the game square off against that unit. Also Buffs are easier to figure out and to stomach. Telling someone that spent a crap ton of money on a model that now sucks leads to more complaints and further animosity in the community.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 18:33:06
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Access to strong units that get relentlessly spammed. Because choosing other units is mathematically inferior. It's a game of math, whether GW wants to admit it or not.
Fluff can't save you on the tabletop.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/15 18:33:17
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 18:33:16
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
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Who's going to complain when a weak army gets buffed? no one. They deserve their time in the sun after being crapped on for years.
Why should my army be nerfed though. Feth-you and your jealousy or lack of desire to innovate or expand your weak army or the weak army build you've chosen to field.
- the answer (in their minds) that players with strong armies have when they get critical looks and comments. Automatically Appended Next Post: If you're local meta is power gaming then yes, it will suck for you if you're beloved army is lower tier.
Instead of moaning about nerfs or asking why players with strong armies choose the lists they do, instead propose ways to make weak armies stronger. Make weak units better.
The meta has shifted. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th ed are gone. Get over it.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/15 18:37:35
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 18:45:44
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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Naaris wrote:...Why should my army be nerfed though. Feth-you and your jealousy or lack of desire to innovate or expand your weak army or the weak army build you've chosen to field...
See, I'm trying to ask the community of good sportsmen that I think exists to come out and tell us that they're open to having a calm, measured discussion about what units are outliers that need attention from us in Proposed Rules and what can be done to fix them. I'm trying to avoid a situation wherein people decide they need to make unilateral changes to their army based on a perception of other armies in the game that doesn't necessarily have any bearing on people who play that army's experience.
You've decided this is a good place to barge in and fling insults, because obviously nobody is really a good sportsman, and you need to be unilaterally buffing your army to avoid the imagined hate from Eldar players when you tell them scatterbikes might need to be toned down.
Despite all the Eldar players telling you they know scatterbikes are overpowered and need to be toned down.
Personally I think that says more about you than it says about the rest of the 40k community. I'd prefer it if you stopped to think about what you're saying before it comes out of your mouth.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 18:47:41
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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It's not imagined. The ones I actually play with say they will be pissed with any change to Windriders.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 18:56:28
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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Martel732 wrote:It's not imagined. The ones I actually play with say they will be pissed with any change to Windriders.
You may wish to start prefacing your posts/proposals with "I'm trying to make unit X work in my local meta where scatterbikes are commonplace and people get pissed when I ask them to change them/not to use them" rather than generalizing from your meta to all Eldar players in the world without asking anyone else.
(Seriously. Some of us resent the association.)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/15 18:57:56
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 18:57:43
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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AnomanderRake wrote:Martel732 wrote:It's not imagined. The ones I actually play with say they will be pissed with any change to Windriders.
You may wish to start prefacing your posts/proposals with "I'm trying to make unit X work in my local meta where scatterbikes are commonplace and people get pissed when I ask them to change them/not to use them" rather than generalizing from your meta to all Eldar players in the world without asking anyone else.
And every tournament ever.
I'm not generalizing per se. I'm explaining the philosophy behind the "no nerf" crowd.
And to be fair, the attitudes of my local players matters far more to me than the internet.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/15 18:59:04
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 19:00:55
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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Martel732 wrote: AnomanderRake wrote:Martel732 wrote:It's not imagined. The ones I actually play with say they will be pissed with any change to Windriders.
You may wish to start prefacing your posts/proposals with "I'm trying to make unit X work in my local meta where scatterbikes are commonplace and people get pissed when I ask them to change them/not to use them" rather than generalizing from your meta to all Eldar players in the world without asking anyone else.
And every tournament ever.
I'm not generalizing per se. I'm explaining the philosophy behind the "no nerf" crowd.
And I'm trying to establish that the 'no nerf' crowd is a minority, and shouldn't be used as a justification for decisions made on Proposed Rules.
As a secondary point here: who cares what tournament players think of your houserules? Has anyone here ever played in a tournament that would even consider allowing any kind of homebrew content? (Except scenarios as provided by the TO?)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 19:02:05
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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I care if I want to practice for a tournament. I'm not putting effort into home rules that no one will use.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 19:03:32
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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Martel732 wrote:I care if I want to practice for a tournament. I'm not putting effort into home rules that no one will use.
Wait, so you're telling me you live somewhere there's a gamestore that would let you use a homebrew army in a tournament?
(And if not, why are you practicing for a tournament with an army you can't use in said tournament?)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 19:18:47
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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No. I'm saying I can't use homebrew rules anyway if I'm practicing for say an ITC event. I have to practice with THEIR homebrew rules. Which, while better, don't do much for BA in general. I can't believe they didn't at least hit scatterbikes.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/15 19:19:03
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 19:21:28
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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Martel732 wrote:No. I'm saying I can't use homebrew rules anyway if I'm practicing for say an ITC event. I have to practice with THEIR homebrew rules. Which, while better, don't do much for BA in general. I can't believe they didn't at least hit scatterbikes.
So back up a step.
You're telling me you care what tournament players think about your suggestions on Proposed Rules because you might need to use them when practicing for a tournament.
But the tournament doesn't allow you to play with the aforementioned suggestions on Proposed Rules.
Why, then, are you worried whether you're allowed to bring units you can't use in the tournament, when practicing for the tournament?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 19:28:21
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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I only care in that I don't know anyone who will actually use my homebrew rules in real life.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 19:40:24
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
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AnomanderRake wrote:Naaris wrote:...Why should my army be nerfed though. Feth-you and your jealousy or lack of desire to innovate or expand your weak army or the weak army build you've chosen to field...
See, I'm trying to ask the community of good sportsmen that I think exists to come out and tell us that they're open to having a calm, measured discussion about what units are outliers that need attention from us in Proposed Rules and what can be done to fix them. I'm trying to avoid a situation wherein people decide they need to make unilateral changes to their army based on a perception of other armies in the game that doesn't necessarily have any bearing on people who play that army's experience.
You've decided this is a good place to barge in and fling insults, because obviously nobody is really a good sportsman, and you need to be unilaterally buffing your army to avoid the imagined hate from Eldar players when you tell them scatterbikes might need to be toned down.
Despite all the Eldar players telling you they know scatterbikes are overpowered and need to be toned down.
Personally I think that says more about you than it says about the rest of the 40k community. I'd prefer it if you stopped to think about what you're saying before it comes out of your mouth.
I like how you cut out the part where the sentiment you quoted is one that Tau and Eldar players, I believe are thinking.
This is not a thread for people to complain about the relative power of their armies. I am trying to get a sense of whether the stereotype of Tau/Eldar players that's being sold to the Proposed Rules forum has any basis in fact.
- okay.
I'm seeing a lot of massive buffs to non-Eldar/Tau units and broad sweeping changes to the core rules in Proposed Rules getting justified as necessary to compete in a world of Riptides, Scatterbikes, and D-weapons. When I've asked I've also been told that giving massive buffs to the rest of the game is somehow more palatable than trying to suggest fixes to the problem units in the game, and that Eldar/Tau players would object to their toys being taken away.
- Yes it would be more palatable for any owner of any model considered strong to have other armies brought up to the current power level than to have their models nerfed. Those models were purchased because they were good and probably also liked by said owner.
- By this logic, I am sure that scores of marine players would be happy if they had their librarius conclaves nerfed, and gladius's/ lions blades nerfed, especially after purchasing 5-10 more transports than they normally would have.
As an Eldar player I'm finding this extremely confusing, as I happen to think that intentionally choosing not to play with massed D-weapons/scatterbikes or putting up suggestions here that distortion be nerfed and Windriders be limited to one gun per three models is more balanced, more straightforward, and less annoying than stuffing the rest of the game with massive price cuts, easy access to Fleshbane/2+ poison, and 30k heavy support squads (at a 5pt/model discount over the original, of course).
- The eldar codex was brutal in it's construction because it set the bar too high in terms of inherent codex balance. No other army is even close to having 99% of their codex be viable. Eldar are such an extreme outlier. It also doesn't help when many other still suffer and Eldar get another bump with Aeldari.
- However the fact that you can stomach the nerf to eldar is moot. All long time eldar players, meaning to me at least, eldar players prior to 6th ed., I can assume are extremely frustrate by Eldar's skyrocketing power level. I personally play with an almost 20 year eldar vet who doesn't even want to play them because of the shade thrown his way. He can't change it. Instead of imposing nerfs on his army, he awaits the day when everyone else gets brought up to that level.
- I am glad you choose to play depowered Eldar. Good for you for recognizing the disparity.
So I'd like to hear firsthand from other Eldar players and some Tau players. Firsthand. Directly. Would you be more annoyed to wake up tomorrow and find out that Riptides had become 3+ armour and Riptides/Stormsurges had lost access to stimulant injectors, that Windrider Jetbikes had been downgraded to 4+ armour and split into a Troops unit capped at one gun per three models and a Fast Attack unit that could have as many guns as they liked (and couldn't be taken in a Windrider Host formation), and that Wraithknights had been bumped to 450pts and could only be taken as 0-1 per Core choice in a Craftworld Warhost rather than as an Auxiliary choice? Or if you woke up tomorrow to find that vehicles now had an armour save, that Plague Marines had 2+ Poison on all attacks of any kind, and that all Land Raider-chassis tanks had become 50pts cheaper overnight?
- Obviously I would be more annoyed if eldar and tau were nerfed.
- More so I am angry at the tau haters. Tau are 1 trick ponys. They perform that trick very well. Not extremely well as Eldar have unseated them from being kings of shooting. I see major flaws in complains over tau. Riptides are not invincible. Any armies with AP 2 shooting and psykers can kill them. Any armies with high volume of fire can kill them. They die in assault or get tied up. They are prone to being swept. Also grav just wrecks them.
- Also on the tournament scene - I urge people to visit http://bloodofkittens.com/7th-edition-army-list-compendium/. 1 entirely tau list won an event so far in 2017. the highest placing all tau list came in 7th at the LVO. The 2 other tau lists are almost 50/50 tau with other factions.
As a follow-up question: What makes people so attached to the 220pt Ion Accelerator/Stimulant Injector Riptide, the D-Scythe Wraithguard, and the 27pt/model 100%-gun-density scatterbike unit that they insist on revising the entire game around them, rather than change them in any way?
- Why would anyone, if the points allow it No field D-scyth WG? that many D3 wound flamers at ap 2 is brutal and guarantees a unit is killed. Scatterbikes? again. 36" range + eldar jet bike mobility on obesc troop choices make anything else laughable.
- Riptide meta has changed. riptide wings in competitive metas have them all run them with out FNP upgrade.
Look, the meta you're in dictates all the sentiment on these forums. My meta is competitive. I have a guy just started coming to the shop that has a cute elaborate tale of his Alexander the Great themed marine chapter. So of course it makes sense that he drowns you in thunderwolf cavalry coupled with an ultramarine skyhammer force.
Martel is right. The game comes down to math. GW is not good at math. They are also not good at taking every facet of the game into account. They highly undervalue movement and seemingly have no baseline on unit costs or stat costs. Eldar dex is brutal in that the same gun has different costs depending on the platform.
The reality is that most units, even powerful ones are okay in moderation. Formations have undoubtedly made everything worse (regarding power creep). Some dexes have not caught up and those players suffer. Spamming anything is brutal and is nothing more than codex abuse and power gaming. It's not fluffy nor is it in the spirit of "fun".
Lastly, if you want a fun game, you'll have to really put in the effort to pre-arrange them and talk to your opponent. Coming to a mutual agreement should be possible.
Myself and other gamers at my FLGS have started running themed nights and narrative campaigns that aim to steer people away from power gaming, rather than impose shop house rules / nerfs or bans on units and armies.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 19:43:23
Subject: Re:Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Stealthy Kroot Stalker
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As a Tau player, I would accept reasonable nerfs to our outliers (most notably Riptides, Ghostkeels, Stormsurges) and overly powerful formations (most notably Riptide Wing), so long as it was accompanied by nerfs to the other most problematic outliers in other codexes (Wraithknights, 2++ rerollable saves, Scatterbikes, Gladius, Grav weapons, etc.). This should NOT be mutually exclusive with reasonable buffs to the outliers from the other direction - the easiest balance to achieve would be somewhere in the middle, given that small nerfs and small buffs are exceedingly more acceptable to other players (because while we aren't limited by GW here in Proposed Rules, we are limited by other players and their default acceptance).
What almost always happens, however, are neither reasonable nerfs nor reasonable buffs - what I almost always see, here and anywhere else that proposed rules are discussed, is a long and fruitful discussion of the various ways that rules can be brought to reasonable levels (for good or bad), and a general consensus that the best way to achieve it is to apply EVERY potential change discussed, resulting in a ridiculously nerfed (3+/6++ armor 4 wound T5 Riptide for 300 points!!!1!11!!) or ridiculously buffed (Lasguns are now assault 4 S4 AP6 Rending!1!!1!1!!).
Frankly, I'd rather see SMALL conservative changes, even to the most overpowered units, tested... BEFORE you apply other changes that may or may not be warranted. If you're going to change the Riptide, try it with just the 3+ instead of 2+ before you ALSO increase its points and ALSO remove FnP. If you're going to change the Scatterbike, try it at 4+ armor save OR 1 Scatterlaser per 3 bikes OR increased Scatterlaser cost, not ALL at the same time.
This would NOT be the fastest way to find the Most Balanced Houserules Ever(tm), but it would almost certainly be the fastest among the ways that will actually lead to you finding willing subjects to test the balance of your proposed rules. Weaken my Riptide's armor by a bit, and a Tau player like me is likely to consider testing the change to see if the Riptide can still perform at all. But Weaken every aspect of Riptides ever, while increasing the cost to the point that it might as well be a Gorkonaut for all the good it will do on the table, and you simply won't find a lot of Tau players willing to test out your houserules in a meaningful way, because they simply wouldn't want to bother bringing a unit at all.
Same goes, essentially, for buffing your own units. Giving your Orks FnP 6+ might fly, because most of your opponents will recognize that Orks need a bit of a boost. Make that FnP 4+, increase base S to 4, and give them 4+ armor without increasing the point cost at all, and you're simply not going to find willing opponents to play against.
@AnomanderRake
I applaud your approach, and I think I've expressed a great deal of agreement with it, but an informal internet poll of the people who are already browsing the Proposed Rule forum (and are thus at least more likely to be interested in considering, well, Proposed Rules) doesn't strike me as a good representation of 40k players as a whole.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 19:45:09
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
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PS - I disagree with you that most people want to see nerfs. Most people would rather see new dexes or supplement books that give their underpowered armies / units buffs.
The only people that i've seen complain here, on BoLS, natfka, frontline gaming etc... sites that seem to want nerfs are old players who, more often then not, are seen talking about 3.5ed chaos marines, or 2nd end whatever army.
like I said before. nerfs are not coming. new units. better rules and formations are.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 19:46:16
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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"Riptides are not invincible."
This is a very strange situation.
With stims and nova 3++ turned on, they are damn close. HOWEVER, I realize that most tournament players in the big events don't use them this way.
They do, however get used this way a LOT where I play. I don't know what this means, because they are being used vs other tournamentesque lists.
Bottom line: the nova shield and stim need to die in a fire.
Other mathematical annoyances: S5 is TWICE as good vs the standard MC as S4, which is the same as S3. I can't express to Tau players enough what a huge advantage this is in 7th ed MC-40K.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/15 19:50:46
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 19:56:58
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
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Martel your blood angels got grav. you also have formations that let you deepstrike and assault with St8 terminators.
I seem to recall your main problem being that you refused to buy new models or change the way you play your blood angels. Blood angels are much better since those campaign books came out.
Also nothing is stopping you from running bikes with grav guns or anything else that lets you kill riptides.
You should have drop pods with the tools inside to level a riptide.
Try doing what I suggested and control the game style before hand. prearrange games with opponents. play campaign missions. Automatically Appended Next Post: Unusual Suspect wrote:As a Tau player, I would accept reasonable nerfs to our outliers (most notably Riptides, Ghostkeels, Stormsurges) and overly powerful formations (most notably Riptide Wing), so long as it was accompanied by nerfs to the other most problematic outliers in other codexes (Wraithknights, 2++ rerollable saves, Scatterbikes, Gladius, Grav weapons, etc.). This should NOT be mutually exclusive with reasonable buffs to the outliers from the other direction - the easiest balance to achieve would be somewhere in the middle, given that small nerfs and small buffs are exceedingly more acceptable to other players (because while we aren't limited by GW here in Proposed Rules, we are limited by other players and their default acceptance).
What almost always happens, however, are neither reasonable nerfs nor reasonable buffs - what I almost always see, here and anywhere else that proposed rules are discussed, is a long and fruitful discussion of the various ways that rules can be brought to reasonable levels (for good or bad), and a general consensus that the best way to achieve it is to apply EVERY potential change discussed, resulting in a ridiculously nerfed (3+/6++ armor 4 wound T5 Riptide for 300 points!!!1!11!!) or ridiculously buffed (Lasguns are now assault 4 S4 AP6 Rending!1!!1!1!!).
Frankly, I'd rather see SMALL conservative changes, even to the most overpowered units, tested... BEFORE you apply other changes that may or may not be warranted. If you're going to change the Riptide, try it with just the 3+ instead of 2+ before you ALSO increase its points and ALSO remove FnP. If you're going to change the Scatterbike, try it at 4+ armor save OR 1 Scatterlaser per 3 bikes OR increased Scatterlaser cost, not ALL at the same time.
This would NOT be the fastest way to find the Most Balanced Houserules Ever( tm), but it would almost certainly be the fastest among the ways that will actually lead to you finding willing subjects to test the balance of your proposed rules. Weaken my Riptide's armor by a bit, and a Tau player like me is likely to consider testing the change to see if the Riptide can still perform at all. But Weaken every aspect of Riptides ever, while increasing the cost to the point that it might as well be a Gorkonaut for all the good it will do on the table, and you simply won't find a lot of Tau players willing to test out your houserules in a meaningful way, because they simply wouldn't want to bother bringing a unit at all.
Same goes, essentially, for buffing your own units. Giving your Orks FnP 6+ might fly, because most of your opponents will recognize that Orks need a bit of a boost. Make that FnP 4+, increase base S to 4, and give them 4+ armor without increasing the point cost at all, and you're simply not going to find willing opponents to play against.
@AnomanderRake
I applaud your approach, and I think I've expressed a great deal of agreement with it, but an informal internet poll of the people who are already browsing the Proposed Rule forum (and are thus at least more likely to be interested in considering, well, Proposed Rules) doesn't strike me as a good representation of 40k players as a whole.
Great post! But regular FNP should suffice. Lets not get nuts with 100boys and 4+++
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/15 19:58:46
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 20:01:26
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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BA have grav, but none of the formations or psychic powers that make it work. Assault from deep strike is actually painfully useless vs "all interceptor all the time" Tau.
"I seem to recall your main problem being that you refused to buy new models or change the way you play your blood angels"
That's funny, because i can field every formation they have except for the triple stormraven one. I've completely revamped everything since angel's blade, and have multiple lists. They're just not mathematically competitive with vanilla marines or tau or eldar. Bottom line: Jump troops aren't good, and vehicles aren't good. That's what BA have in spades. Game over.
Do I have to drag out the math on grav vs a stimtide with nova shield? Grav is not an effective answer.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/15 20:05:44
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 20:16:01
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
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I want to see your math on a 2 grav cannons from a devsquad shooting out of a rhino on a riptide that has it's 5+ invune and 5+ FNP. Then I want to see it on 3+ invun with 5+ FNP.
please.
Remember that signum!
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/15 20:17:02
9000
8000
Knights / Assassins 800 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 20:16:27
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Waaagh! Ork Warboss
Italy
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"riptides are not invincible"
I agree, they're not, but we never face one or two, we usually face 3-5. And a stormsurge.
For those who thinks orks needs buffs, I'm an ork player and I'm ok with the ork codex, it's seems fair to me overall. But a lot of things that belong to other codex don't have any sense. WK costs as much as the gork/morkanaut for example.
I think 10ish overpowered units in the entire game need a huge nerf as they can be acceptable in 3000+ points game but not in regular ones. GMCs and superheavies should belong only to apocalypse games, scatter laser and grav shouldn't be allowed on troops. Free vehicles are insane. But also tau big robots have too many wounds, for their cost they should be dreadnoughts with better weapons. Alliances should never existed, and superheroes like guilliman, cawl or celestine either.
Fixing 10ish thing is certainly better than a complete rewrite of low-mid tier codexes. And honestly orks, dark eldar, harlequins, AM, BA, tyranids, sisters are appealing armies, I like them all exactly as they are. Some armies can field lists with no weaknesses and this is bad.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 20:19:29
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
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Blackie, your telling me that on the weekly gaming night where you play, that if you face off against a tau player, you will, without a doubt, face 3-5 riptides.
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9000
8000
Knights / Assassins 800 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 20:21:16
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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2 grav cannons have 10 shots at 24" that yield
7.5 hits (8.6 w/cherub usage) that generate 7.4 wounds (8.5 w/cherub) because of grav amps, which then clear 3.3 (3.8 w/cherub) wounds vs 5++/5+++ or 1.6 wounds (1.9 wounds w/ cherub) vs 3++/5+++. So a full squad can't quite kill a nova stimtide, even using ammo cherub.
Or dear god the signum. Hold on. It's not going to change much. Okay fixed.
The Nova shield just kills any hope of damaging this thing. Even if I could get a full grav dev team within 24" without having them move, they still fall over a wound short vs a SINGLE nova stimtide. That's assuming no casualties. What do you think will be the first thing targeted by the Tau?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Naaris wrote:Blackie, your telling me that on the weekly gaming night where you play, that if you face off against a tau player, you will, without a doubt, face 3-5 riptides.
So do I. With stims.
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This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/03/15 20:27:04
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 20:28:56
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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If WKs, Scatterbikes and Riptide wing is so OP at the moment, why aren't Taudar lists 4 out of the top 8 of most events? Or is it? I'm not trying to be antagonistic, it is just that all this talk about them gets me thinking about what is keeping Taudar lists out of those top spots. I don't play Tau, but Riptide wing is tempting to add to my Eldar for a cut-throat tourney list.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/15 20:30:22
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 20:30:08
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Galef wrote:If WKs, Scatterbikes and Riptide wing is so OP at the moment, why isn't it 4 out of the top 8 of most events? Or is it?
I'm not trying to be antagonistic, it is just that all this talk about them gets me thinking about what is keeping Taudar lists out of those top spots.
People are understandably building against them. And some factions have caught up. And don't forget vanilla marine gimmicks are just as broken. Just in a very different way.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 20:34:15
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
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my team says that 4 wounds go through on a 5++/5+++ from 10 grav shots half at BS 5 and half at bs4 - thats without cherub.
7.5 hits wounds is right. should lead to 2 saves with 5++. thats 5 wounds. FNP maybe saves 1 more. that's 4 wounds. on average.
Can anyone else chime in here. These numbers are fairly different.
As for the number of riptides you fight. I'm sorry you play at a shop with WAAC neckbeards who make all tau players look like jerks and use 40k to take out their own frustrations on others.
Do they really need to win that badly? They probably justify the list too. Smacks of an inferiority complex. Sad. just Sad.
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9000
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Knights / Assassins 800 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/15 20:35:49
Subject: Open question to Eldar/Tau players
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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5++/5+++ blocks 55.5% of all damage, leaving the multiplier as 0.4444. 3++/5+++ blocks as massive 78% of all damage, leaving 0.222 as the multiplier. My math is correct.
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