Wraithlords, over pointed or underrated

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**JohnHwangDD**

Yeah, but it's the build that actually hits the table with lots and lots of vehicles that don't suck.

**SicSemperTyrannis**

Atleast your MC´s are not getting doubled out.

**Caedes**

Meh. I've had decent luck with my WL in my ynari army. Being able to soulburst and move or shoot twice is nice. It also does not really die. The only time I've lost it in about 10 games was to a nightbringers gaze of death. Some games all it did was hold a flank and take an objective, as the other guy ignored and stayed away from it. Others it drew ALL the fire, so I kept it in cover and used it like a distraction carnifex so the rest of my army could go to work.

I think it can be very useful. But like everything eldar it's a rapier not a sledgehammer. Trying to use it as the latter will of course get it kicked in by grav, lazcannons or whatever else. But having a bit more finesse and working it with the rest of the army can be beneficial.

**Amishprn86**

SicSemperTyrannis wrote:
Atleast your MC´s are not getting doubled out.

Nah just 1 unit of Grav bikes kills it in 1 round of shooting.

**koooaei**

Eldrad wrote:
Currently I have been working on a new idea for playing eldar which is largely inspired by revolutionary war/ roman empire skirmish lines.

Which worked cause long-ranged shooting was close to irrelevant and there was no magic.

**zerosignal**

Wave Serpents are still good.

Pop your Guardians in them, whizz up the table, disembark, shuriken catapult things to death.

Add a foot farseer for prescience and you have a decent enough unit. Not scatbike/wraithknight decent, but decent enough for casual play.

**Xenomancers**

Amishprn86 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
The wraith lord is actually one of the worst MC's in the game.

.... Carnifex, Trygons, Exocrines would like a word with you

They are in the same group. The trygon is maybe the only one of those I'd call worse than a WL.

**obsidiankatana**

Xenomancers wrote:
Amishprn86 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
The wraith lord is actually one of the worst MC's in the game.

.... Carnifex, Trygons, Exocrines would like a word with you

They are in the same group. The trygon is maybe the only one of those I'd call worse than a WL.

How in the heck did Haruspex not make that list?

**Blackie**

Like many others eldar's units the wraithlord is not underrated nor overcosted, it's just that there are 5-6 other units available that are awfully undercosted and overpowered.

**Amishprn86**

obsidiankatana wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Amishprn86 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
The wraith lord is actually one of the worst MC's in the game.

.... Carnifex, Trygons, Exocrines would like a word with you

They are in the same group. The trygon is maybe the only one of those I'd call worse than a WL.

How in the heck did Haruspex not make that list?

I can name more... but why bother it was the point that these are all the same cost/more cost than the WL, they all also are worst in every way. You can say Harpy (but some think its a good unit, I dont) too or the Direchin (Spelling, the FW Lictor Hive Tyrant).

**Gangrel767**

I once took an army with 5 wraithlords, 2 wraithseers and a bunch of wraith blades (pale court detachment)...

It was a blast! I played against tyranids, so it was monster warfare in the center of the table. I had also squeezedin a couple avatars so i had the advantage. It was a lot of fun and a game we recall often.

As a whole though... unless you're spamming 5-10 of them... WL are awesome models without a role in the army.

**RancidHate**

Falcons can transport Fire Dragons. Fire Prisms or Shadow Weavers can put down the long range pain. Each of those caj be taken 3 per Heavy slot. D-Cannon squads are ok for the price but great at losing 1 crewman than attached characters are T7. Dark Reapers puts the hurt on those damnable MEQ bikes.

Wraithlords are just... slow and bleh compared to the others. All ot has is T8 but MLs (which aren't rare) combined with no I saves make short work of it.

**vaurapung**

So I've been list testing with friends. I built what I thought to be a friendly 1500 pts list but underestimated what it would be like.
The list,
Farseer and spirit seer as hqs
Three gaurian squads 10 with warlock and a brightlance wave serpents.
To top it off three Wraithlords,
Flamers and glaive on all and each with dual guns,
Brightlance, shurican, starcannon.
My epiphany after playing this list against genestealer cult and space marine strike force ultra formation is that Wraithlord can be amazing.
One lord will die, two lords doesn't split your opponents fire up enough. Three lords with 6 large guns cost 485 points but gets you 9 wounds on three models with a threat range of 24-36 inches and capable of running in pack form with one as a warlord.

**Matt.Kingsley**

obsidiankatana wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Amishprn86 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
The wraith lord is actually one of the worst MC's in the game.

.... Carnifex, Trygons, Exocrines would like a word with you

They are in the same group. The trygon is maybe the only one of those I'd call worse than a WL.

How in the heck did Haruspex not make that list?

We do not speak of that... thing.
It doesn't and has never existed.

**PipeAlley**

Grey Templar wrote:
Imateria wrote:
Amishprn86 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
The wraith lord is actually one of the worst MC's in the game.

.... Carnifex, Trygons, Exocrines would like a word with you

Nah, they're all just as bad (though the Exocrine's a little better).

I wouldn't say that. the Nid MCs are much worse. The Wraithlord actually is somewhat survivable because of T8 and 3+ armor. The tyranid MCs don't have either the saves or the toughness to make it. They can still get gunned down by bolters which at least the Wraithlord is immune to.

The Wratihlord is closer to what MCs should be, and I think with a point reduction and maybe a better save it could be viable. Nids need a bunch more work.

Or it should be a GMC! T5 or less is Normal. T6 or 7 is MC (excluding from upgrades like bikes). T8+ is GMC. It'd be a lot simpler.

**Grey Templar**

Wrathlord is a little too small to be a GMC. Thats what Wraithknights are for.

Wraithlord honestly could probably just use an option for a 2+ save and something to make it faster.

**Martel732**

Grey Templar wrote:
Wrathlord is a little too small to be a GMC. Thats what Wraithknights are for.

Wraithlord honestly could probably just use an option for a 2+ save and something to make it faster.

Eldar typically don't sport 2+ saves.

**Grey Templar**

Something made of Wraithbone would be plenty of justification for it.

**Martel732**

They why don't they currently have 2+? I think it's about to be irrelevant, but I don't think MCs should have 2+ in general.

**G00fySmiley**

I don't know if they need a 2+, but I know my wraithseer has the shield for a 5++ makes the wraithlord much better, also FNP would make sense for wraith constructs they are just a robot body piloted by a elder soul afterall (wraithknight already has it so not buffing them). honestly I think all mc should by default get fnp but not sure how many would agree there. I can say as somebody constantly playgn guard and grav cannon space marines wraithlords show up, then disappear without doing much

**Martel732**

G00fySmiley wrote:
I don't know if they need a 2+, but I know my wraithseer has the shield for a 5++ makes the wraithlord much better, also FNP would make sense for wraith constructs they are just a robot body piloted by a elder soul afterall (wraithknight already has it so not buffing them). honestly I think all mc should by default get fnp but not sure how many would agree there. I can say as somebody constantly playgn guard and grav cannon space marines wraithlords show up, then disappear without doing much

All MC can have FNP, but they need to pay for it, since they are mostly T6. Riptide pays 35 for it, but that's much too cheap, I think.

**JohnHwangDD**

PipeAlley wrote:
Or it should be a GMC!

The WL is resilient, but I'm having trouble seeing it making STOMP! attacks in HtH.

**G00fySmiley**

Martel732 wrote:
G00fySmiley wrote:
I don't know if they need a 2+, but I know my wraithseer has the shield for a 5++ makes the wraithlord much better, also FNP would make sense for wraith constructs they are just a robot body piloted by a elder soul afterall (wraithknight already has it so not buffing them). honestly I think all mc should by default get fnp but not sure how many would agree there. I can say as somebody constantly playgn guard and grav cannon space marines wraithlords show up, then disappear without doing much

All MC can have FNP, but they need to pay for it, since they are mostly T6. Riptide pays 35 for it, but that's much too cheap, I think.

that's because it has a 2+ a riptide is really good for the points, most other monstrous creatures are not. There is a reason tyranid MC lists are not super competitive outside flyrants. Same reason wraithlords stay at home and the not one single DE talos pain engines out there has seen a table in the past decade. besides a eriptide is not a MC it is a walker and should never have been considered a MC

**Martel732**

They'd get a lot better with layered saves, though.

**Grey Templar**

The Riptide is close to OP because not only does it have 2+ armor and can pay for a FnP(and a 3+ invuln if it wants to roll dice). but that its a primarily ranged platform. It can sit back 30+ inches, while remaining highly mobile, and still contribute.

Most other MCs are primarily melee or short ranged shooting. They are forced to expose themselves, unlike the Riptide.

If something is a mostly melee or dual purpose MC, its ok for it to be pretty durable because it has to be. Its less ok for a 99% shooty(and long ranged shooty) MC to have such insane durability.

**Martel732**

I mainly agree with that, but putting FnP on any T6 model should be pretty expensive. It's FnP you basically can't get rid of because there's not enough instant death in the game.

**Grey Templar**

Well, I think thats kinda half the point of MCs. That they're very hard to instant death without force weapons. They can take high damage hits and still live.

That said, I would like Str D to go back to having instant death innately instead of just counting as Str10.

Or make FnP have some more things that ignore it. Something that ignores it without causing ID would be interesting. Maybe make Sniper and Fleshbane ignore FnP, since those are specially designed to kill tough things.

**Martel732**

Grey Templar wrote:
Well, I think thats kinda half the point of MCs. That they're very hard to instant death without force weapons. They can take high damage hits and still live.

That said, I would like Str D to go back to having instant death innately instead of just counting as Str10.

Or make FnP have some more things that ignore it. Something that ignores it without causing ID would be interesting. Maybe make Sniper and Fleshbane ignore FnP, since those are specially designed to kill tough things.

Taking high damage hits and living needs to be expensive. That's all I'm saying. Because that makes them superior to heavy infantry in every way. MCs laugh at vindicators, battlecannons, or any other source of single high Str hits.

**vaurapung**

I just played against marines last night. 5 brightlance, 2 star cannons and 5 shurican cannons were unable to kill one five man squad of terminators because a 2+ with 5++ save. I know the dice fixed some of it against me but still I net 1 wound per turn in shoot against fleshy men. But a t8 with only 3+ armour is not prepared for the t6 spamming. A happy compromise would be alternate load outs like the wraithknight. The flamer/catpult remain but you could take a sword and shield by giving up taking the heavy weapons.

**Martel732**

vaurapung wrote:
I just played against marines last night. 5 brightlance, 2 star cannons and 5 shurican cannons were unable to kill one five man squad of terminators because a 2+ with 5++ save. I know the dice fixed some of it against me but still I net 1 wound per turn in shoot against fleshy men. But a t8 with only 3+ armour is not prepared for the t6 spamming. A happy compromise would be alternate load outs like the wraithknight. The flamer/catpult remain but you could take a sword and shield by giving up taking the heavy weapons.

That's just a statistical anomaly. Terminators are awful. And fragile.