Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Formerly Wu wrote:

Those Malifaux models are also horribly out of scale, but in the other direction. Good luck finding someone who looks like that outside of an anime series.

...I actually know someone who looks like those anime figurines. She is hauntingly beautiful, but also kinda creepy at times when she's wearing tight clothes.

Doesn't help that she's obsessed with gore and likes Slaanesh.

sounds like a cool girl


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:

Regarding proper physical proportions...no, no thank you. There is a reason that even more slight ranges are still cartoony-ish when compared to normal people --- it's for definition at game surface.

sorry I don't understand

I think GW and similar Heroic Scale manufacturers have found a decent balance between representation of game concepts on a miniature level, and ease of modelling/painting. Can you imagine trying to convert a thin, tall marine? The proportions they have now are extremely forgiving for the hobby side of things, and I personally like the way they look as well. To each his own.

 Luciferian wrote:
I think GW and similar Heroic Scale manufacturers have found a decent balance between representation of game concepts on a miniature level, and ease of modelling/painting. Can you imagine trying to convert a thin, tall marine? The proportions they have now are extremely forgiving for the hobby side of things, and I personally like the way they look as well. To each his own.

Perhaps. Personally I have a strong distaste towards models with child-like proportions. What's the point of easy painting if you don't like them very much anyway?

But apparently an army of kids dressed up in big boy clothes doesn't seem to bother the fans. To each his own.

Well, that's all subjective. I'm just saying that aside from matters of taste, there are some very practical reasons Marines in particular don't have realistic proportions. If they did a tac marine would be substantially larger than a current terminator.

True Scale yes, but in 15mm, so vehicles can be in scale with the models, and true scale throughout as opposed to heroic

i like heroic. The exaggerated proportions help fit the exaggerated fluff. It's not like 40k fluff can be taken seriously on any level. It's all ridiculous. The models should be too.

 Lance845 wrote:
i like heroic. The exaggerated proportions help fit the exaggerated fluff. It's not like 40k fluff can be taken seriously on any level. It's all ridiculous. The models should be too.

But do you like kiddy bodies?

No-one else sees them that way, Maximus.

 feltmonkey wrote:
No-one else sees them that way, Maximus.

I kind of do. I'm sure a lot of people do, just not the ones who've replied to this thread

Personally it depends on the race whether or not I care about proportions. Orcs, Lizardmen.... they're made up races and I like the absurd bulk they have.

Cadians, I both love and hate the aesthetic. If GW made Cadians with the exact same aesthetic but proper human proportions I'd be all over them.

When it comes to human models, LotR was my renaissance, after seeing and loving the LotR models made by the Perry brothers I found it really hard to ignore the horrible proportions on the humans seen in WHFB and 40k. It was made worse by the fact I collected Bretonnians at the time and it was around about the same time Bretonnians went from reasonably realistically scaled which I liked (funnily enough, also models done by the Perry brothers) to absurdly bobble headed which I found it really hard to like.

I like the aesthetic. I suspect many others do too - or ultimately it wouldn't sell...

True scale, all the way!!!

And the issue is very easily fixed. Since the standard human is represented by a guardsman, just make those smaller/more proportionate.

That fixes everything. Marines are bulkier in comparison, eldar are taller, orks are bigger, etc....

Just scale down the IG models a bit and everything is fine.

 feltmonkey wrote:
No-one else sees them that way, Maximus.

I don't think that my suggestion is absurd.

in fact, I don't think it's even subjective.

look at the proportions of a child, or a short person, then at the proportions of a reasonably tall grown man.

now look at a mini. the tough manly men we see in the artwork have been reduced to kids playing soldiers. or dwarfs, given the gnarly faces

Like Vintersong, I think scaling down regular humans to make everything look more impressive would work better. The 28mm (more like 32mm) is too large for the scope of game (about 1850 points) that players seem to like to play 40K at on a 6'x4' table. Heck, given some of the numbers of horde armies, it is borderline too big for rank-and-flank style games as well.

I mean it is what it, but if I had a miniatures scale specific time machine and could change the scale of GW games (and thus many other popular games), I think I would change it to 20mm as a good compromise to hobby and play-ability. But that might just be the WWII miniatures war gamer in me.

As for true scale, I wouldn't want actual true scale (too fragile doesn't work on the tabletop as well as you would think), but I wouldn't mind thing scale back a bit.

As a side note, I always found the term, 'heroic scale' funny for miniatures. It has the nearly the opposite meaning to heroic scale in comic book drawing which usually refers to a character being 7 to 10 heads tall. I think shrinking the heads some would help alleviate some of the issues there.

Infinity's models are the perfect example of true scale done right IMO

A semblance of scale is perhaps a better title...

"Heroic scale" is a marketing term for "we made these models chunky as our manufacturing techniques couldn't make anything better". Guns with thicker barrels hold up better to casting...

Games Workshop aren't the only perpetrator, "Heroic" scale was an industry standard. The problem, which a lot of the base don't see as an issue, is that the crap proportions is now a hallmark of the company.

"True Scale" in terms of Space Marines is also an incorrect term. The Marines, whilst being the wrong size, are already pretty huge. Rather GW started making them first, then the sculptors of the other ranges based their stuff from them (and again had to deal with the hubris of being stuck with chunky sculpts). An Imperial Guardsman is too big. They need to be scaled down first before Marines are increased in size, otherwise you wind up with Marines the size of Terminators.

A secondary issue, which effects the industry as a whole, is that people say they're one scale, but're actually another. This is mostly as far as I can tell down the aforementioned issue with manufacturing causing the infantry to be too large. What you wind up with though is vehicles which're gigantic, both in order to accommodate the wide infantry models, and because they're basing they're scaling off of incorrect measurements. The other end's stuff like Warlord Games, where the infantry are chunky, but the vehicles attempt to retain a semi-accurate scale; so wind up looking titchy in comparison (at least companies like CP models sell accurate 1/48th infantry if you want to use them alongside your 1/48th scale tanks - instead of the men looking like children).

I prefer models to be correctly proportioned. Obviously that's not an option, though something close is preferable. What you wind up finding however is every manufacturer doing their own thing with scaling, so the models looks disjointed (no, I don't mean the old "humans aren't all the same size" thing, that's fine, but guns aren't built in different sizes...).

I would say yes, if they scaled down the game back to like 2nd edition/early 3rd edition levels to compensate. But then people would pitch a fit that they can't use all their giant superheavy crap or would just refuse to play smaller point games so it wouldn't really fix anything.

I like GW's heroic scale, it fits the over the top nature of the game.

I prefer that each universe has his own aesthetic. Infinity its slim and manga, Malifaux its too exagerated but just the inverse of 40k. Where 40k its chunky, Malifaux its very slim.

Historicalls have realistic proportions and thats good, but actually, Kings of War miniatures normally have realistic proportions too, and they see a little wrong to fantasy, I don't know.

Space Marines are chunky because thats how they are

I prefer the look of my Infinity models over Space Marines, but:

I think that GW models are more practical as game pieces, especially for Warhammer.
GW models are easier to build, paint and convert (which is helpful to beginners), say what you will about oversized pauldrons, but they are a nice space to paint a symbol or designating colour.
GW models are also tougher, which (like painting and assembly) is less important the fewer models you use a game.
Finally, I can look at a 40k table from 4" away and recognise what is on the table and what the WYSIWIG load out is. With Infinity I can maybe see the type of weapon (launcher, rifle and maybe HMG or sniper rifle), and the size (i.e. silhouette), maybe if I am very familiar with those models I can make out a few. Usually I have to be at the table and playing to see the models decently. Which, again, is fine if you have less than 20 models on the table. In a game of Warhammer I want to be able to see what's what at a glance.
Also note that one of GW's aims is creating a spectacle, which the heroic (scale and sculpt) models are better at (Infinity tables though... ).

 DarkBlack wrote:
I prefer the look of my Infinity models over Space Marines, but:

I think that GW models are more practical as game pieces, especially for Warhammer.
GW models are easier to build, paint and convert (which is helpful to beginners), say what you will about oversized pauldrons, but they are a nice space to paint a symbol or designating colour.
GW models are also tougher, which (like painting and assembly) is less important the fewer models you use a game.
Finally, I can look at a 40k table from 4" away and recognise what is on the table and what the WYSIWIG load out is. With Infinity I can maybe see the type of weapon (launcher, rifle and maybe HMG or sniper rifle), and the size (i.e. silhouette), maybe if I am very familiar with those models I can make out a few. Usually I have to be at the table and playing to see the models decently. Which, again, is fine if you have less than 20 models on the table. In a game of Warhammer I want to be able to see what's what at a glance.
Also note that one of GW's aims is creating a spectacle, which the heroic (scale and sculpt) models are better at (Infinity tables though... ).

What do you mean by 'spectacle'?

because what I see is a crowd of little kids playing dress up with those proportions.


Space Marines are depicted as pinheads in artwork but as bobbleheads in the minis. I'm not a fan of either

Maximus Bitch wrote:

What do you mean by 'spectacle'?

because what I see is a crowd of little kids playing dress up with those proportions.


Space Marines are depicted as pinheads in artwork but as bobbleheads in the minis. I'm not a fan of either

GUYS! HEY GUYS!
DID YOU KNOW THAT Maximus Bitch THINKS GW'S PROPORTIONS MAKE THE MINI'S LOOK LIKE CHILDREN?!
HE MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN CLEAR OR SAID IT ENOUGH!
NOW YOU ALL KNOW!

Sorry you don't like them. A table full of mini's looks spectacular; even more so if you don't have to bend over to make out what is what. Extra points if the armies look heroic and/or badass.

I agree with others about IG being scaled down rather than SM being scaled up. In my anecdotal experience most IG players think that the current plastics look to big and bulky. I guess there are fluffy reasons for the Catachans to be a bunch of giant bodybuilders, but what's up with the Cadians? Reducing the size of IG would make Marines look bigger in comparison.

I also think they could introduce a line of Ork Yoofs. Make them Strength and Weapon Skill 3, and a little bigger than a Catachan but a little smaller than a current ork boy. Kind of like the Gorkamorka era orks. Give them crummier weapons but make them cost less than ork boyz. Then bump up the current ork boyz to Strength 4 and make them cost a few more points. That way orks get a new kit (everyone has a gazillion of the current boyz set), a good option for running horde armies and are gigantic boyz are no longer Strength 3. Space Marines get a side benefit of looking appropriately big compared to the Yoofs.

I really dislike GW's 'heroic proportions on a lot of things. Space marines look silly, and Cadians look awful because they're made to ridiculous comparison. And it isn't just a matter of size, it really is about proportion. The massive heads and hands and bulky forms really just make things look like they came out of a fisher price catalogue.

The problem, however, is that if GW were to go down the route of rescaling their range, they'd have to basically cover everything at this point. It's funny, because you see occasional releases that show GW themselves want to move away from that aesthetic, like the new Custodians and sisters, but the main bulk of things remain the same. I wouldn't be surprised if the artists and sculptors at GW feel similarly frustrated for this.

Personally, I cannot stand most of GW's human(like) offerings anymore. Some Eldar and Dark Eldar pieces are nice, but I just can't take super soldiers that can't properly bend their knees, move their legs or get up once they fall over seriously. Not to mention that the plastic Cadians were bad when they were released almost twenty years ago and only got worse since then. A crying shame, since the metals before them were very decent for their time and we could have gone that way, if not somebody looked at the Catachans and said to himself "Yes, that's what a viable human being looks like."

In any case I don't wish for GW to drop its Heroic styling, simply because there are people that enjoy it and want it that way. I'm not one of them, though, so I wished there were more manifacturers in 28mm Non-Historicals that produced high quality miniatures that are a bit more on the realistic side. Going completely realistic isn't the way either, in my opinion, since miniatures tend to look a bit boring and goofy in their own right if you try to scale everything "realistically". A bit of exagerration is both necessary and greatly enhances the end product, much like comics needed to find a spot between 90s Rob Liefeld Sixbloodbacks and hyperrealistic snorefests. There is a certain sweetspot where the miniature isn't properly true scaled, but also a far cry from the bobbleheads and gorillahands of Heroic Land and I'd wish we'd see more miniatures hit that place. Many LotRSB miniatures, most of Infinity and several Malifaux lines hit that spot and I think it looks perfect for the scale. I do have great hopes for 32mm though, since many sculptors seem to aim for exactly that there and women's faces are seemingly much easier to sculpt as recognizable females.

I tend to agree that normal humans should be sized down a bit, if only to make Space Marines actually look somewhat closer to how they actually are in the fluff. Seven foot tall supermen should stand a bit taller than your standard Cadian.

 DarkBlack wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:

What do you mean by 'spectacle'?

because what I see is a crowd of little kids playing dress up with those proportions.


Space Marines are depicted as pinheads in artwork but as bobbleheads in the minis. I'm not a fan of either

GUYS! HEY GUYS!
DID YOU KNOW THAT Maximus Bitch THINKS GW'S PROPORTIONS MAKE THE MINI'S LOOK LIKE CHILDREN?!
HE MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN CLEAR OR SAID IT ENOUGH!
NOW YOU ALL KNOW!

Sorry you don't like them. A table full of mini's looks spectacular; even more so if you don't have to bend over to make out what is what. Extra points if the armies look heroic and/or badass.

Yes I had to make it clear because people just seem to bypass it.

I just feel that they'd look more grown up and handsome if they had adult proportions

Not 'true scale', because I'm a fan of the idea that some of the accounts of Space Marine stature are somewhat exaggerated.

I do, however, think they need to knock off the whole 'bowlegged Space Marine' thing. The way that Deathwatch Veterans and Rubrics were done is an improvement over the legs of before... where Space Marines look like they're all dropping a Legionary Log in their power armor.

And FFS, someone needs to slim up the Guardsmen a bit, get the team from Forge World to handle that, because at least Kriegers and Elysians have a proper human scale.

I agree that Malifaux has pushed back in the opposite direction for the most part. It is interesting to see them keeping up a highly stylized line without using the standard way to stylize them. Oh, and Dark Eldar Wyches have just about the same ankle troubles that you might find in some of Malifaux's more dynamic sculpts- just remember that Malifaux's style relies on a lot of extremely small bits.


On proper True Scale minis- I think Dark Sword makes some really beautiful ones that come close (they still have some artistic exaggerations, but fewer than I've seen in every other lines- especially the George R. R. Martin minis that it turns out are going to be in a war game soon).

One of the big things that True Scale would help with is the women. "Heroic" proportions exaggerate anatomy in a way that we typically read as male attributes (the wide shoulders and huge hands and feet). That's one of the reasons why just swapping out the heads on Cadians doesn't really work out very well. If they were to move away from Heroic scale, we could see a lot more of GW's women would both fit in better and look more convincingly feminine.



Wel;l proportioned Space Marines would look terrific. And I don't mean to make them all huge- just make their heads, shoulder breadth and hand sizes into something I might believe is human.

I really love some of the artwork where space marines aren't oversized midgets.

Like these pieces of art:








I feel the worst offenders in GW's line right now are the Cadians, and I really would prefer some more delicate anatomy.

 odinsgrandson wrote:
I agree that Malifaux has pushed back in the opposite direction for the most part. It is interesting to see them keeping up a highly stylized line without using the standard way to stylize them. Oh, and Dark Eldar Wyches have just about the same ankle troubles that you might find in some of Malifaux's more dynamic sculpts- just remember that Malifaux's style relies on a lot of extremely small bits.

I don't have nearly as much problem with Malifaux's proportions because they don't look as awkward and clumsy to me. They actually look stylised, whereas so many of GW's models just look awkwardly broad and bobble headed.

 Galef wrote:
Heroic Scale doesn't bother me as much as scale creep. For example, why does GW insist on rebasing T3 1W models on 32mm bases?
32's look great for Marine, but 75% of the Deamon Infantry models should stay on 25mm. And don't get me started on Seekers, who are as large as a Space marine bike, yet only T3, 1W....ridiculous.

This is why I use the new Blue Horrors as my Pinks. I never liked the size of the plastic Pink Horrors. The new Blues are the same size as the old metal Pinks, so they are a perfect fit.
The plastic Bloodthirster and Lord of Change, while amazing looking models are a bit too big for their stats.

Why does every model that gets updated from metal/finecast into plastic have to have a seemingly mandatory 20% or more size increase?
This is a game of MINIatures, yet we keep getting BIGatures.

That's not scale creep, that's GW remaking the models without the limitations of white metal.

The thirster and lord of change were always that size in forgeworld, they only looked tiny and dumb in 40k metal.

It's like the Eldar avatar, the metal version is an ugly dwarf.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Maximus Bitch wrote:

 feltmonkey wrote:
No-one else sees them that way, Maximus.

I don't think that my suggestion is absurd.

in fact, I don't think it's even subjective.

look at the proportions of a child, or a short person, then at the proportions of a reasonably tall grown man.

now look at a mini. the tough manly men we see in the artwork have been reduced to kids playing soldiers. or dwarfs, given the gnarly faces

Most people don't see it that way
I've never once heard anyone mention kiddy or child like proportions when talking about those miniatures.
It's mostly in your head and you're obsessing about that detail so it seems huge to you.

But really, nobody cares.