Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

My local group tends to play smaller games due to time and space restrictions. After spending money on the model I want to use Leman Russ in my 1500 list (the largest games they play for now). If I use the primarchs chosen rites of war it says I must take veterans or terminators for troops. My questions is which rule takes precedance, the space wolves legion rules stating Grey Slayers or the rites special rules? I'm leaning towards rites of war as altough the grey slayer rule says units from the age of darkness troops section get the support squad rule the veterans and terminators are normally in the elites section.

The Rule about Termies and Vets takes precedence over the Grey Slayers.

They only do 1500 games of Horus Heresy at your game store?

The current consensus is you go by most specific. Row is the most general as every faction has them. Then the slave wolf rules so that blocks primarch chosen then Russ rules sk you can still take Veterans and Varagyr as troops but no Russ as HQ.

Also wolves are barred from this right as it says primarch mus to be HQ bit slave wolves rules say you need a Centurion Praetor as the compulsory HQ.

The group I play with is a lot closer than store for me and much easier to organise games through facebook but there is plenty of other miniatures games played in their hall.

My group is full of RPers so I'm pretty sure they would let me play it with Russ regardless but I am curious what determines the order that specific and general are determined?

E.G.
Legion rules state must be a praetor or centurion where rite says Primarch, that's a specific unit type verse a choice of two, isn't that more specific? Generally in most rites of war you would use the regular hq rules but in this specific rite you use the hq? See what I mean? Specific and general can be applied a number of ways so how do you determine which takes presidence?

Nebulas1 wrote:
The group I play with is a lot closer than store for me and much easier to organise games through facebook but there is plenty of other miniatures games played in their hall.

My group is full of RPers so I'm pretty sure they would let me play it with Russ regardless but I am curious what determines the order that specific and general are determined?

E.G.
Legion rules state must be a praetor or centurion where rite says Primarch, that's a specific unit type verse a choice of two, isn't that more specific? Generally in most rites of war you would use the regular hq rules but in this specific rite you use the hq? See what I mean? Specific and general can be applied a number of ways so how do you determine which takes presidence?

Specific to general is normally applied rule book -> codex -> individual model in the codex (such as the case brb says hit on close combat at 3+ Kharn overrides on hit on 2+)

So primarchs chosen is a general right of War which every Legion can take in the Red book. The Vlka Fenryka special rules are more specific ad they are for the individual force.

Fair enough, I'm just asking is this order determined anyway in the rules or is it what the community decided? If there is no rule then it really comes down to players agreeing on it per game or a TO ruling per tourny.

Nebulas1 wrote:
Fair enough, I'm just asking is this order determined anyway in the rules or is it what the community decided? If there is no rule then it really comes down to players agreeing on it per game or a TO ruling per tourny.

I think gw had mentioned it I the gas first addressing Kharn. I can't really recall another specific place I remember seeing it.

I think this is one of the many Rites of War space wolves simply can't take.

If a Rite of War requires you to take X as Compulsory Troops, and the Space Wolf rules require you to take Y as Compulsory Troops, then you can't use the two things together. Allowing it would allow people to creatively skip restrictions.

The fluff section on Space Wolves organisation in book seven is pretty clear that their wolfy way of war means that they don't have access to certain tactics or formations that other legions have. It seems like this is an intentional decision to me.

The wording does favour the idea that rites which replace the compulsory troops simply cannot be taken.

However, Leman Russ has a rule which allows different units to be taken as compulsory troops, in much the same way as rites of war do. For this reason I do not believe it is the intent that the grey slayer restriction override all others.

(Specific overrides general. In this instance General would be the legiones astartes rule, and specific would be the rite of war restrictions.)

Let's see if this is the question:

Primarch's Chosen Rite of War: The First: Legion Veteran Tactical Squads or Legion Terminator Squads must be taken as Compulsory Troops Choices.
Red Book, pg. 100

Leman Russ: The Circle of the Varagyr: If Leman Russ is your army's Warlord than the Primary Detachment which contains him may select Varagyr Wolf Guard Terminator Squads and Legion Veteran Tactical squads as compulsory Troops choices in their Force Organization chart.
See Book VII: Inferno

Space Wolves Army Selection: 4th bullet: Only Grey Slayer units may be taken as compulsory Troops choices by any Space Wolves Detachment.

The Primarch's Chosen says you MUST take Vets and Terminators. Leman Russ says you MAY take Vets and Varagyr. Space Wolves rules says ONLY Grey Slayers may be taken.

Interesting! Well, I'd say you have to take two units of Vets AND two units of Grey Slayers to satisfy both conditions. Until we get an FAQ. Rites of War are also optional rules, and you don't have to take one. When you do take one, it adds even more limits to the Force Organization chart. Here we have a conflict between the specific army rules and the Rites of War. There are no rules for dealing with this in 30K. In 40K, the codex trumps general rules, but this isn't a codex. A specific rule always trumps a general rule, but in this case, which rules are the general rules, and which rules are the specific rules?

The Force Org chart says only Troops choices can fulfill the compulsory Troops requirement. Then when you select Space Wolves, the army rule says only Grey Slayers (which are a type of Troops choice only available to the Space Wolves) can fulfill the compulsory Troops requirement. When you take Leman Russ, he adds two unit types that may be taken to fulfill the compulsory Troops requirement. Finally, we select the optional Rite of War: Primarch's Chosen that says only Vets and Terminators satisfy the compulsory Troops requirement. The Force Org chart is a general rule, while the army, Primarch, and RoW are special rules, but which ones take precedence?

As a side note, I'm really disappointed in the quality of the rules writing in this book considering how long they had to write it. This feels more like a 40K campaign codex then the premier line of quality gaming accessories that Forge World is known for. I hope Book VIII is not written this poorly.

edited to clean up and fix a few things.

So if the grey Hunter rule was an inviolable restriction, Leman Russes rule would never work....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So it must be overriding... Which is somewhat different to the RoW rule true


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But that logic would allow Leman Russ to ignore RoW restrictions altogether.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
So if the grey Hunter rule was an inviolable restriction, Leman Russes rule would never work....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So it must be overriding... Which is somewhat different to the RoW rule true


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But that logic would allow Leman Russ to ignore RoW restrictions altogether.

This just really looks like an oversight of the rules. As far as I can tell, only the Space Wolves require you to fulfill the compulsory Troops choices with a specific unit (in this case, Grey Slayers). All the other Legions and Primarchs simply open up more units to fit into the Troops choice. Optional Rite of War have further restrictions on specific unit types for compulsory troops.

*Edit: I glanced through all the Rites of War too quickly it seems. This isn't a problem for any other Legion, because no other Legion requires a specific unit type to fill Compulsory Troops choices. Rites of War do. So here we have the Space Wolves requiring a certain Troops choice, and Rites of War requiring a certain unit choice.

Well, Pride of the legion also. There are a couple of others where compulsory troops are required, where the effect would be more pronounced.
Armoured breakthrough forces you to take predators.
Fury of the ancients forces you to take dreads.
Drop assault vanguard forces you to take assault squads.
Recon company/recon squads

Logically I would say SW cannot take these rites, due to their grey slayer restriction. But Russ might override this (but probably shouldn't)

I glanced through all the Rites of War too quickly it would seem.

It's not a Leman Russ problem, it's a Space Wolves problem. Its a Space Wolves rule that says you have to take Grey Slayers for your compulsory troops choices. Leman Russ really has nothing to do with it except he adds more units that may fill the Compulsory Troops choice.

I didn't want to be that heartless and say "Well, you can take one or the other, but not both." Like, you can't have your cake and eat it too. From my standpoint, if my opponent took all the appropriate units to fill that compulsory troops choice, then I wouldn't have an issue with it. Like I said above, two units of Vets or Termy's, AND two units of Grey Slayers would satisfy me for Primarch's Chosen. That would lead to some interesting interactions with some of the RoW though. As always, discussion with your opponent is probably the best option here.

From a fluff standpoint, it would make sense that the Space Wolves wouldn't be able to take a lot of those Rites of War because the Space Wolves were so different from the other Legions. There are a lot of people that go with the fluff != rules view, so...

I read leman russ's rules as an extension of the wolf rules, only grey slayer may be compulsory troops however if you take russ you may add vets and varagyr to that list. This does not allow you to take primarchs chosen however as you only have 1 "compulsory" hq spot and it must be taken by both a praetor and russ. I would hope named master of the legion (including primarchs) should count but at this time nothing states that. They can however in my reading run pride of the legion if they take russ as he will specifically as part of the space wolf rules unlock varagyr (which as elite termies can be taken as troops) and vets.

The thing about this formation for me is that it allows me to use Leman Russ in smaller games that a primarch normally wouldnt be allowed in. Everyone in my group has since agreed that it makes perfect sense that russ would want to surround himself with his wolfguard when taking on a superior numbered foe or going on a boarding action. Also if I spend 70£ on a model and take the time to paint I damn well want to use it every chance I get which my opponents also understand and sympethise with.

The problem is that either way you look at it wolves cant run primarchs chosen at all as the wolves rules say a praetor has to be the compulsory hq and the row says that russ has to be it. House ruling it with your gaming group is the only way to go at this point.

Worst thing is I doubt we're likely to see any FAQ for this book until after 8th edition drops.

Nebulas1 wrote:
Worst thing is I doubt we're likely to see any FAQ for this book until after 8th edition drops.

Unless Forge World has completely integrated with GW, the rules guys for 30K are separate. I read a rumor that 30K will remain 7th Ed, while 40K moves in a different direction in 8th, in which case a more robust FAQ/Errata will be needed. Until then, it would take Forge World all of an hour to issue a FAQ for Book VII, and then modify it later. It's the 21st Century and the Information Technology age. There is no reason outside of whatever self constraints they place on themselves not to make this happen. Its very aggravating that you can text Forge World and if it's business hours, get an almost immediate answer. E-mail is usually answered within a day. But the answers are all "unofficial" and they stress talking to your opponent. Bah!

Book VII is either one of the worst books Forge World has written, or it will all make sense when 8th drops.

Problem with theory of 30k stays with 7th ed is gw would need to sell two versions of rules, 7th and 8th. Doesn't seem likely

 Tamwulf wrote:
...It's the 21st Century and the Information Technology age...

Someone should tell GW that. They're all stuck on the idea that they've got to keep to a print schedule for rules updates so people don't get annoyed that they have to stick post-its into their $50 books that shouldn't be $50 in the first place. Privateer and Corvus Belli seem to be surviving without making people spend loads of money on rulebooks, is GW's profit margin really that slim?

Imo they should put a code in each codex/book they release that you can use with black library account to get 1 free digital download with each FAQ release.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:
...It's the 21st Century and the Information Technology age...

Someone should tell GW that. They're all stuck on the idea that they've got to keep to a print schedule for rules updates so people don't get annoyed that they have to stick post-its into their $50 books that shouldn't be $50 in the first place. Privateer and Corvus Belli seem to be surviving without making people spend loads of money on rulebooks, is GW's profit margin really that slim?

Yes the retail chain is a massive drain 55% of what you pay is going to prop up the stores.

hobojebus wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:
...It's the 21st Century and the Information Technology age...

Someone should tell GW that. They're all stuck on the idea that they've got to keep to a print schedule for rules updates so people don't get annoyed that they have to stick post-its into their $50 books that shouldn't be $50 in the first place. Privateer and Corvus Belli seem to be surviving without making people spend loads of money on rulebooks, is GW's profit margin really that slim?

Yes the retail chain is a massive drain 55% of what you pay is going to prop up the stores.

Some days I wonder if they're banking on the sunk-cost fallacy. "I bought these rulebooks, it looks annoying and complicated...but I'm over a hundred bucks in the hole, maybe I should give the game a shot..."

..works on me.

7 chaos books and counting...

We are straying a bit off topic...

30K and Forge World is not for the novice player. It's a significant investment over 40K, and that barrier kept a lot of people out of 30K. With the box set game Battle of Calth, that initial barrier came down. A new player for US$160, could get two or three plastic Tactical Squads, two HQ models, and a Contemptor Dread. Throw another hundred for the Red Books, add a couple Rhinos, Land Raiders, throw in a little "counts-as" and you could be playing a Legion of your choice. Except some of the new 30K players are skipping the Red Books and depending on Battlescribe or the interwebs for rules.

30K is gaining a lot of new players and is more popular then ever. I think a lot of 40K players see it as "balanced", or less janky then 40K and gravitate towards it. Certainly, 30K is more forgiving in play and army list selection then 40K, but I worry that a lot of ultra competitive types will come to 30K and break the game.

 Tamwulf wrote:
...30K and Forge World is not for the novice player. It's a significant investment over 40K, and that barrier kept a lot of people out of 30K. With the box set game Battle of Calth, that initial barrier came down. A new player for US$160, could get two or three plastic Tactical Squads, two HQ models, and a Contemptor Dread. Throw another hundred for the Red Books, add a couple Rhinos, Land Raiders, throw in a little "counts-as" and you could be playing a Legion of your choice. Except some of the new 30K players are skipping the Red Books and depending on Battlescribe or the interwebs for rules...

Black Library's charging $55 US for digital copies of both main Red Books (enough for thirteen of eighteen Legions) these days. It's almost priced like a normal Codex. (Now if only they'd do digital copies of the main-sequence books so you could use the other five and the Talons of the Emperor without running going through FW for hardbacks...)

And with Pride of the Legion/Chosen Duty to use Veteran Tacticals (possibly mechanized) as Troops and the full Calth box running $120-140 on Ebay I'd say a decent 1,500pt start at 30k (Calth, digital red books, 2-3 Rhinos or a Land Raider (depending on Legion)) could run around $250 US these days. Cheaper than some proper 40k armies. (Certainly cheaper than a Tau army. $250 barely gets you three Riptides.)

(It is certainly more expensive to expand 30k, but with a bit of creativity, greenstuff, and plasticard you can produce a surprising number of era-specific units from their more modern counterparts. Scrounge some excess underslung weapon arms for your Cataphractii, appropriate the ammo feeds from the bolters, and stick a large-calibre muzzle on the front, and are people really going to complain that your Grave Wardens aren't sufficiently resiny? And what's to stop you going to the bits people for Kataphron tracks and making your own Rapiers?)