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Hi guys,

So looking into getting back to 40k from a 2 year break, I'm looking into getting rid of a lot of extra stuff I have for what I play nowadays, and decided on keeping Eldar and CSM/Daemons.

I have always been big fan of Khorne/Nurgle SM wise, so looking to build around these 2 gods.

My big doubts comes when thinking Khorne. When I stoped played I was looking into building around KDK as there were no traitor factions there and I could do nice Khorno bike units with a Juggy lord, with some daemons and such. But now, with the release of World eaters, I was wondering what would come out top.

Both have nice rules and nice things, so I was wondering which one is best competitive wise (I know my Eldar will be better for that, but still). For friendly games I will use either or, so looking into making a good list, where should I more likely look?

Another question I have when setting up the lord on bike is what is peoples opinion on the daemon weapons Blind fury axe (or whatever is called from the CSM: Codex)? I ask because I don't see a lot of people using it to be honest.

Regards,

For competitve it depends on your budget and your play style.

For KDK:
Definitely (IMO) the more expensive build and its a bit mono build. If you actually want to field power armour go with world eaters decurion. If you want to go with khorne daemons then go with KDK. The best thing to hit the KDK codex is the flesh hound spam. I once went with 80 flesh hounds in an 1850 point list and it was amazing to play. Problem with KDK is that you are a bit of a one trick pony everyone knows what you are going to do. Plus summoning daemons is very $$$$

For World Eaters:

IMO more fun to play since you are actually playing CSM. basically you run MSU to the max with the WE decurion and hope to khorne that your get first turn. So with the World Eaters detachment I would go with 3 bikers with melta 3 termies with 3 combie meltas, 6 csm squads of 5 with CCW and Meltas, your havocs take one melta and take three of them. take a bunch of cultists and spawn and rush the board.

As for the Axe no one uses it in competitve because its too expensive and unreliable for what it does. You get rage and d6 extra attacks for something expensive. people would rather go with PF and LC. Other than that GL.

 -v10mega wrote:
For competitve it depends on your budget and your play style.

For World Eaters:

IMO more fun to play since you are actually playing CSM. basically you run MSU to the max with the WE decurion and hope to khorne that your get first turn. So with the World Eaters detachment I would go with 3 bikers with melta 3 termies with 3 combie meltas, 6 csm squads of 5 with CCW and Meltas, your havocs take one melta and take three of them. take a bunch of cultists and spawn and rush the board.

I've never seen an MSU style WE list do well. We really don't have the survivability to field 6 units of 5 CSM and think for even a moment they are going to do anything more then die in the midfield. Meanwhile my 10 man CSM squads are able to to take a bit of damage and still make it to the enemy, and there really isn't a reason to take more then 2 - 3 units of them. Havocs with Autocannons sitting in the backfield also force your enemy to shoot at THEM instead of your onrushing madmen, taking pressure off your forward troops and giving the enemy no good choices (pretty much the only strategy assault based armies have). Honestly WE seem like the WORST MSU legion except for the bikes.

Are you seeing something different in your local meta or competitively?

I dont know, but for me it works really well. The point is not survivability but speed. IF you have first turn, its really good since your three bike squads get into combat plus your MSU spawn. The idea is to create maximum threat overload. People have the option of shooting the bikes, the large blobs of cultists, flesh hounds or the csm with melta bombs. It works for me, obviously its not that competitve but it holds its own but it is so reliant on that 1st turn.

 -v10mega wrote:
As for the Axe no one uses it in competitve because its too expensive and unreliable for what it does. You get rage and d6 extra attacks for something expensive. people would rather go with PF and LC.

I'm a huge fan of the Axe of Blind Fury. Rage and 1d6 extra attacks is decent (You already get Rage from MoK, so only good for DP's) but the deal clincher is Str +2 and AP2, both at initiative. On a juggernaut (why wouldn't you be if you bought the MoK?) you'll have 4 attacks base, +1 for your bolt pistol, and either +1/+2 depending on if you were charged or you did the charging. The cost is -1 to WS and BS, which really aren't a big deal to a Chaos Lord. You also run the risk of rolling a 1 on your 1d6 attacks which will hit you with a armor-ignoring wound (better buy a Sigil) and drops you to WS1 ... but I've still swept units when that happens.

It's expensive and it takes buying the right things to make him work ... but he makes his presence known, I promise.

And with all that being said, LC + PF will never be bad.

EDIT: On the OP's topic, I'd agree that it really depends on style. In my experience, KDK is better at going the distance in a long game with average luck; if you don't take heavy losses, you have the strength to bring the pain. If you -do- take losses, you at least get Blood Tithe to get new units or boost resiliency via FnP. WE CSM tends to be very one-sided; you'll either crush your enemies and see them driven before you .... or you'll perish on the Fury Road trying to get there. If you can't inflict huge losses in your opponent turn 1/2 with WE CSM, you're pretty much done.

 -v10mega wrote:

As for the Axe no one uses it in competitve because its too expensive and unreliable for what it does. You get rage and d6 extra attacks for something expensive. people would rather go with PF and LC. Other than that GL.

The Axe is pretty darn reliable if you ask me. That's not really the issue imo. Even when it rebels, it's still only 1 attack behind the claw combo on either TEQ or MEQ...provided you take it on a juggernaut. And on TEQ it's still better due to being at initiative.
The thing is that it's not enough of a difference on a bike. The claw is 5 points more expensive but never rebels and it's a big difference when the axe does rebel.
On the other hand, with juggernaut you run 10 points more but not only does the extra attack almost make up for the chance to rebel compared to a bike, you also get an additional wound. So now you have about the same performance when it does rebel and much better when it doesn't (which is most of the time) and you're more survivable since you're lord isn't likely to have wounds stripped at range where he could benefit from having jink.

So it's more like, if you're taking the axe, you're taking the juggerlord. The 10 points more for the mount are worth it in that case. Otherwise you take a bike.
Against vehicles they pretty much perform the same on average, with the axe having a chance to wreck a walker before it gets to hit back, but either way you're avoiding vehicles.
Also unlike axe, the LC+PF combbo also has the option of taking MoN, which is generally preferred in a competitive setting.
With the warband there is also ObSec to take into consideration. I don't usually miss having turbo boost on a my lord, but with ObSec, having turbo boost is a pretty big boon.

That would be why you don't see much of the axe. It's only usable on a khorne lord and you're not taking a bike when you do.And most legions now straight up can't even use it to begin with.
The only exceptions really are Black Legion and World eaters. BL because they don't have ObSec lords anyway outside of a black crusade and the axe can be an at initiative powerfist, so there's very little point in paying for an actual fist.
And HQ heavy world eaters will have both types of lords. Otherwise even they'll stick to their own relics and/or use a bike for ObSec.

Oh and taking it on a prince is rare due to how it changes them to be hit on a 4+ in CC rather than on a 5+. (though I found that there usually isn't much left to hit back when you do this lol)

Did someone REALLY just say the AoBF wasn't competitive? That's literally one of the only things that has been competitive since Day 1.

Well, no one said it, but havent seen much people using it on their lists.

Between the two armies, to be honest, I like both play stiles. Both are going to try to be in your face, though in different ways.

I would like a mix of both of them, but I think that KDK lose out too much if you don't go full on them because they loose a lot on blood tithe right?

I love the Axe on daemon princes but for the lord its too many points and there is a better relic... (tailsman) I have always been about boys over toys so its up to you. The people above gave very valid arguments.

 -v10mega wrote:
I love the Axe on daemon princes but for the lord its too many points and there is a better relic... (tailsman) I have always been about boys over toys so its up to you. The people above gave very valid arguments.

I wouldn't leave home without the Talisman on a WE Chaos Lord, either. I'd just bring another as a Command choice and give that one the Talisman. (Axe on the Warband Chaos Lord for the option of double Boons, since he's more killy!)

^^ thats up to you. I like my power fists and lightning claws

^^ thats up to you. I like my power fists and lightning claws

 -v10mega wrote:
^^ thats up to you. I like my power fists and lightning claws

Mathematically the Lightning Claws and Fist combo isn't as good.
You're getting an average of 3-4 extra attacks with the Axe. When you compare them on the charge:
1. 6 S5 AP3 Shredding attacks at I5
2. 6 S9 AP2 attacks at I1
3. 9-10 S7 AP2 attacks at I5

Who cares if you flounder once on the roll?

 -v10mega wrote:
I love the Axe on daemon princes but for the lord its too many points and there is a better relic... (tailsman) I have always been about boys over toys so its up to you. The people above gave very valid arguments.

You do realize that a claw and fist is MORE expensive than the axe right? It's only more expensive than the claw when you take the mount. Assuming both lords have the MoK obviously.
It's not like the axe isn't good on a bike either, just not as good as it is on a mount.
You risk taking a wound and whiffing, sure, but the axe wounds even T5 on a 2+ and is AP2 so you don't have to pick your targets, it mulches through everything that doesn't have a storm shield.

If you can take it, it's well worth the one in six chance to wound a little worse than the claw imho. Even on a bike.
The mount adds to it's lethality when it works and compensates for the the wound and loss of attack when it doesn't....plus it looks bad ass.
Also, there's the chance to get a good roll too, in which case, for better or worse, the lord can tear through an entire unit all on his own.
So it's not like your only taking a risk with the axe.

Juggerlords with axes have been regarded as one of the best HQ choices for the spikey boys since the 6e codex first dropped. Them being subpar is news to me.

I can't count how many challenges my AoBF Juggerlord has won, rolled double boons, and gotten stronger and stronger. Granted I play against my roommate's Gray Knights a lot and I challenge and murder his Dreadknights all the time and murder them before they're able to do anything against me. Do not underestimate AP2 at initiative. Just thinking about Axe of Khornes on KDK units make me drool, if WE were able to get that on their champs they would be extremely powerful.

So getting back to this, I have been trying to tailor some lists down and I would like to add in 2 maulerfiends, but it seems that with world eaters you can do so only if you add 3 of them plus the warpsmith, which is something I really don't want to as I would need to buy them and I need those almost 250 points for other stuff.

Is there any way to add 2 of these in?

Also if I Wanted 2 baledrakes, would it be better an air superiority detachment, or the one that comes in the book?

Thanks

Not really. Closest would be the black legion formation, but that also requires a smith.
Hence why I don't think the eye of night is as expensive as it used to be. In a CAD it's super expensive, but compared to other anti tank solutions in a decurion, it might actually be cheaper...

The Eye of night being?

Also, on another topic, is it a bad idea to use a juggerlord in a unit of 5 bikes?

kaintxu wrote:
The Eye of night being?

Also, on another topic, is it a bad idea to use a juggerlord in a unit of 5 bikes?

A terrible Orbital Bombardment for 70 points.

kaintxu wrote:
The Eye of night being?

Also, on another topic, is it a bad idea to use a juggerlord in a unit of 5 bikes?

A relic for Black Legion. Like Slayer said, it's basically a better orbital bombardment, but instead of being free you pay 75 points for it.
And nobody in their right mind wants to pay that much for something that might not even hit. (it's one use)

But when a bare bones fist of the gods is 300+ points, it almost looks reasonable ^_-. Same with the other vehicle/walker based formations.

As for the juggerlord, no, a unit of bikes is not a bad idea. It's usually how I run my juggerlord.
They're more squishy then spawn but they get meltas and icons for the lord. And powerfists if you're so inclined.
They're faster too if you decide to split up along the way since you can turbo boost with the bikes and run with the lord. Might have to conga line a bit.
I find my lord is fine on his own once you survive turn one and are close enough, usually anyway.
Spawn help your lord get into CC better than bikes, but I find bikes more flexible while still giving enough protection to the lord.

I can't really make my mind on whether I should go KDK or world eaters, both have it's pro's and con's and the army is more for friendly games to have an In your face army,

World eaters will get there faster, but summoning with Blood Tithe is good

After you play for a while, you'll amass more and more models, and you can just do whatever you feel. Try running the Bloodfeeder from World Eaters instead of the axe of blind fury. You'll get a bit more bang for your buck. You also have access to all the CSM heavy weaponry, which can give some nice supporting firepower to let your melee specialists kick even more butt. The downside is that you don't get daemons built in (but you can always ally) and you don't get the KDK special abilities. Another formation to look at is Hounds of Abaddon, which lets Khorne units run and charge in the same turn. Not quite as good as either KDK or World Eaters, but you have access to all of the other Black Legion formations if you run as Black Legion, so that's another way to run with it. Ultimately, play around, proxy, feel stuff out. Run with what fits your play style. Even if it's not an optimal loadout math-wise, playing to the way that your brain naturally works will prevent you from slipping up in the long run. I love assault, but I also love to have some heavy support, so I run a mixed bag of tricks that keeps my opponents on their toes due to my various loadouts, while forcing them to stick to cover due to overwhelming fire (anvil) so I can get my assault specialists into range to do what they do SO well (hammer). Just work out what works for you. Some people love to just run down the entire enemy army, but that doesn't work against certain armies, so learn to adapt within your style.

I'm just going with both, makes it easier. That way I can run World Eaters, Daemonkin or Daemons of Khorne depending on how I feel.

I have the tools to run both, or even all three as I have a large daemon army, but don't get to play often thus my doubt

I've tried both and recently I think you can hit pretty hard with the World Eater Warband army. The whole thing has objective secured and if you roll well you can guarantee turn 1 charge with bikes/raptors/warp talons. I haven't been a fan of the maelstrom of gore myself because I think regular CSM are just about as good with better ranged weapons than Berzerkers only losing WS5, but that's my two cents.

I would think that a Butcherhorde with a Warband as core and a Favored of Chaos as an auxiliary would be nasty. Put the Berserker Glaive on the Daemon Prince from the Favored, and run a Juggerlord with the Talisman in a unit of bikes or Spawn. Possessed are normally not good, but 3 units of them would help at least one of them hit home, especially if they roll well on the initial 2d6 move.

FYI there's a Fist of Khorne Formation Warhammer World did: a Kharybdis carries 20 KDK Berzerkers, and they can charge on the same turn they DS in (which will be turn 1).

In my experience KDK has been more reliable

Doesn't mean much cause I have more bloodletters than I do csm, so I can't really run csm as well as I should, but still

I like that blood tithe gives us access to summoning even though we don't use magic, and turning a cultist into a bloodthirster for free works pretty well for me

I also just like most of the daemon units moreso than csm, the only real reason I try to use World Eaters is cause Kharn. Like I said I might feel different If i had enough marines (I only have 10), but with what i've got Im liking KDK more

I wonder if you could combine the two into a good list. Like, take a Butcherhorde with a Maelstrom of Gore as a core choice and just a unit of Spawn as an auxiliary, and fit in a KDK CAD for a Bloodthirster and some Bloodletters and Hounds. There might not be enough points since Berzerkers are so expensive. This would give you access to Kharn, along with the benefits of the WE Butcherhorde, but you would also have the Daemon units from KDK available. I'm not sure half-assing it is a good idea, though.