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So myself and a number of gamers at my FLGS are working to shift the meta to a more relaxed environment. We can't tell people what to do or demand they play a certain way. So we instead are doing the following:
Our shop has 40k 1 night a week.
1 night a month is Highlander night where, if you want to participate, your list cannot have more than 1 of any unit. Some exceptions exist for troop choices and armies that have only 1 unit in a slot (example SOB troops)
No LOW options allowed unless games are 1850 or higher. No formations allowed either. CADs only. No allies. Some other rules exist as well.

Another night during the month, we're going to play narrative campaigns using the various campaign books. again if people want to participate their lists are going to be subjected to scenario rules that are intended to drive the narrative.

I've proposed that for the handful of times a year where the month has a 5th gaming night that month, we play some sort of apocalypse game where players that want to participate have to bring the largest, most expensive unit or 2 they can field - the intent being to get everyone to bring some sort of Super heavy or gargantuan creature or 2.

The other 2 nights in the month are effectively open to 1850 regular games.

We're hoping that if we show that you can have fun just messing around and not aiming to field competitive lists that you can indeed have a good time without power gaming / WAAC.

Has anyone else attempted this? Do you want your shop meta to change? How do these suggestions sound?

It's not a bad variety of game types. The major game changer is going to be attitude. If the people in the store are cut throat WAAC and "paint your models or I won't play with you" then you will foster that type of environment.

If you can get the people in the store the majority of the time to be more beer and pretzels style just have some fun then it will set the tone for anyone else who walks in.

Thats the important thing. Set the tone.

Our group rates lists from 1 to 5. If we agree to 2/5 game day then everyone brings something fluffy and/or something with lower power level. Works fine with experienced players. Usually there is someone to inspect lists before the games too.

You could try doing smaller point single CAD, but with additional restrictions.

For example,

1250 point game
Single CAD
Maximum 200 points on HQ
Maximum 200 points on Fast Attack
Maximum 200 points on Heavy Support
Maximum 250 points lord of war
Maximum 250 points on elites

Dedicated transports don't count towards these costs.

Characters that do not occupy a force org slot don't count towards these costs.

I mean it's possible to power game and break anything. I would just suggest you create a format where people have the freedom to do what they want, so you don't get, "wow it's casual night and you brought THAT, wow, ok."

I don't like the CAD only rule. It makes it so certain armies are literally unplayable due to not having HQs or Troops.

Naaris wrote:
We can't tell people what to do or demand they play a certain way...

if you want to participate, your list cannot...

Some other rules exist as well...

Uh, that sounds exactly like telling people what to do / demanding they play a certain way. The only difference is that you're excluding them from the group, rather than from an individual matchup.

I know it sounds good in theory, but I can bring a Screamer-Star in that setup. Can bring Kairos with it. I can spam magic, run a S-S and there is nothing that many lists can do about a unit that won't die. I don't need duplicates, Formations, or anything. So it sounds good in theory. But I took literally the time needed to post to break it. And sadly, despite your efforts, you'll get that.

One thing to do, if you are doing prize support.

Don't give prizes for placing, but focus them on sportsmanship and painting

Hell even a wooden spoon one works as well

takes the focus away from being the guy winning all the games

Eldar CAD's are already broken compared to many other armies in the game, putting restrictions on the other armies so that now they can't retaliate in kind is not a recipe for success, now it's just become even more "play eldar or lose" than it was before. Marines can still be white scars in scouting rhinos with grav cannons, but now other armies can't bring sufficient things to deal with them, nor an allied inquisitor to plop some servo skulls down to stop them being in salvo range turn 1.

If you want to change the meta, don't play against d-bags who bring broken lists against fluffbunny lists and instead play against others who think like you do. Either the WAAC players play amongst themselves and everyone is happy, they self regulate and come join you to get games and most people are sufficiently happy or you guys play amongst yourselves and don't have to deal with tournament level cheese (and are mostly happy). They aren't nessecarily wrong to play their way, it's just how they have fun, same as you guys. If they can have their fun and you can have your fun, everybody wins.

Xca|iber wrote:

Naaris wrote:
We can't tell people what to do or demand they play a certain way...

if you want to participate, your list cannot...

Some other rules exist as well...

Uh, that sounds exactly like telling people what to do / demanding they play a certain way. The only difference is that you're excluding them from the group, rather than from an individual matchup.

timetowaste85 wrote:I know it sounds good in theory, but I can bring a Screamer-Star in that setup. Can bring Kairos with it. I can spam magic, run a S-S and there is nothing that many lists can do about a unit that won't die. I don't need duplicates, Formations, or anything. So it sounds good in theory. But I took literally the time needed to post to break it. And sadly, despite your efforts, you'll get that.

These.

Unfortunately the mood of the group will really depend on the individuals in it. Even with restrictions, you are not going to make repressed or frustrated people more relaxed. They will still make the environment pretty intense.

One reason I quitted wargaming at the time was that many people were just too much and the environment was pretty toxic. For them winning was the most important part and bad mood for losing and very loud arguments for rules interpretation were a given. The issue was mostly with WHFB, 40k games were way more relaxed cause at the time in my area was not so big as today. Consider that these people were adults, but there were also several kids in the club watching all this (I was one of the kids).

Luckily, not all the people were like that, and some were kind and enjoyed playing fluffy and/or friendly. They were a minority tho.

I believe the only solution for this kind of situation is about the player having accomplishments and a life outside of wargaming. Possibly an happy life even. Then maybe they will understand it's just a game and enjoy the social and fun side of it.

I really wish you good luck in making your environment less toxic.

Edit: What I mean is that if the players attitude is good even a competitive environment can be relaxed and chilled.

Restrictions don't realky help, the key is to make the incentive system, implicit or explicit, match up with what you're trying to achieve. I actually would like to see my area's meta get more competitive.

I would like to say my local meta has had a rude wakeup call and this sort of thing has started to filter in.

We started using the ITC rules for local tournaments from early last year - largely cause the existing approach of no LoW, no Formations, no Decurions basically penalised certain armies harder than others.

As predicted, for a local meta that was very casual and fluff based (hell, on of the founding members of the group is a senior member of Vague and they're known in the Student Nationals for their approach being fun based) it quickly went downhill. Suddenly we started seeing Corsairs and Ad-Mech Convocations. Suffice to say 'fun' quickly became hyper competitive.

To the point where I even had a falling out with them - apparently conceding games where their Turn 1 Alpha Strike list of Convocation with grav-spam, Culexus and Coteaz seizes and wipes out 2/3rds of my army before I can do a thing affected other people's fun. To the point where they refused to let me participate in a local tournament that followed.

Kind of glad though.

That local Tournament had someone from out of town show up with 7 Riptides at 1400 points. And they pitched a fit over that.

Meanwhile over here I'm shaking my head and laughing. You want to go down the hyper competitive route of Corsairs and Convocations? That's what you're going to end up with. You want to run bigger super competitive events? That's what you are going to end up with. Where every army from each faction is identical, copy-paste net lists.

I've started working on my own rule set to pitch for an event (which has a comp score and committee score) and it seems they've decided to use some of that in a coming event (which my being able to attend is pending behaviour at the charity event next weekend).

And for my 'soft' list.

Rules for Force Comp are as follows.

No duplicate units except for troops/transports.
No named characters
No super heavies
No D weapons
No free units/upgrades
Max 1 summon per turn
Max 5 psyker levels
No 2+ cover (defaults to 3+)
No re-rollable saves
No improved overwatch

My personal fluff list for that?

Death Guard.

Chaos Lord (1) - 172pts
1 Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour: Combi-melta,Lightning claw,Mark of Nurgle,Gift of mutation,Blight grenades,Dolorous Knell,Veterans of the Long War

Sorcerer (1) - 145pts
1 Sorcerer: Frag and krak grenades,Force weapon,Bolt pistol,Psyker (Mastery Level 3),Mark of Nurgle,Aura of dark glory,Blight grenades,Veterans of the Long War

Plague Marines (7) - 223pts Veterans of the Long War
1 Plague Champion: Champion of Chaos,Bolt pistol,Boltgun,Power fist
2 Plague Marine: Plague knife,Plasma gun,Bolt pistol
4 Plague Marine: Plague knife,Boltgun,Bolt pistol

Chaos Rhino (1) - 50pts Dedicated Transport
1 Chaos Rhino: Combi-bolter,Dirge caster,Extra armour

Plague Marines (7) - 223pts Veterans of the Long War
1 Plague Champion: Champion of Chaos,Power fist,Boltgun,Plague knife
2 Plague Marine: Plague knife,Plasma gun,Bolt pistol
4 Plague Marine: Plague knife,Boltgun,Bolt pistol

Chaos Rhino (1) - 50pts Dedicated Transport
1 Chaos Rhino: Combi-bolter,Dirge caster,Extra armour

Chaos Terminators (7) - 337pts Mark of NurgleVeterans of the Long War
1 Terminator Champion: Combi-bolter,Power weapon
1 Chaos Terminator: Reaper autocannon,Chainfist
1 Chaos Terminator: Combi-flamer,Chainfist
1 Chaos Terminator: Combi-flamer,Power weapon
1 Chaos Terminator: Combi-bolter,Lightning claw
2 Chaos Terminator: Pair of lightning claws

Chaos Spawn (3) - 108pts Mark of Nurgle
3 Chaos Spawn

Havocs (7) - 189pts Mark of NurgleVeterans of the Long War
1 Aspiring Champion: Champion of Chaos,Power weapon,Bolt pistol,Boltgun
4 Havoc: Autocannon,Bolt pistol,Close combat weapon
2 Havoc: Boltgun,Bolt pistol,Close combat weapon

Using a CAD. 7 units total (Lord, Sorcerer, Terminators, 2 PM squads, Spawn, Havocs), 7 strong in each apart from the spawn who are 3 strong.

Count the Seven.

The only change that might come about is me dropping the Plasma Guns in the Plague Marine squads for Melta Guns.

Ok, so one thing that I don't understand is this:

if there is a number of you who want to play with different attitude, just why won't you? I mean if you are already open to playing narrative scenarios from campaign books, then after gaining enough experience with asymetric scenarios you can easily write endless more yourself and have endless fun in 40K with those few like-minded guys. Completely independent from WAAC competetive crowd. And narrative/campaign/asymetric scenarios have one underestimated advantage over "standard ITC tournament missions on fair terrain" - they are realy non-repetetive experience, even within a very small group and with limited factions/models availability.

You can get it "moving faster" by playing low point games for the first months and do side-switched replays of any given scenario (either army switched or just "scenario role" switched), even in a single day. And by actively "performing" engaging and enjoyable games before other FLGS dwellers you might just "shift the meta" by social "gravity" towards your type of play.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Death Guard.

Chaos Lord (1) - 172pts
1 Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour: Combi-melta,Lightning claw,Mark of Nurgle,Gift of mutation,Blight grenades,Dolorous Knell,Veterans of the Long War

Sorcerer (1) - 145pts
1 Sorcerer: Frag and krak grenades,Force weapon,Bolt pistol,Psyker (Mastery Level 3),Mark of Nurgle,Aura of dark glory,Blight grenades,Veterans of the Long War

Plague Marines (7) - 223pts Veterans of the Long War
1 Plague Champion: Champion of Chaos,Bolt pistol,Boltgun,Power fist
2 Plague Marine: Plague knife,Plasma gun,Bolt pistol
4 Plague Marine: Plague knife,Boltgun,Bolt pistol

Chaos Rhino (1) - 50pts Dedicated Transport
1 Chaos Rhino: Combi-bolter,Dirge caster,Extra armour

Plague Marines (7) - 223pts Veterans of the Long War
1 Plague Champion: Champion of Chaos,Power fist,Boltgun,Plague knife
2 Plague Marine: Plague knife,Plasma gun,Bolt pistol
4 Plague Marine: Plague knife,Boltgun,Bolt pistol

Chaos Rhino (1) - 50pts Dedicated Transport
1 Chaos Rhino: Combi-bolter,Dirge caster,Extra armour

Chaos Terminators (7) - 337pts Mark of NurgleVeterans of the Long War
1 Terminator Champion: Combi-bolter,Power weapon
1 Chaos Terminator: Reaper autocannon,Chainfist
1 Chaos Terminator: Combi-flamer,Chainfist
1 Chaos Terminator: Combi-flamer,Power weapon
1 Chaos Terminator: Combi-bolter,Lightning claw
2 Chaos Terminator: Pair of lightning claws

Chaos Spawn (3) - 108pts Mark of Nurgle
3 Chaos Spawn

Havocs (7) - 189pts Mark of NurgleVeterans of the Long War
1 Aspiring Champion: Champion of Chaos,Power weapon,Bolt pistol,Boltgun
4 Havoc: Autocannon,Bolt pistol,Close combat weapon
2 Havoc: Boltgun,Bolt pistol,Close combat weapon

Using a CAD. 7 units total (Lord, Sorcerer, Terminators, 2 PM squads, Spawn, Havocs), 7 strong in each apart from the spawn who are 3 strong.

Count the Seven.

The only change that might come about is me dropping the Plasma Guns in the Plague Marine squads for Melta Guns.

Are you paying for your VOTLW? or are you giving it to them as a Free Upgrade?

GodDamUser wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Death Guard.

Chaos Lord (1) - 172pts
1 Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour: Combi-melta,Lightning claw,Mark of Nurgle,Gift of mutation,Blight grenades,Dolorous Knell,Veterans of the Long War

Sorcerer (1) - 145pts
1 Sorcerer: Frag and krak grenades,Force weapon,Bolt pistol,Psyker (Mastery Level 3),Mark of Nurgle,Aura of dark glory,Blight grenades,Veterans of the Long War

Plague Marines (7) - 223pts Veterans of the Long War
1 Plague Champion: Champion of Chaos,Bolt pistol,Boltgun,Power fist
2 Plague Marine: Plague knife,Plasma gun,Bolt pistol
4 Plague Marine: Plague knife,Boltgun,Bolt pistol

Chaos Rhino (1) - 50pts Dedicated Transport
1 Chaos Rhino: Combi-bolter,Dirge caster,Extra armour

Plague Marines (7) - 223pts Veterans of the Long War
1 Plague Champion: Champion of Chaos,Power fist,Boltgun,Plague knife
2 Plague Marine: Plague knife,Plasma gun,Bolt pistol
4 Plague Marine: Plague knife,Boltgun,Bolt pistol

Chaos Rhino (1) - 50pts Dedicated Transport
1 Chaos Rhino: Combi-bolter,Dirge caster,Extra armour

Chaos Terminators (7) - 337pts Mark of NurgleVeterans of the Long War
1 Terminator Champion: Combi-bolter,Power weapon
1 Chaos Terminator: Reaper autocannon,Chainfist
1 Chaos Terminator: Combi-flamer,Chainfist
1 Chaos Terminator: Combi-flamer,Power weapon
1 Chaos Terminator: Combi-bolter,Lightning claw
2 Chaos Terminator: Pair of lightning claws

Chaos Spawn (3) - 108pts Mark of Nurgle
3 Chaos Spawn

Havocs (7) - 189pts Mark of NurgleVeterans of the Long War
1 Aspiring Champion: Champion of Chaos,Power weapon,Bolt pistol,Boltgun
4 Havoc: Autocannon,Bolt pistol,Close combat weapon
2 Havoc: Boltgun,Bolt pistol,Close combat weapon

Using a CAD. 7 units total (Lord, Sorcerer, Terminators, 2 PM squads, Spawn, Havocs), 7 strong in each apart from the spawn who are 3 strong.

Count the Seven.

The only change that might come about is me dropping the Plasma Guns in the Plague Marine squads for Melta Guns.

Are you paying for your VOTLW? or are you giving it to them as a Free Upgrade?

Would be as per Traitor Legions. Certain things are slipping through - to be fair, VotLW is CSM's equivalent of ATSKNF - we should have been getting that for free in the base Codex and I don't think anyone out there will dispute that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Death Guard.

Chaos Lord (1) - 172pts
1 Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour: Combi-melta,Lightning claw,Mark of Nurgle,Gift of mutation,Blight grenades,Dolorous Knell,Veterans of the Long War

Sorcerer (1) - 145pts
1 Sorcerer: Frag and krak grenades,Force weapon,Bolt pistol,Psyker (Mastery Level 3),Mark of Nurgle,Aura of dark glory,Blight grenades,Veterans of the Long War

Plague Marines (7) - 223pts Veterans of the Long War
1 Plague Champion: Champion of Chaos,Bolt pistol,Boltgun,Power fist
2 Plague Marine: Plague knife,Plasma gun,Bolt pistol
4 Plague Marine: Plague knife,Boltgun,Bolt pistol

Chaos Rhino (1) - 50pts Dedicated Transport
1 Chaos Rhino: Combi-bolter,Dirge caster,Extra armour

Plague Marines (7) - 223pts Veterans of the Long War
1 Plague Champion: Champion of Chaos,Power fist,Boltgun,Plague knife
2 Plague Marine: Plague knife,Plasma gun,Bolt pistol
4 Plague Marine: Plague knife,Boltgun,Bolt pistol

Chaos Rhino (1) - 50pts Dedicated Transport
1 Chaos Rhino: Combi-bolter,Dirge caster,Extra armour

Chaos Terminators (7) - 337pts Mark of NurgleVeterans of the Long War
1 Terminator Champion: Combi-bolter,Power weapon
1 Chaos Terminator: Reaper autocannon,Chainfist
1 Chaos Terminator: Combi-flamer,Chainfist
1 Chaos Terminator: Combi-flamer,Power weapon
1 Chaos Terminator: Combi-bolter,Lightning claw
2 Chaos Terminator: Pair of lightning claws

Chaos Spawn (3) - 108pts Mark of Nurgle
3 Chaos Spawn

Havocs (7) - 189pts Mark of NurgleVeterans of the Long War
1 Aspiring Champion: Champion of Chaos,Power weapon,Bolt pistol,Boltgun
4 Havoc: Autocannon,Bolt pistol,Close combat weapon
2 Havoc: Boltgun,Bolt pistol,Close combat weapon

Using a CAD. 7 units total (Lord, Sorcerer, Terminators, 2 PM squads, Spawn, Havocs), 7 strong in each apart from the spawn who are 3 strong.

Count the Seven.

The only change that might come about is me dropping the Plasma Guns in the Plague Marine squads for Melta Guns.

Are you paying for your VOTLW? or are you giving it to them as a Free Upgrade?

Would be as per Traitor Legions. Certain things are slipping through - to be fair, VotLW is CSM's equivalent of ATSKNF - we should have been getting that for free in the base Codex and I don't think anyone out there will dispute that to be honest.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Would be as per Traitor Legions. Certain things are slipping through - to be fair, VotLW is CSM's equivalent of ATSKNF - we should have been getting that for free in the base Codex and I don't think anyone out there will dispute that.

Pretty sure I just did =D

And letting in some exceptions could lead to potential for others to come through

But really imo restrictions are bad and tend to only hurt the people playing for fun, as anyone who is WAAC will find a way around the restrictions and game it for maximum advantage. I know when I see restrictions the first thing I do is try to think of the most broken thing I can do with them (even though I don't intend to go with it)

The main thing is to push the focus away from getting top spot and to communicate that it is a friendly event.

Honestly, it would take about twenty minutes for your restrictions to be flayed apart and turned into liquid. Don't do it. Just say no to games against dickbags.

I don't like the cad only rule either as I've got an army and I'm working on an army, both themed, that simply cannot work anymore in cad. Unbound with no special rules I'd be fine with, just not being shoehorned into having units that go against my entire army theme. Discussing it beforehand with the other person is likely a good way to both have an enjoyable game too. Then just knowing the playerbase in your area and playing with the ones similar to you; like some people enjoy that competitive style of game, let them play together instead of trying to push casual style play on them otherwise you push people out of the group. Same with when they go too competitive and push the people who want fluffy themed games into that style as well. Pick up games are about compromising so both sides have an enjoyable game.

Changing attitudes is a very hard thing to do. As nou said, if there is already a number of you that want to play casual then just play each other. If the more hardcore players want in they can curb their play style or stick with the other hardcore players. I would think hardcore players would prefer not to game if it wasn't going to be a challenge. Unless they are the kind of player that wants stroke their ego by crushing noobs which isn't a loss of a player anyways.

I completely agree with the suggestion on prize support. If you hitch that to winning and losing, you are actively encouraging WAAC/ultra-competitive/hardcore playing. Prizes should be the carrot to the behavior you want to foster.

As for campaigns, I really like add rubber band effects to make them more interesting for all players as opposed to the usual strong-get-stronger ones. Something like a player gets 10% more points to spend on their list for every lost they have. Narratively, it is the faction diverting more resources to ensure securing the mission which is clearly more difficult that originally expected.

I find this method keeps the weaker/bad luck players remaining a threat throughout the campaign. They are also a real challenge for anyone to remain undefeated as they could be facing an army with a 1/3 or more points to work with. This usually keeps the players with poor win/loss ratios around as they have a much better change of getting their vengeance or really dominating at least a game or two and putting at least a couple of W's in their column.

In my FLGS, there is one super comp player, but he is really chill and will ONLY use his super cheese lists against other cheese lists (we agree on points/formations/armies before games) and he will take the time to explain how things work and how to stop it. A rarity in this day and age!

The usual is anything goes, but it's considered VERY poor sportsmanship to rock up with a super spam cheese list without telling your opponent, as no one wants to be insta wrecked in 1-2 turns.

Funnily enough, I was told that one member was denied games for a whole month for breaking the above gentleman's agreements a fair few times. The straw that broke the camels back was when a really new player asked for a 500pts game to help him learn and the dick turns up with his Tau, and 2 RIPTIDES.

Needless to say, he was blacklisted for games until he learnt to not be a complete WAAC arse.

Naaris wrote:
So myself and a number of gamers at my FLGS are working to shift the meta to a more relaxed environment. We can't tell people what to do or demand they play a certain way. So we instead are doing the following:
Our shop has 40k 1 night a week.
1 night a month is Highlander night where, if you want to participate, your list cannot have more than 1 of any unit. Some exceptions exist for troop choices and armies that have only 1 unit in a slot (example SOB troops)
No LOW options allowed unless games are 1850 or higher. No formations allowed either. CADs only. No allies. Some other rules exist as well.

Another night during the month, we're going to play narrative campaigns using the various campaign books. again if people want to participate their lists are going to be subjected to scenario rules that are intended to drive the narrative.

I've proposed that for the handful of times a year where the month has a 5th gaming night that month, we play some sort of apocalypse game where players that want to participate have to bring the largest, most expensive unit or 2 they can field - the intent being to get everyone to bring some sort of Super heavy or gargantuan creature or 2.

The other 2 nights in the month are effectively open to 1850 regular games.

We're hoping that if we show that you can have fun just messing around and not aiming to field competitive lists that you can indeed have a good time without power gaming / WAAC.

Has anyone else attempted this? Do you want your shop meta to change? How do these suggestions sound?

You wont get the meta to change, you will simply have a "fun" style game night once a week (which is fine). Tournament players want to play competative games and fluff players want fluff games. At my club, i simply bring 2 lists, my tournament list and my fun game list, i pull out whatever is proper for the game at hand. I simply got sick/bored of showing up and blasting an unprepared opponent off the table (i play eldar so its pretty easy to do), my time is more important to me than winning a game in the list phase.

I feel even a bit guilty for showing up to a 1000pt game (may have been 1250) with a basic bloodthirster, one tzeentch herald and like 6 screamers with him, three Slaanesh chariots and a couple units of horrors and a unit of fiends. Could I have fit fateweaver and maxed the screamer star? Yup. But I didn't. And I still lost only a chariot and a fiend and a few horrors. Granted, my 'thirster did most of the work. But the screamers still couldn't die and just rammed things. And I hid them when they failed their grimoire. Had no cursed earth or anything to give them 2++ and they still went crazy. Such things...no place in a friendly game. And the fact that I could have made the list FAR nastier without using any formations...just wow.

DarkStarSabre wrote:
Rules for Force Comp are as follows.

No duplicate units except for troops/transports.
No named characters
No super heavies
No D weapons
No free units/upgrades
Max 1 summon per turn
Max 5 psyker levels
No 2+ cover (defaults to 3+)
No re-rollable saves
No improved overwatch

So running RW bikes screws me because I'm paying extra points for rules that don't apply, not that it matters since I now can't run a RW army anyways since they aren't troops? And no RW means I can't run my DW, because without guaranteed arrival terminators go from bad to superbad. But now I'm remembering I can only run 1 unit of termies anyways, so now I probably don't have enough points to make an 1850 list using your restrictions because I don't use tacticals.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Would be as per Traitor Legions. Certain things are slipping through - to be fair, VotLW is CSM's equivalent of ATSKNF - we should have been getting that for free in the base Codex and I don't think anyone out there will dispute that to be honest.

I don't think anyone will dispute that black knights should only be 30 points apiece if they don't have a rerollable save

My point being restrictions are always bad, because they hurt the players that want to bring fun lists without actually hurting the WAAC players that'll find a way to game whatever system you put in place.

 Freddy Kruger wrote:
IThe usual is anything goes, but it's considered VERY poor sportsmanship to rock up with a super spam cheese list without telling your opponent, as no one wants to be insta wrecked in 1-2 turns.

Alternatively, it's VERY poor sportsmanship to rock up with a super weak list without telling your opponent, as no one wants to insta wreck their opponent in 1-2 turns.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Freddy Kruger wrote:
IThe usual is anything goes, but it's considered VERY poor sportsmanship to rock up with a super spam cheese list without telling your opponent, as no one wants to be insta wrecked in 1-2 turns.

Alternatively, it's VERY poor sportsmanship to rock up with a super weak list without telling your opponent, as no one wants to insta wreck their opponent in 1-2 turns.

Out of curiousity, what's your definition of "super weak"? I find it a lot easier to accidentally make a worthless list than to accidentally make a strong one. I can absolutely understand if a newer player brings in something weak, because they take what they think is cool, but what they think is cool is something like Bullgryns.

 Peregrine wrote:
Alternatively, it's VERY poor sportsmanship to rock up with a super weak list without telling your opponent, as no one wants to insta wreck their opponent in 1-2 turns.

As I said, everyone auto brings fluffy/odd/fun lists in my FLGS. You make a point that you are playing tournament level lists, so your opponent can bring one too.

Again, I'd like to see your reasoning that bringing a weak list is just as bad as bringing a good list? If a person brings a very weak list, it's their choice, and I'm pretty sure they wouldn't mind loosing because they brought what they WANTED to use, not what they HAD to use to even have a chance. Heaven forbid anyone having fun playing 40k, because we can't have that though, can we?

 Peregrine wrote:

 Freddy Kruger wrote:
IThe usual is anything goes, but it's considered VERY poor sportsmanship to rock up with a super spam cheese list without telling your opponent, as no one wants to be insta wrecked in 1-2 turns.

Alternatively, it's VERY poor sportsmanship to rock up with a super weak list without telling your opponent, as no one wants to insta wreck their opponent in 1-2 turns.

The problem with this mindset....

Is a very simple one.

Not everyone has multiple armies. What about the Ork player who's loved his Orks for 15 odd years? Are you telling him he's a bad sport for playing Orks against your Tau/Eldar/SM/Ad Mech Convocation?

He's a bad sport for not having a Tau/Eldar/SM/Ad Mech Convocation of his own?

I find that mindset utterly stupid to be honest. There's a difference between rocking up with super spam FotM WAAC and having an army that's relatively weak due to the way the codexes have come out over the past few years.

You aren't going to change people's attitudes; some people like to play competitive and that's what they will default to. You can have events that change army comp, lists, etc, but ultimately if you want a casual game you're probably just going to have to play with casual people.

I can't stand the highlander format, I play mostly MSU units as my armies don't have units that are autoinclude that do most of the job alone. With that format I would be forced to take a lot of things that I don't want to bring.