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I didn't see too many threads relating to the newly-released Roboute Guilliman model, so I thought I'd start one. Specifically, I'm curious if RG is any good in an army other than Ultramarines. I run Dark Angels myself, and I have a budding force of Space Wolves, and I just picked up the Triumvirate of the Primarch. I was considering building a list with a Dark Angels CAD (with RG) and a Ravenwing Strike Force, taking advantage of the big bubble of command traits to wreck some face. Not terribly fluffy, I know, but could such an army work? People could also discuss other combos of with RG in this thread for their own Imperial armies.

I've been mulling over taking RG for my IG army for some time now. He fills a melee role the IG is sorely lacking, on par with an IK but tougher. His command benefits would be a HUGE deal for an IG army, because it means I won't need to spend any points on Commissars and Priests. That alone will save me 50-75 points, so on top of being a beast on his own RG actually saves me points on other things.

Apart from his overall melee uses and endurance, I don't see him being that useful for armies that don't suffer from leadership issues like the IG. Most of his command benefits would go to waste on dark angels as you already have grim resolve with good leadership and ATSKNF.

This is all just speculation of course as I've never used him.

Yeah, the leadership command trait is not as helpful, as I could just take Azrael instead if I want leadership 10 on everything. The other command traits seem pretty good, like anything within 12" of him gets to reroll 1's to hit in both shooting and CC. Plus there's the debuff to enemy leadership (forcing them to use the lowest rather than the highest in a unit) which is somewhat situational, and the +1" to run and charges, and the Move Through Cover one, which could be good on non-Black Knight Ravenwing. To me the benefits are solid, but I'm not sure it's worth 350 points in my army, hence this thread.

He could be quite effective with Sisters I think - Ld 10 is good for Acts of Faith and all the other benefits are useful.

Like Celestine he is pretty good at chopping stuff up

He's basically useless for BA. He doesn't fit in a pod, and then "what is this foot slogging you speak of?".

He really helps out a ton of armies.

First off, anyone within 12" of him is going to benefit from his buffs. Assault armies love getting +1" on runs and charges, and re-rolling 1s to hit in combat. Shooty armies love re-rolling 1s to hit in shooting. His army-wide leadership buff isn't going to be that important for Power Armored guys, but it's still pretty darn useful.

On top of that, he's one hell of a beast himself. A lucky D shot or stomp attack is about the only way to really kill him for most armies, but he's scary - Even if your opponent can outmaneuver him and he never once gets to actually hit in close combat (Unlikely, given fleet and his +1" bonus,) he's a huge Distraction Carnifex, and will allow you to clear large areas of the board just by walking towards them. Really, really need that objective? Why, just walk towards it with ol' Rowboat, it'll clear away.

Martel732 wrote:
He's basically useless for BA. He doesn't fit in a pod, and then "what is this foot slogging you speak of?".

I'm going to be giving it a try this weekend. I face off against Crimson Fists allied with Cypher.

He doesn't really add much of anything to my Crimson Fists since I focus on Sternguard and they are already rerolling most shots anyway. He won't be able to get up to where the pods are landing either. Still, he might make a good back field threat.

I am looking at a setup to use Voldus, a squad of Terminators, and a Nemesis Dreadknight though.

In a vehicle heavy force, his ability to re roll pinning checks is pretty good.

Waaaghpower wrote:
He really helps out a ton of armies.

First off, anyone within 12" of him is going to benefit from his buffs. Assault armies love getting +1" on runs and charges, and re-rolling 1s to hit in combat. Shooty armies love re-rolling 1s to hit in shooting. His army-wide leadership buff isn't going to be that important for Power Armored guys, but it's still pretty darn useful.

On top of that, he's one hell of a beast himself. A lucky D shot or stomp attack is about the only way to really kill him for most armies, but he's scary - Even if your opponent can outmaneuver him and he never once gets to actually hit in close combat (Unlikely, given fleet and his +1" bonus,) he's a huge Distraction Carnifex, and will allow you to clear large areas of the board just by walking towards them. Really, really need that objective? Why, just walk towards it with ol' Rowboat, it'll clear away.

i guess it depends on what type of games you play. If your a tournament player, he is a complete joke. An extra inch run and charge is honestly, worthless. Re-rolls to shooting and hitting in comabt are standard in every marine lists because of doctrines, the leadership modifier stuff is garbage, hes tough but any shooting army will get 3-4 turns of firing on him, and he will NEVER see combat vs an eldar army (and i use themn as an example because 20% of the field in basically every tournament is eldar) unless the eldar player chooses to allow it to happen in order to trigger strength from death attacks.. His movement speed alone (and inability to join units), makes him a complete joke. In todays 40k, there is not a single 6 inch move MC that anybody considers good for a reason, this entire edition is based on movement, and he dont have it.

If your more into friendly type games, knock yourself out, but it might be best to not pretend hes a great model on the tabletop.

PyrhusOfEpirus wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
He really helps out a ton of armies.

First off, anyone within 12" of him is going to benefit from his buffs. Assault armies love getting +1" on runs and charges, and re-rolling 1s to hit in combat. Shooty armies love re-rolling 1s to hit in shooting. His army-wide leadership buff isn't going to be that important for Power Armored guys, but it's still pretty darn useful.

On top of that, he's one hell of a beast himself. A lucky D shot or stomp attack is about the only way to really kill him for most armies, but he's scary - Even if your opponent can outmaneuver him and he never once gets to actually hit in close combat (Unlikely, given fleet and his +1" bonus,) he's a huge Distraction Carnifex, and will allow you to clear large areas of the board just by walking towards them. Really, really need that objective? Why, just walk towards it with ol' Rowboat, it'll clear away.

i guess it depends on what type of games you play. If your a tournament player, he is a complete joke. An extra inch run and charge is honestly, worthless. Re-rolls to shooting and hitting in comabt are standard in every marine lists because of doctrines, the leadership modifier stuff is garbage, hes tough but any shooting army will get 3-4 turns of firing on him, and he will NEVER see combat vs an eldar army (and i use themn as an example because 20% of the field in basically every tournament is eldar) unless the eldar player chooses to allow it to happen in order to trigger strength from death attacks.. His movement speed alone (and inability to join units), makes him a complete joke. In todays 40k, there is not a single 6 inch move MC that anybody considers good for a reason, this entire edition is based on movement, and he dont have it.

If your more into friendly type games, knock yourself out, but it might be best to not pretend hes a great model on the tabletop.

So, you are saying that a model who will either tank 3-4 turns of fire from a shooty army, or who will otherwise be able to control your opponents movement by forcing them to run away from him, or who can protect and buff up gunlines - Not just Space Marine gunlines, mind, since it may surprise you to learn that there are Imperial armies outside of Space Marines - offers no tactical advantages whatsoever?
He's not going to be on the board in a vacuum.

Waaaghpower wrote:

PyrhusOfEpirus wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
He really helps out a ton of armies.

First off, anyone within 12" of him is going to benefit from his buffs. Assault armies love getting +1" on runs and charges, and re-rolling 1s to hit in combat. Shooty armies love re-rolling 1s to hit in shooting. His army-wide leadership buff isn't going to be that important for Power Armored guys, but it's still pretty darn useful.

On top of that, he's one hell of a beast himself. A lucky D shot or stomp attack is about the only way to really kill him for most armies, but he's scary - Even if your opponent can outmaneuver him and he never once gets to actually hit in close combat (Unlikely, given fleet and his +1" bonus,) he's a huge Distraction Carnifex, and will allow you to clear large areas of the board just by walking towards them. Really, really need that objective? Why, just walk towards it with ol' Rowboat, it'll clear away.

i guess it depends on what type of games you play. If your a tournament player, he is a complete joke. An extra inch run and charge is honestly, worthless. Re-rolls to shooting and hitting in comabt are standard in every marine lists because of doctrines, the leadership modifier stuff is garbage, hes tough but any shooting army will get 3-4 turns of firing on him, and he will NEVER see combat vs an eldar army (and i use themn as an example because 20% of the field in basically every tournament is eldar) unless the eldar player chooses to allow it to happen in order to trigger strength from death attacks.. His movement speed alone (and inability to join units), makes him a complete joke. In todays 40k, there is not a single 6 inch move MC that anybody considers good for a reason, this entire edition is based on movement, and he dont have it.

If your more into friendly type games, knock yourself out, but it might be best to not pretend hes a great model on the tabletop.

So, you are saying that a model who will either tank 3-4 turns of fire from a shooty army, or who will otherwise be able to control your opponents movement by forcing them to run away from him, or who can protect and buff up gunlines - Not just Space Marine gunlines, mind, since it may surprise you to learn that there are Imperial armies outside of Space Marines - offers no tactical advantages whatsoever?
He's not going to be on the board in a vacuum.

100% agree with Waaaghpower. Gulliman isn't competitive.

Waaaaghpower said the enemy will have 3-4 turns of firing at him. NOT that he will tank 3-4 turns worth of shooting. You can and will ignore him. He's too slow. Waaagh already pointed out the other moot points regarding his special rules. He is too slow and there is NO way of making him faster short of Shifting Worldscape and the swapping power. Which is great if they are legal to charge out of in your meta, but for the points, I'd rather go with Libby Conclave.

Any 18" threat range for maximum charge range is not board control, it's a turboboost in the opposite direction. Or a flat out. Or a Move-shoot-move. Or a jetpack. Or a simply 12" movement. It's a real stretch to say he will "be able to control your opponents movement". It's more the other way around. The enemy will lure you into the corner of the board and then leave you there. If you remain centrally located, I can ignore him and shoot the rest of your army.

crouching lictor wrote:
In a vehicle heavy force, his ability to re roll pinning checks is pretty good.

I'm afraid you are confusing pinning with penetration. RG doesn't do anything to vehicles.

The only way i see making Guilliman viable would be to put him in a fortification with some nasty guns on it. It's a lot of points but Guilliman in an Aquila Macro Cannon would require a response, but whoops, it's an assault building so here he comes. Enjoy BS6 x2 D large blasts which only miss the primary target completely on a roll of 11 or 12.

So if you have the ~900 points to spare that's one way to use him. :/

Other than that what good is a foot slogging model with a strength 6 assault 3 ap2 rending? Just ignore and avoid.

You could leverage AOD powers to move him but they're neutered or banned in most tournament formats anyway.

 Marmatag wrote:
The only way i see making Guilliman viable would be to put him in a fortification with some nasty guns on it. It's a lot of points but Guilliman in an Aquila Macro Cannon would require a response, but whoops, it's an assault building so here he comes. Enjoy BS6 x2 D large blasts which only miss the primary target completely on a roll of 11 or 12.

So if you have the ~900 points to spare that's one way to use him. :/

Other than that what good is a foot slogging model with a strength 6 assault 3 ap2 rending? Just ignore and avoid.

You could leverage AOD powers to move him but they're neutered or banned in most tournament formats anyway.

IIRC, only infantry can embark in fortifications/buildings. Monstrous Creatrues can't. If Gulliman was an infantry model some of his weaknesses would go away. Sadly, GW decided for him to be an MC.

Saythings wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

PyrhusOfEpirus wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
He really helps out a ton of armies.

First off, anyone within 12" of him is going to benefit from his buffs. Assault armies love getting +1" on runs and charges, and re-rolling 1s to hit in combat. Shooty armies love re-rolling 1s to hit in shooting. His army-wide leadership buff isn't going to be that important for Power Armored guys, but it's still pretty darn useful.

On top of that, he's one hell of a beast himself. A lucky D shot or stomp attack is about the only way to really kill him for most armies, but he's scary - Even if your opponent can outmaneuver him and he never once gets to actually hit in close combat (Unlikely, given fleet and his +1" bonus,) he's a huge Distraction Carnifex, and will allow you to clear large areas of the board just by walking towards them. Really, really need that objective? Why, just walk towards it with ol' Rowboat, it'll clear away.

i guess it depends on what type of games you play. If your a tournament player, he is a complete joke. An extra inch run and charge is honestly, worthless. Re-rolls to shooting and hitting in comabt are standard in every marine lists because of doctrines, the leadership modifier stuff is garbage, hes tough but any shooting army will get 3-4 turns of firing on him, and he will NEVER see combat vs an eldar army (and i use themn as an example because 20% of the field in basically every tournament is eldar) unless the eldar player chooses to allow it to happen in order to trigger strength from death attacks.. His movement speed alone (and inability to join units), makes him a complete joke. In todays 40k, there is not a single 6 inch move MC that anybody considers good for a reason, this entire edition is based on movement, and he dont have it.

If your more into friendly type games, knock yourself out, but it might be best to not pretend hes a great model on the tabletop.

So, you are saying that a model who will either tank 3-4 turns of fire from a shooty army, or who will otherwise be able to control your opponents movement by forcing them to run away from him, or who can protect and buff up gunlines - Not just Space Marine gunlines, mind, since it may surprise you to learn that there are Imperial armies outside of Space Marines - offers no tactical advantages whatsoever?
He's not going to be on the board in a vacuum.

100% agree with Waaaghpower. Gulliman isn't competitive.

Waaaaghpower said the enemy will have 3-4 turns of firing at him. NOT that he will tank 3-4 turns worth of shooting. You can and will ignore him. He's too slow. Waaagh already pointed out the other moot points regarding his special rules. He is too slow and there is NO way of making him faster short of Shifting Worldscape and the swapping power. Which is great if they are legal to charge out of in your meta, but for the points, I'd rather go with Libby Conclave.

Any 18" threat range for maximum charge range is not board control, it's a turboboost in the opposite direction. Or a flat out. Or a Move-shoot-move. Or a jetpack. Or a simply 12" movement. It's a real stretch to say he will "be able to control your opponents movement". It's more the other way around. The enemy will lure you into the corner of the board and then leave you there. If you remain centrally located, I can ignore him and shoot the rest of your army.

I think you mean you agree with me. Waghpower thinks roboute is good

Saythings wrote:

100% agree with Waaaghpower. Gulliman isn't competitive.

Waaaaghpower said the enemy will have 3-4 turns of firing at him. NOT that he will tank 3-4 turns worth of shooting. You can and will ignore him. He's too slow. Waaagh already pointed out the other moot points regarding his special rules. He is too slow and there is NO way of making him faster short of Shifting Worldscape and the swapping power. Which is great if they are legal to charge out of in your meta, but for the points, I'd rather go with Libby Conclave.

Any 18" threat range for maximum charge range is not board control, it's a turboboost in the opposite direction. Or a flat out. Or a Move-shoot-move. Or a jetpack. Or a simply 12" movement. It's a real stretch to say he will "be able to control your opponents movement". It's more the other way around. The enemy will lure you into the corner of the board and then leave you there. If you remain centrally located, I can ignore him and shoot the rest of your army.

Well, me and PyrhusOfEpirus agree on one thing: You got our names mixed up.

If the enemy fires at Guilliman for 3-4 turns, then he clearly didn't die prior to those turns - He tanked the shooting for those turns. That's literally the definition of what happened.

Also, I'm going to point out: This is the tactics discussion for 40k, not for your LGS house rules or any other set of homebrew additions. It's a minor point, but he absolutely can charge after using Shifting Worldscape or the swapping power.

A 36" bubble absolutely is board control when you are playing a game where holding objectives is an important thing to do. Unless you only play Purge the Alien, being able to stand within reaching distance of several objectives and deny access to those objectives without losing the unit grabbing it is a very, very useful thing. 'Board control' doesn't have to mean controlling the entire board, it just means controlling the part of the board that's important. (Also: It's a 19" threat range for maximum charge, and thanks to fleet and his +1" it's a 16" average.)

You also seem to assume that the player using Guilliman (Me, I suppose) is an idiot, for some reason? You say "The enemy will lure you into the corner of the board and then leave you there", but why exactly would I fall for a really obvious lure? I'm not a moron, and I'm not going to try and run down jetbikes with Guilliman, because when I play Warhammer 40k I like to use tactics, and not just blindly attack with whatever I happen to have.

Because, in the end, being able to kill things won't win you the game unless you can table your opponent. 11/12 mission types involve holding objectives. In a Maelstrom game, unless you get an extremely one-sided set of Maelstrom cards, holding objectives is going to get you at least as many victory points as everything else you do. In an Eternal War mission, holding objectives is pretty much the entire game - The only difference is the placement and variety of those relics, and any special rules that might end up as a tiebreaker like in 'Big Guns Never Tire.'


As I said in my first post, if you need an objective really, really badly, he will pretty much guarantee that you have it, because there's only a tiny number of units in the game that can beat him in a straight fistfight, and most of those cost at least twice his points. Being able to grab an objective can very, very easily tip the scales in a game. (Or, forcing your opponent to dedicate fire into him and ignore the rest of your army to free up that objective can ALSO very easily tip the scales in a game.)


So no, Guilliman is not a point-and-shoot unit that you can use blindly to win every game. That doesn't make him bad, or even mediocre, though, it just means you need to be able to employ basic tactics on the board. Once you can do that, he's pretty good.

Wait, a 36" board control range?

It's just 19"

 gummyofallbears wrote:
Wait, a 36" board control range?

It's just 19"

It's 19" in each direction from his position.

I'm looking forward to putting him on the table. I'm deploying him with a Gladius and a small CAD. I think he'll do fine controlling the center of the board and smart objective placement will help him out.

Waaaghpower wrote:

Saythings wrote:

100% agree with Waaaghpower. Gulliman isn't competitive.

Waaaaghpower said the enemy will have 3-4 turns of firing at him. NOT that he will tank 3-4 turns worth of shooting. You can and will ignore him. He's too slow. Waaagh already pointed out the other moot points regarding his special rules. He is too slow and there is NO way of making him faster short of Shifting Worldscape and the swapping power. Which is great if they are legal to charge out of in your meta, but for the points, I'd rather go with Libby Conclave.

Any 18" threat range for maximum charge range is not board control, it's a turboboost in the opposite direction. Or a flat out. Or a Move-shoot-move. Or a jetpack. Or a simply 12" movement. It's a real stretch to say he will "be able to control your opponents movement". It's more the other way around. The enemy will lure you into the corner of the board and then leave you there. If you remain centrally located, I can ignore him and shoot the rest of your army.

Well, me and PyrhusOfEpirus agree on one thing: You got our names mixed up.

If the enemy fires at Guilliman for 3-4 turns, then he clearly didn't die prior to those turns - He tanked the shooting for those turns. That's literally the definition of what happened.

Also, I'm going to point out: This is the tactics discussion for 40k, not for your LGS house rules or any other set of homebrew additions. It's a minor point, but he absolutely can charge after using Shifting Worldscape or the swapping power.

A 36" bubble absolutely is board control when you are playing a game where holding objectives is an important thing to do. Unless you only play Purge the Alien, being able to stand within reaching distance of several objectives and deny access to those objectives without losing the unit grabbing it is a very, very useful thing. 'Board control' doesn't have to mean controlling the entire board, it just means controlling the part of the board that's important. (Also: It's a 19" threat range for maximum charge, and thanks to fleet and his +1" it's a 16" average.)

You also seem to assume that the player using Guilliman (Me, I suppose) is an idiot, for some reason? You say "The enemy will lure you into the corner of the board and then leave you there", but why exactly would I fall for a really obvious lure? I'm not a moron, and I'm not going to try and run down jetbikes with Guilliman, because when I play Warhammer 40k I like to use tactics, and not just blindly attack with whatever I happen to have.

Because, in the end, being able to kill things won't win you the game unless you can table your opponent. 11/12 mission types involve holding objectives. In a Maelstrom game, unless you get an extremely one-sided set of Maelstrom cards, holding objectives is going to get you at least as many victory points as everything else you do. In an Eternal War mission, holding objectives is pretty much the entire game - The only difference is the placement and variety of those relics, and any special rules that might end up as a tiebreaker like in 'Big Guns Never Tire.'


As I said in my first post, if you need an objective really, really badly, he will pretty much guarantee that you have it, because there's only a tiny number of units in the game that can beat him in a straight fistfight, and most of those cost at least twice his points. Being able to grab an objective can very, very easily tip the scales in a game. (Or, forcing your opponent to dedicate fire into him and ignore the rest of your army to free up that objective can ALSO very easily tip the scales in a game.)


So no, Guilliman is not a point-and-shoot unit that you can use blindly to win every game. That doesn't make him bad, or even mediocre, though, it just means you need to be able to employ basic tactics on the board. Once you can do that, he's pretty good.

Lol. To each his own.

I suppose I should have said a 38" bubble, but whatever.

Anyways. I'm not saying he's god-level ultimate cheese. He's not. He's *pretty good*, though, and provides plenty of utility and options for his cost.

I have to concur, I don't see how he's BAD. I mean, he's not a no-brainer always take this kind of thing. But if you want to take him, you will get some pretty good benefits.

Take Nova missions in competitive play for example, heavily objective based.

RG is too slow to threaten opponents back field objectives and neither can he chase down units to earn his points (without fulmination powers). His 24" AP2 3 shot cannon surely isn't gonna earn his points back in shooting.

Aside from the relic mission, where you can just camp him on the relic, he is really only good for protecting your own backfield and your gun line units. In highly competitive play, that is not good enough for 350 pts

In 2-3 turns he can be sitting in his opponents deployment zone on one of their objectives. Are you going to stay near that Obj so he can charge you??

With regards to nova missions having him pushing towards an objective means you have to deal with him or lose points.

At the same time The gladius part of the army will be maneuvering around the table getting the points as required.

I will frankly be surprised if he is not in several successful tournament builds.

for the points what he is/does is amazing and every xenos player out there wishes they had a MC that does what he does for the points except maybe eldr with the undercosted WK

I think the tournament missions would decide if he is good in there or not.

I play DA to and have been trying to figure out a way to use him. Seriously considering throwing him in a small CAD and then running a Ravenwing Strike Force with Black Knights, Attack Bikes, Dark Shorud, etc. I wasn't sure how well they would complement each other but everything would be pretty survivable with plenty of fast moving units to make up for having to waddle Guilliman across the board.

Edit:

Maybe throw in a Ravenwing Support Squardon for some intercept to give Guilliman a little cover.

Did mix the names up! Haha. But yah, Gulliman is silly bad! xD

Edit: I'll add a "IMO" at the end of 'silly bad'. I just don't see him getting top tables in tournaments. And my opinions stem purely off of GT play, not casual or local tournaments.

I'm not saying anyone is wrong with their own opinion, I just would never suggest to anyone that he's worth purchasing and playing in an optimized list.

Also, I really don't think he's as bad as people make out. Like, compare him to an IK Gallant (which Guilliman can one shot). I run those all the time with my DA Lion's Blade and really have no issues getting them into CC by turn 2 or 3 max. Granted they can move faster but Guilliman does what they do better, is more durable, and buffs the army more (which the IK doesn't).

Giving up some movement for all he brings to the table for only 350 points (where the IK Gallant is 325 base) is fine by me. I mean honestly, if you want to shoot your whole army at my 1 model go for it. I have plenty of other models to take advantage of that.

He's not game breaking but he's definitely not silly bad.

@Saythings and no worries, at least from me. Unfortunately, thanks to the army and kids I don't get to go to GTs haha, so my opinion is based off of local ITC tournaments and what not although some of those guys can be cut throat. As far as the GT seen and fully optimized, no bs list, I think he has his place. I'm not sure where it is. I think you'd have to play smart with him and not think you can just run him up the middle to ROFL stomp people.

 ILegion wrote:
I play DA to and have been trying to figure out a way to use him. Seriously considering throwing him in a small CAD and then running a Ravenwing Strike Force with Black Knights, Attack Bikes, Dark Shorud, etc. I wasn't sure how well they would complement each other but everything would be pretty survivable with plenty of fast moving units to make up for having to waddle Guilliman across the board.

Edit:

Maybe throw in a Ravenwing Support Squardon for some intercept to give Guilliman a little cover.

These sound like good ideas and a lot like what I was planning for him in my own DA army. If I could find the points I'd run a Lion's Blade and a CAD with him in it, rerolling 1's to hit would be great (especially since DA don't get the Doctrines like other marines do).