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 Drasius wrote:
What? Thousand Sons are terrible at what they do. A bog standard plasma squad will kill more marines that equivalent points in thousand sons will, and since they're forced to use the trash Tz table, they're not good psychers either, not to mention that rubricae are one of, if not the most, expesive squad per warp charge in the entire game. Even in a maxed out war cabal, it's still the HQ's that carry the army despite, not because of, taking the MoT.

Give me a moment while I consider how long its been since I talked about any of this...

*been a long time*

Okay. A squad of Chosen kitted out with four plasma runs identical in cost to a base squad of Rubrics. The Chosen are obviously better at killing AP2, but the Rubrics get to be equally effective against AP3, with no Gets Hot, a decent invulnerable save and Slow and Purposeful which is a bit of give and take.

Rubrics are good at what they do. Killing AP3. The problem with Rubrics isn't how well they do their job its how many points they have to pay to do it. If their squad Psyker didn't cost 10 points more than he should, and the Rubrics themselves were 3 points less per, they'd come in at a competitive price point. The Psyker gives some versatility to make up for their crappy weapon options (Though how awesome would it be if Spell Familiars were available as an upgrade option?). The cannon option for Rubics costs twice what it should, which applies to Scarabs as well while I'm at it, and the Hellfire Missiles too. The Scarabs are at least priced at a point that makes sense. A terminator squad with a built in ML2 psyker, and with the rules for the Legion bar bones. The termies still cost too damn much, but at least the price point makes sense with respect to the rest of the game and they pay the standard cost for their leader's mastery levels.

The Tzeech table isn't that bad (the one is Codex CSM is the new one isn't). Doombolt and Treason of Tzeentch are nice (with the later actually usable when you have upwards of 20 dice to throw in your psychic phase which Sons do easily). Baleful Devolution isn't great but it's AP2, and it's better than Warpfire, and Siphon Magic just gives you more dice to roll on powers. Given how many powers you're going to get to roll for you will get some of the better ones, and it's not like you absolutely have to bring nothing but Tzeentch (unless they do, I don't have all the rule books so if that's mentioned somewhere the rest of this is void XD). Just roll some Telepathy for some Screams, maybe some heywire form the one I can't spell without looking it up and you can cover the bases of what you lack in weapons with psychic mojo

Yeah the HQs carry the game, but it's those psykers in the squads that are giving them the juice to do it. Those squads just cost too much when they bring little more to the army than providing a battery and some objective holding, and the wonky way their detachment and formations are organized is very inflexible even if its bonuses are nice. There's just too much tax. Even the Exalted Sorcerers cost more than they're worth and they've got some great options. Tzaangors are the most price competitive thing Thousand Sons get and who the hell is play Thousand Sons to run a horde army of bird people?

Honestly I just get the sense that GW knows there's people who love the Thousand Sons and liks to torture them with overpriced units and inflexible rules. And that's part of why Magnus doesn't work in a Thousand Sons army, because when buying into your basic infantry unit costs as much as a fully kitted out team of CSM with a transport (an option a Thousand Sons detachment doesn't even get!), you don't have any room for a guy who costs more than 4 MSU squads.

You underestimate the power of friendship. Friendship is magic. Tsons have a lot of magic.

Ok so we played the dual last night and i played some nurgle daemons with a CSM Cad with magnus in my mate played GK with Girlyman and some skitari/mechanicum i dont really know what is what haha theyre all robots to me.

So while playing i spent 3 turns flying rings around Guilliman shooting him with powers i got the single D shot off all 3 times on 3 dice denied twice and rolled a 1 once and then used some other powers to kill a dreadknight. Eventually the onagar dunecrawlers with all 3 with skyfire shot Magnus and he failed and hit the deck got charged by rowboat and i did 2 wounds to him and proceeded to take enough wounds in 1 round of combat to kill me twice he rolled two 6's and then 6's the one after re rolling the one for preferred enemy chaos... I know this wont happen everytime as my rolls were bad and his were good and i agree Smurf should win the combat but Magnus should have a chance even if he wins 3 in 10 but i dont see it ever happening unless you are super lucky. I mean i even got lucky and my GUO got iron arm and enfeeble off on RG and charged him, just to see what would happen as i was handsomly winning the game at that stage and i got rekt in 2 rounds of combat. It was my 1st game against him and i understand that he does have his drawbacks but with some of the psychic shenanigans the conclave can pull, he can teleport around the battlefield and that isnt way more expensive than like a landraider. so people saying he cant move anywhere so is useless, it just isnt true. He is mad powerful and i can see him being in many tournament lists as i dont think there is much that can hurt him except fething wraith knights haha.

Why haven't you focused on the rest of the army? It's like trying to kill celestine or cawl.

Rubric Marines fill a roll that the Chaos Space Marines don't particularly need; which is killing MEQs without cover saves. They are exceedingly expensive for what they're supposed to be good at, and even with the Heldrake nerf the Rubric Marines still aren't anywhere near the best at killing MEQs. Rubric Termies also suffer from being horrifically expensive while having mediocre firepower; and while the extra wound is nice against small arms fire and plasma, they die like zoanthropes to massed S8+ fire (better against poor AP S8+ fire but worse against good AP S8+ fire) while not having the benefit of being reasonably affordable warp charge batteries or access to psychic shooting quite as good as warp blast.

And for an army that's supposed to be unparalleled masters of sorcery, the 1k sons don't really have any cheap way to get warp charges. In an equal points game, the Eldar, Tyranids, Daemons, Grey Knights and hell even some other Imperium of Man builds; can pretty easily stay well ahead of the 1k sons in warp charges if they're actively trying for maximum warp charge builds. But hey, Tzeentch Chaos Space Marines have been terrible for over a decade now. Why change that?

...Wait.

They're relatively durable sorc bunkers. Not nearly as bad as one might think.

Read lessthanjeff's batrep here:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/810/709466.page

 LordofHats wrote:

 Drasius wrote:
What? Thousand Sons are terrible at what they do. A bog standard plasma squad will kill more marines that equivalent points in thousand sons will, and since they're forced to use the trash Tz table, they're not good psychers either, not to mention that rubricae are one of, if not the most, expesive squad per warp charge in the entire game. Even in a maxed out war cabal, it's still the HQ's that carry the army despite, not because of, taking the MoT.

Give me a moment while I consider how long its been since I talked about any of this...

*been a long time*

Okay. A squad of Chosen kitted out with four plasma runs identical in cost to a base squad of Rubrics. The Chosen are obviously better at killing AP2, but the Rubrics get to be equally effective against AP3, with no Gets Hot, a decent invulnerable save and Slow and Purposeful which is a bit of give and take.

Rubrics are good at what they do. Killing AP3. The problem with Rubrics isn't how well they do their job its how many points they have to pay to do it. If their squad Psyker didn't cost 10 points more than he should, and the Rubrics themselves were 3 points less per, they'd come in at a competitive price point. The Psyker gives some versatility to make up for their crappy weapon options (Though how awesome would it be if Spell Familiars were available as an upgrade option?). The cannon option for Rubics costs twice what it should, which applies to Scarabs as well while I'm at it, and the Hellfire Missiles too. The Scarabs are at least priced at a point that makes sense. A terminator squad with a built in ML2 psyker, and with the rules for the Legion bar bones. The termies still cost too damn much, but at least the price point makes sense with respect to the rest of the game and they pay the standard cost for their leader's mastery levels.

The Tzeech table isn't that bad (the one is Codex CSM is the new one isn't). Doombolt and Treason of Tzeentch are nice (with the later actually usable when you have upwards of 20 dice to throw in your psychic phase which Sons do easily). Baleful Devolution isn't great but it's AP2, and it's better than Warpfire, and Siphon Magic just gives you more dice to roll on powers. Given how many powers you're going to get to roll for you will get some of the better ones, and it's not like you absolutely have to bring nothing but Tzeentch (unless they do, I don't have all the rule books so if that's mentioned somewhere the rest of this is void XD). Just roll some Telepathy for some Screams, maybe some heywire form the one I can't spell without looking it up and you can cover the bases of what you lack in weapons with psychic mojo

Yeah the HQs carry the game, but it's those psykers in the squads that are giving them the juice to do it. Those squads just cost too much when they bring little more to the army than providing a battery and some objective holding, and the wonky way their detachment and formations are organized is very inflexible even if its bonuses are nice. There's just too much tax. Even the Exalted Sorcerers cost more than they're worth and they've got some great options. Tzaangors are the most price competitive thing Thousand Sons get and who the hell is play Thousand Sons to run a horde army of bird people?

Honestly I just get the sense that GW knows there's people who love the Thousand Sons and liks to torture them with overpriced units and inflexible rules. And that's part of why Magnus doesn't work in a Thousand Sons army, because when buying into your basic infantry unit costs as much as a fully kitted out team of CSM with a transport (an option a Thousand Sons detachment doesn't even get!), you don't have any room for a guy who costs more than 4 MSU squads.

Chosen? No, no, a basic squad of 10x CSM with a pair of plasma guns runs you 170 points compared to 6 rubricae (well, 5 rubrics and a sorc, but whatever) is 173. In every instance except where their MEQ opponents are standing completely in the open and don't go to ground, the vanilla squad kills more MEQ's than the Sons do. When was the last time you saw a squad of marines just standing around in the open? Never? Never. Sons are trash at their only job - killing MEQ and their sorc is trash at being a psycher.

The Tz table is bad. Firestorm is bad, boon is bad, bolt is incredible (and now you're even less likely to get it), siphon is total trash on ML1 casters (spoiler, that's all the aspiring sorcs) and doesn't break even until you've got like 3 casters with it and it's randomly rolled unless you're Magnus), breath is bad, devolution is bad against anything else bar MC's and treason is too expensive to anyone but an HQ to cast since WC3 and no spell familiar is generally a no-go. Now your aspiring sorcerors have a 1/6th chance of the only spell worth casting instead of 1/3rd. That's pretty bad for a lore that was already one of, if not the, worst in the game. It's less terrible when you've got 10 rolls on the table and 4 HQ's who can actually use siphon, devolution and occassionally treason, but that's also the only build that works (IMHO).

The psychers in those squad are most certainly not giving them the juice to do it. The Scarab sorcs can at least take a primaris and be moderately useful, but the rubrics? effectively no useful power unless you roll doombolt and then you're still a MINIMUM of 150 points for 1 warp charge when the going rate to be competative is ~50 points per dice? No, that's a terrible deal. Rubricae are bad and they should feel bad. Don't get me started on the uselessness of Tzaangors...

At the very least, we can agree that Magnus is terrible for a Sons army since their base cost is horrendously high and he needs that competative level of ~50 points per warp charge to fuel his blue pot addiction. If the Sons were 120 points a squad and 20 per additional dustbin, maybe we could talk, but even then they'd still be behind the curve on WC generation and still be prohibitively expensive to run Magnus I feel.

 koooaei wrote:
They're relatively durable sorc bunkers. Not nearly as bad as one might think.

Read lessthanjeff's batrep here:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/810/709466.page

Hard to kill sorcerers are only as good as their spells. The Tzeentch table is rather short on buffs and debuffs and psychic shooting has quite a lot of failure points that means that it has to be pretty exceptional in order to be worth it. Mastery level 1 psykers in particular are not a particularly good platform for psychic shooting.

150 points for one warp charge is an awful tax when armies like the Tyranids can get two (and be guaranteed a pretty good psychic shooting attack that gets stronger the more zoans you buy) for just 50 or so. Nevermind the Eldar who have fantastic psychic powers and cheap warlocks who can bunker up in just about anything in their army without being stuck to a unit that's only cost effective against MEQs standing in the open. And "killing MEQs in the open" is not a particularly good role to fill given that nobody puts MEQs in the open unless they're bad at the game or unless they have some other plan. And even then; as far as MEQ killers go the Rubrics are thoroughly mediocre; Howling Banshee tier at best.

tneva82 wrote:

 Ubl1k wrote:
I understand he can just fly around but how does he cast a spell making him invincible. guilliman can shoot him down with his badass stormbolter haha

That stormbolter ain't killing him even if you don't cast anything. But 6 to hit, your hit rolls suffer -1. You need to roll 7 to hit. Good luck with that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
it's a little less cut and dried when you realize for the price of magnus you can take Gulliman and 2 full squads of sisters of silence.

True that. How many people take SoS though? No psykers and whopedoo those are pretty useless points.

Not sure I agree, a squad of 5 is only 75 points, this is pretty cheap (we're talking about the price of a SM tac squad) and because of the formation you can take em as, it's also dead easy to slide in. but, let's use another more common example, 300 points would buy a space marine player a Grav Centurion squad. with points to spare. or it'd buy (yet again with points to spare) Kaldor Dragio, or Marnus Calgar, or many other, reasonably solid game changing elements. if Magnus WASN'T more powerful then Gulliman it'd be a problem

 Drasius wrote:
It's less terrible when you've got 10 rolls on the table and 4 HQ's who can actually use siphon, devolution and occassionally treason, but that's also the only build that works (IMHO).

I think your assessment is a little harsh, but that's basically my point. The only absolutely worthless thing in that tree is Boon of Mutation. The others even when they're mediocre have a use or fill some kind of hole Rubrics don't; anti-horde, anti-ap2, anti-armor etc.

Don't get me started on the uselessness of Tzaangors...

Bird people are people too man I see little point to them outside their formation, but getting fleet on a T4 model ain't bad especially when they provide all those ablative wounds and melee blocking the rest of the army lacks. Of course, for what they do Tzaangors still feel overcosted. They're not worth 3 points more than a standard Cultist, again something a Thousand Sons detatchment doesn't have an option to take because GW will give you themed formations and demand that only the Thousand sons out of 9 traitor legions have no options but to take their themed formations for some reason (well Black Legion gets restrictions too but theirs aren't nearly as silly).

At the very least, we can agree that Magnus is terrible for a Sons army since their base cost is horrendously high and he needs that competative level of ~50 points per warp charge to fuel his blue pot addiction. If the Sons were 120 points a squad and 20 per additional dustbin, maybe we could talk, but even then they'd still be behind the curve on WC generation and still be prohibitively expensive to run Magnus I feel.

That's basically my entire point XD The Rubrics hit the bin because their price is too high, but because they themselves are bad (splitting hairs a bit but w/e). Crossing my fingers that they get a very nice price cut in a new update sometime cause those models are gorgeous and someday I'll have the money to get some.

Boons of mutation are hilarious when combined with warband and scions. It's just a wc1 thing that noone will deny. That can occasionally net you something interesting. An extra spawn or dp out of a squad champ is neat when you have a couple useless marines footslogging across the board.

Magnus is crap for CSM - he is amazing for daemons.

 koooaei wrote:
Boons of mutation are hilarious when combined with warband and scions. It's just a wc1 thing that noone will deny. That can occasionally net you something interesting. An extra spawn or dp out of a squad champ is neat when you have a couple useless marines footslogging across the board.

I think it definitely qualifies for fun, but it's far to random too expect anything out of it. I'd never use it. I'd rather bank on a Warpfire maybe doing something (and that's just if it was a literal choice between Boon and Warpfire, with all the psychic dice Sons get there's got to be something better lying around to throw a random number at) XD