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 Xenomancers wrote:
It's even more suicidal to alpha strike a wraithknight with SFD because the suicide units you throw at it end up allowing more scatter-bikes to soulburst with ease.

This is actually another good reason for the Wratihcannon WK. If killing the WK allows 2 Scatterbike units nearby to Soulburst, then opponents are less likely to aim all the Grav at it (thus not needing the 5++ as often). Or they will shoot it anyway and get shoot at by those bikes. It's a win-win for the Ynnari.

I guess the main point I am trying to drive at is that the Ynnari are an army the creates very hard choices for opponents and that, I think, is their biggest strength.

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I have played a few games against them. The harlequin Ynnari army has its own unique play style. Its close up and feels like the correct type of laughing god shenanigans. However they aren't balanced at all the kill / lose one unit gain 2 free actions is way too powerful for ehm.. free.

I feel as if it should have been limited to Dark Eldar and Harlequins (and maybe Black Guardians on foot).

Giving this ridiculously powerful rule to CWE seems like... well, a massive massive mistake in design.

*cough* not like we've seen those before *cough*

As someone who has been playing ynnari non stop in tournaments since GS:2's release I have to say its way too strong. Soul burst stops so much counter-play and makes the good units way better. By turn 2/3 I'm pretty much always getting 2 rounds of shooting out of my WK. Add to this how insanely tanky the triumvirate makes any melee blob and how hard to deal with the ycarne can be and well.. it usually doesn't end well for your opponent.

Out of 9 tournament games so far i have tabled my opponent 7 times and won 9.

I will no longer be playing CWE ynnari outside of tournaments because honestly it just is not fun for anyone involved.

zerosignal wrote:
I feel as if it should have been limited to Dark Eldar and Harlequins (and maybe Black Guardians on foot).

Giving this ridiculously powerful rule to CWE seems like... well, a massive massive mistake in design.

*cough* not like we've seen those before *cough*

Honestly, it should have been like the way High Elves and Dark Elves were at the end of Fantasy 8th ed, were they gained each others snowflake rule.
So CWE would get Power from Pain (and keep Battle Focus), DE get Battle Focus (and keep Power from Pain), and Harlies get both.

It would be a boost to all for sure, but not as potentially OP as free actions out of sequence.
I feel like the Ynnari are going to be one of those armies that are top-tier on the surface (mostly because of the CWE units) but can be utterly game breaking in the hands of a really skilled player.

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Generally speaking? It's nearly always more powerful to run a Ynnari force than a straight Eldar/Dark Eldar/Harlequin force. The only times it isn't is when your force is heavily dependent on Battlefocus. Psychic Powers merely only benefits from the ability to move more effectively, but that's still pretty awesome.

The reason it works so well is that it's basically insurance against something bad happening. For most lists, even if you only Soul Burst once during the whole game, that's a whole once more than you normally would be able to, meaning it's automatically better than whatever you were doing before.

Fundamentally, the ability works best on units that are fast already, since them being able to move a second time is generally more powerful than it is for basic infantry. If they shoot well, either with things like Scatbikes or Haywire Grenades, then that really puts them in a strong position.

Its a shame because I really really love the concept of Ynari.

It's basically exactly what I wanted from a Ynead worshipping army.

I don't think that the actual SFD rule is overpowered, but the actual units that can benefit from it. And its a damn shame.

If WK's and bikes and spiders were balanced there wouldn't be this whole issue.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

As for the Tau Overwatch thing, what did people do when it first came out? Develop tactics that neutered it. Charge units that are out of position so can't benefit from it, or charge units with a throwaway chaff unit as each squad can only overwatch once. They have to choose between being tied up in combat so that unit can't overwatch when the nasty unit gets going, or shoot overwatch against the chaff so your nasty unit gets in scot-free anyway

Nope, slow foot slogger assault armies just shelved their armies thats what happened.

They've been shelved since 5th.

lusciifi wrote:
As someone who has been playing ynnari non stop in tournaments since GS:2's release I have to say its way too strong. Soul burst stops so much counter-play and makes the good units way better. By turn 2/3 I'm pretty much always getting 2 rounds of shooting out of my WK. Add to this how insanely tanky the triumvirate makes any melee blob and how hard to deal with the ycarne can be and well.. it usually doesn't end well for your opponent.

Out of 9 tournament games so far i have tabled my opponent 7 times and won 9.

I will no longer be playing CWE ynnari outside of tournaments because honestly it just is not fun for anyone involved.

I totally agree. Im smashing tournament lists at my club and beating the players i consider better than me constantly now. Ive smashed a WS battle company twice now, obliterated a war convocation and laid out my buddies 3 knight 3 flyrant list.

Its unbelievable frankly.

PyrhusOfEpirus wrote:

lusciifi wrote:
As someone who has been playing ynnari non stop in tournaments since GS:2's release I have to say its way too strong. Soul burst stops so much counter-play and makes the good units way better. By turn 2/3 I'm pretty much always getting 2 rounds of shooting out of my WK. Add to this how insanely tanky the triumvirate makes any melee blob and how hard to deal with the ycarne can be and well.. it usually doesn't end well for your opponent.

Out of 9 tournament games so far i have tabled my opponent 7 times and won 9.

I will no longer be playing CWE ynnari outside of tournaments because honestly it just is not fun for anyone involved.

I totally agree. Im smashing tournament lists at my club and beating the players i consider better than me constantly now. Ive smashed a WS battle company twice now, obliterated a war convocation and laid out my buddies 3 knight 3 flyrant list.

Its unbelievable frankly.

I haven't been unlucky enough to play against them yet but I have heard a ton of people/friends say they won't put them on the table now because it's just to broken and no one has fun. Is it really that bad?

Well I went from middle of the pack playing tau and old CW:E to taking 1 2nd place and 2 1st place with ynnari in local tournaments.

Ill put it this way, its not my skill as a player that changed. Maybe some of it is just people not knowing how to play against it but a LOT of the time it doesn't matter what tactics you use. If I was in my opponents shoes I honestly don't know how i could have done much better.

Take for example a D-scythe squad with a WWP. Before Ynnari they came in, killed a single unit and tended to die shortly after. Now with 2 rounds of fireing in one turn there is rarely a unit alive in range of one of their flamers the turn they come in. And if they try to sacrifice something weak to charge you you get another free action to either move out of the 2nd units charge range or do a full round of shooting at them.

So it is that bad. That's awesome. I'm gonna have to look into these guys more then. I have no idea how i'd counter all the out of sequence soul bursting.

 ILegion wrote:
So it is that bad. That's awesome. I'm gonna have to look into these guys more then. I have no idea how i'd counter all the out of sequence soul bursting.

Large blasts/Flamer template weapons/Multi-assaults for Clumped together Ynnari (They can't soul-burst if you've locked them in combat, or kill whatever would have been soul bursting in the same attack)

And Defensively, minimum size units= them chain reaction killing you. So use proper, decent sized units, spread out properly to neuter how much can be done by the "WWP D-scythe wraithguard" or other similar tactics

I find melee based Ynari quite balanced, but I have also been doing very very well for an army that basically constitutes a few bikes and harlequins + the kymeara 'star'

It can't be that bad

Jbz` wrote:

 ILegion wrote:
So it is that bad. That's awesome. I'm gonna have to look into these guys more then. I have no idea how i'd counter all the out of sequence soul bursting.

Large blasts/Flamer template weapons/Multi-assaults for Clumped together Ynnari (They can't soul-burst if you've locked them in combat, or kill whatever would have been soul bursting in the same attack)

And Defensively, minimum size units= them chain reaction killing you. So use proper, decent sized units, spread out properly to neuter how much can be done by the "WWP D-scythe wraithguard" or other similar tactics

So my lion's blade will struggle against them with 5 man squads. That's something else I was wondering. Feel free to ignore if not the proper forum, but IIRC the soul burst rule says a unit with 7" of the destroyed unit can immediately make a soul burst action. If I cover 2 units with templates from one unit, thinking assault squad with flamers, I have to resolve the wounds against one unit first, but the second unit that is hit by the same attack can't soul burst until after I've resolved all wounds on both units right? May be stupid and I may be over thinking it but just thought I'd ask someone that's actually played them a bit.

All of a units shooting is resolved before anything else happens. Even if the ynarri player were to argue that soulburst happens at the same time it dosnt matter because on your turn you get to decide the order of simultaneous actions.

lusciifi wrote:
All of a units shooting is resolved before anything else happens. Even if the ynarri player were to argue that soulburst happens at the same time it dosnt matter because on your turn you get to decide the order of simultaneous actions.

Ah. That makes since. Thanks.