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Personally I love the combat aspect just as much as the political and strategic aspects of 40k. So, in celebration of everything punchy, would love hear some lore debating in this thread about several "who would win?" scenarios, I'm particularly interested in.

Vect - Eldrad

Angron - Fulgrim

Urien - Fabius

Mortarion - Magnus

Kharn - Grimnar

Cypher and 'the fallen - Shadow-Sun and a Stealth Team

Vect is like 40k batman, if he had time to prepare he'd defeat anyone. He is essentially the most influential mortal in existance, with limitless resources and the brain to put them to use. Eldrad might be a diviner, but after his showing in Death Masque my estimation of his powers have dropped dramatically.

Primarch fulgrim > primarch Angron, Daemon Angron > Daemon fulgrim. Daemon fulgrim got lazy, Daemon Angron overcame Angrons flawed physiology.

Master vs Student, Bile has a better biology by virtue of being astartes and in a hand to hand knock up Bile wins. Urien has died thousands of times while Bile relies on clones, so Bile is likely to work harder to avoid death. With prep Rakarth wins due to having access to better technology and resources.

Primarch mortarion beats Magnus by virtue of his antipsyker witchbane properties, daemon Magnus defeats daemon mortarion due to Mortarions poor showing vs Draigo.

Grimnar beats Kharn, because Kharn would be revived while Grimnar wouldn't, therefore plot armour favours the loyalist.

Cypher beats shadowsun, I don't care about tech the Fallen have had thousands of years experience while the Tau rarely lived over 200. Cypher stomps.

Vect can take Eldrad at least six times out of ten as long as he gets his equipment IMO. That fight would be an epic and confusing battle of precognition against competence and cunning.

I'd back Kharn against any loyalist marine except maybe Mephiston, as well. He's on a whole other level in terms of speed and strength.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Vect is like 40k batman, if he had time to prepare he'd defeat anyone. He is essentially the most influential mortal in existance, with limitless resources and the brain to put them to use. Eldrad might be a diviner, but after his showing in Death Masque my estimation of his powers have dropped dramatically.

Primarch fulgrim > primarch Angron, Daemon Angron > Daemon fulgrim. Daemon fulgrim got lazy, Daemon Angron overcame Angrons flawed physiology.

Master vs Student, Bile has a better biology by virtue of being astartes and in a hand to hand knock up Bile wins. Urien has died thousands of times while Bile relies on clones, so Bile is likely to work harder to avoid death. With prep Rakarth wins due to having access to better technology and resources.

Primarch mortarion beats Magnus by virtue of his antipsyker witchbane properties, daemon Magnus defeats daemon mortarion due to Mortarions poor showing vs Draigo.

Grimnar beats Kharn, because Kharn would be revived while Grimnar wouldn't, therefore plot armour favours the loyalist.

Cypher beats shadowsun, I don't care about tech the Fallen have had thousands of years experience while the Tau rarely lived over 200. Cypher stomps.

I agree with most, except daemon angron beating fulgrim. Fulgrim may be decadent but would still be unmatched in speed and wit, fulgrim also has defeated the likes of Guiliman and Ferrus (putting guiliman on a permanant life support still counts IMO). Also the new fluff describes fulgrims mental manipulations true extent, not even having to be near guiliman to cripple him emotionally. And we are probably talking about the more level headed primarchs in contrast to Mr "always angry all the time" I just dont think angron has the capacity to handle fulgrim. Physically yes, mentally fulgrim is leagues ahead. Also, Khorn is a rather unreliable ally as he dosn't care from where the blood flows.

I would imagine those sorts of mental manipulations would fall flat against Daemon Angron. As one of the more favoured Daemon Princes of Khorne, you'd imagine he'd have some pretty potent psyker defences. Supported by the fact of just how damn many Grey Knights it took to take him down. I can't imagine temptations having much traction, and due to Fulgrims pride (that was his downfall remember, Pride, there is no way he'd pass on a chance to cut down the Khornate Dog in 1v1 combat) it would lead to a physical confrontation. Which Daemon Angron wins.

A good portion of a Daemon of Slaaneshes ability lies in it's ability to tempt and distract, with martial skill being their fall back. Khorne Daemons are about martial skill and fury, from first to last, it makes sense that Angron would tear Fulgrim a new one.

Angron's one sided thinking would be a boon, as fulgrim's mind tricks wouldn't have the power to affect angron. Primarch Angron > Fulgrim. Not sure about daemons though.
I remember Sanguinus was given applause because he was one of the only ones to last more than 2 seconds against angron in a duel/spar. If I remember correctly, Fulgrim was one of the Primarchs who lasted less than two seconds.

For Win Conditions (which haven't been specified here), I'm presuming that beating the particular instance of the duelist is sufficient (i.e. though Urien and Bile will live on through clones, killing THAT clone is enough to secure the win - similar for the manifestation of a daemon, or taking down Kharne).

I'm also presuming that a victory is achieved through either killing or knocking out the opponent.

Onto the duels:

Vect and his batman-levels of planning ahead may be one of the few counters to Eldrad's incredible precognitive capabilities (the only other one I can think of off-hand would be Astartes-level Plot Armor - Hi, Deathwatch!).

If sufficiently prepared (and its probably fair to say that if Vect ever deigns to be in a duel with Eldrad, such preparations are all but guaranteed), Eldrad's ability to choose the best out of thousands of futures is a meaningless ability, because each and every future Eldrad looks towards will lead to Vect's victory.

Then again, Eldrad has punched above his weight before in extreme loser scenarios - and in this case, like when fighting Abaddon, Eldrad may well find the 1 in a 1000 future that lets him achieve victory. Really, its when Eldrad has the majority of futures on his side when he gets cocky and gets his ass handed to him in a humiliating fashion (hi again, Deathwatch!).

Barring plot armor, my money's on Vect. If Vect could conceivably gain from losing against Eldrad (drawing out a particular enemy who THINKS Vect is vulnerable), then Eldrad's chances go up.


Angron v Fulgrim:

Fulgrim is grace and speed and skill manifest. He is tactical, he is strategic, his movements are precise to the millionth decimal point. He IS perfection.

Angron would, nevertheless, stomp Fulgrim into the dust, through sheer brutality, strength, skill (guys, fighting duels in arenas IS ANGRON'S BAG, BABY), savagery, and sacrifice (allowing Fulgrim a striking but non-fatal blow, catching the blade in his flesh, and beating the gak out of Fulgrim like Sin City's Marv does to Kevin.)

" I got you now, ya little bastard. Let's see you hop around now."

Angron curbstomps. It's made pretty damn clear that the only ones who could potentially contend with Angron in a duel were Sanguinius, MAYBE Horus, and possibly Constantine "I'm just that much of a badass" Valdor.


Urien v Fabius: Urien has a speed advantage, but Fabius is better overall (particularly given he's enhanced himself beyond the normal Astartes physiology).

Both are exceptionally skillful.

I'm leaning towards Fabius, but I'm less sure about this one. I don't know too much about Urien's feats in combat.


Mortarion v Magnus:

Yes, Mortarian is a bit anti-witch. So are blanks. But... we're talking MAGNUS here. Being anti-witch is not going to help Mortarion survive being crushed by a 5km ship pulled from space directly onto his head. Or being kicked into orbit by a Titan-sized Magnus (yeah, he can do that), or having the ground beneath him converted into Lava, or any of the other thousand ways that Magnus could indirectly screw with all but the MOST potent anti-psykers.

Magnus curbstomps, unless he's in Worf mode, at which point Mortarian wins because Magnus got confounded by an Idiot Ball.



Kharn v Grimnar:

Damn, that's a seriously tough one. Both are scrappy as hell, both has insanely impressive combat feats (Kharn's are pretty much self-explanatory, but Grimnar has fought Greater Daemons and lived, has drawn his weapon so quickly that a goddamn Grey Knight Captain-equivalent couldn't follow it, and is generally a badass cranky old bastard).

I'd put it at 50/50, or maybe 60/40 in Kharn's favor.


Cypher and the Fallen vs Shadowsun and a Stealth Team

...ALL of the Fallen? That's probably hundreds of marines (even in the 41st millenium). Shadowsun and a single Stealth Team of (at most) 6 are getting curb-stomped so hard, Commander Puretide will feel it.

Assuming even numbers, well... Shadowsun is good, but Cypher is a goddamn Space Ninja Ubermonk Sorceror. Between the two, Cypher is coming out on top.

In a pitched battle, the fallen are going to kick Stealth Suit ass. If the Stealth Suits have the chance to catch them by surprise, they'll be able to cut down most of the enemy before they have a chance to respond.

But this is an arena, so the former is the most appropriate presumption.

So Cypher and his Fallen are curbstomping here.

The only one I want to argue here is Fulgrim vs Angron. Fulgrim, beyond clear headed, and far, FAR faster, would rock Angron. Angron may have the power to destroy a hive city by himself, but Fulgrim would see every swing coming before it even happened. Fulgrim's speed and cunning would easily best Angron's heavy handed tendencies. Also, even if Angron died, Khorne would still be happy. That said, he'd probably bring him back and let the two do it again, just for the thrill of the fight.

...Yeah, no.

Fulgrim nearly lost his fight against Ferrus Manus, and only won because the daemon sword took over and finished the fight for him.

Angron is a thousand times the fighter that Ferrus Manus was on his worst day.

Fulgrim would have a half an hour of consciousness and seeing the swing coming before it even happened, but without the capability of ever preventing it from landing. He would get absolutely smashed by Angron, and no degree of perfection would prevent that inevitability.

angron vs fulgrim is INCREDIBLY one sided towards angron as he spent his ENTIRE childhood fighting in an arena against khorne knows how many creatures of marine level phsyology

 Robin5t wrote:
I'd back Kharn against any loyalist marine except maybe Mephiston, as well. He's on a whole other level in terms of speed and strength.

Mephiston? Not Kaldor Draigo? He only wears Chaos God levels of plot armor...

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Robin5t wrote:
I'd back Kharn against any loyalist marine except maybe Mephiston, as well. He's on a whole other level in terms of speed and strength.

Mephiston? Not Kaldor Draigo? He only wears Chaos God levels of plot armor...

I don't really count Kaldor Draigo as a space marine at this point. He's more like some kind of deranged warp entity.

elder vs vect... they enter the arena, both nod simultaneously. two previously unknown webway portals open, 10 uthwe wraithknights, , a field of wraithguard, let by shadowseers and a few wraithseers appear alongside wraithlords. meanwhilefor vect raiders, beastpacks, and lillith alongside more witches appear. they nod again their forces about face and destroy the arena and every entity that has dared think they can control either one... just as planned

 G00fySmiley wrote:
elder vs vect... they enter the arena, both nod simultaneously. two previously unknown webway portals open, 10 uthwe wraithknights, , a field of wraithguard, let by shadowseers and a few wraithseers appear alongside wraithlords. meanwhilefor vect raiders, beastpacks, and lillith alongside more witches appear. they nod again their forces about face and destroy the arena and every entity that has dared think they can control either one... just as planned

Lol, I like it. Would it then go down to a kill tally if we really wanted to stretch for a "winner"?

 Red_Ink_Cat wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
elder vs vect... they enter the arena, both nod simultaneously. two previously unknown webway portals open, 10 uthwe wraithknights, , a field of wraithguard, let by shadowseers and a few wraithseers appear alongside wraithlords. meanwhilefor vect raiders, beastpacks, and lillith alongside more witches appear. they nod again their forces about face and destroy the arena and every entity that has dared think they can control either one... just as planned

Lol, I like it. Would it then go down to a kill tally if we really wanted to stretch for a "winner"?

Is there an Eldar version of Rock, Paper, Scissors?

 G00fySmiley wrote:
elder vs vect... they enter the arena, both nod simultaneously. two previously unknown webway portals open, 10 uthwe wraithknights, , a field of wraithguard, let by shadowseers and a few wraithseers appear alongside wraithlords. meanwhilefor vect raiders, beastpacks, and lillith alongside more witches appear. they nod again their forces about face and destroy the arena and every entity that has dared think they can control either one... just as planned

However, just as they are about to charge into battle, an Emperor Class Battle Titan and a CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT filled with Custodes and Sisters of Silence emerges from behind the nearby Grox-burger stand. On top of the Titan stands Usarker E. Creeeeeeeeeeeeeedddddddd, who scouted the Titan and Transport a few millenia beforehand.

 G00fySmiley wrote:
elder vs vect... they enter the arena, both nod simultaneously. two previously unknown webway portals open, 10 uthwe wraithknights, , a field of wraithguard, let by shadowseers and a few wraithseers appear alongside wraithlords. meanwhilefor vect raiders, beastpacks, and lillith alongside more witches appear. they nod again their forces about face and destroy the arena and every entity that has dared think they can control either one... just as planned

Funniest part is that they would probably be the same forces considering vect has this random huge army of wraith constructs hidden. Unless they were destroyed in Gathering Storm II?

Vect should know how farseer perceive the many potential futures and would have set in motion many many different plots with many different goals with ultimate goal of skewing the probabilities. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if he currently has thousands of these trivial plots on going for no other reason then to mess with farseers for the past 10 millenia. It's his MO.

Angron will win against Fulgrim. It's a combination of hi's rage and skill. He's not just angry all the time he's also a martial juggernaut. Horus himself mused that Angron would probably even defeat Sanguinius if in his full rampage mode. He'll let himself get hit if it brings his opponent closer and overwhelm with sheer number and strength of attacks. He's a beast. Especially now. Look how much it takes to banish him when he decides to take a little stroll outside the Warp.

Magnus doesn't need to use his powers directly on Mortarion to defeat him. He's got too many options at his disposal to list here. Too bad he's an introverted emo otherwise he'd be at the top spotlight above Sanguinius and Horus.

Hard to say with Grimnar and Kharne. It would be a great match. I want to say Kharne, however, because he's such a swell guy to be around and not afraid anything.

Fabius Bile has a far more reliable way to resurrect then Lucius the Eternal. A far better chance to feth with his plans then his current cloned body. Both Loyalists and Heretics want his head and he's still alive for 10k yrs. If this situation was happening I'd assume he decided his current clone was worth sacrificing and an unknown objective was being achieved while his opponent was distracted by the chance to 'kill' Fabius Bile.

Cypher and the Fallen Angels. The oldest marines. The First Legion. Against half a dozen Tau. Tough call I will have to get back to you on that.....

An Imperial Guardsman and the Avatar of Khaine. This can depend. Now if this private Smith was the primary character of a story then the Avatar is doomed because destroying Avatars of Khaine is one of the initial steps into getting recognized as a badass. Another is to cause Abbadon to fail another crusade. New contender coming soon.