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 Charistoph wrote:

Ceann wrote:I think that you are missing my point.

When you are deploying in your deployment phase, all of the units are being deployed at the same time, regardless of when you physically put them on the table is not relevant. At the end of the phase, all of those units finish deploying. Anything that was not deploying is put in reserves.

I am not missing your point. If you actually read the points I wrote, I addressed this point. Wherein does it state that units deploying in deployment are being "deployed at the same time"?

Ceann wrote:1. UNITS, not unit.
3. THEY, is more than one unit.

If there is only one unit present, then no Ally rules are being called upon, so no reason to enforce.

Ceann wrote:2. Deploy/deploying with 12" of EACH OTHER
4. Summoning only has one unit performing the action deploy/deploying, not two.

The Conjuror is already deployed, otherwise they would not be able to use the Power. The other unit is attempting to deploy. The second has to be deployed within 12" of the first. What in the rulebook makes this any different between putting a Devilfish on the table and a Carnifex right next to it during deployment?

So, unless you can demonstrate your pre-point of all units being deployed at the same time during deployment to be valid, all you have is RAI.

Roknar wrote:There is no definition in the book as to what exactly they mean by deploying for battle. Reading between the lines though seems to indicate that they are referring to the deployment phase.
With your definition, deploying for battle is identical to deploying full stop. That means you could read the CTA as "units...cannot deploy within 12" of each other when they are deploying" which is completely redundant.
Writing redundant rules isn't exactly a rare thing with GW but still, it makes more sense when reading it with the deployment phase in mind.

Either way, there is no way to definitively rule one way or the other on what "deploying for battle" really means.

That's my point. Without a way to differentiate "deploying for battle" for a Fortification, a Deep Striking Terminator unit, and a Conjured Daemon unit, we rather have to treat them as the same.

The rulebook uses "deploy" when units are placed on the table. So, until I can identify that "for battle" is exclusive to the deployment phase, I must consider it in the same light as I would for a Deep Striking unit.

doctortom wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Not really. It no more addresses the CTA situation than Drop Pod's Open Top addresses restrictions against Charging after Arriving From Reserves or Arriving From Deep Strike. Just being allowed to use the power doesn't mean the units are not held accountable to the rest of the rules.

That's not an apt comparison. Even if you can't charge after arriving from reserves or arriving from deep strike, you DO get to arrive from reserves or deep strike. You are given permission to summon. If you summon you get an automatic mishap if you apply the CTA allies rules. There's no sense in specifying they can summon if they can't summon and get them on the board.

Quite an apt comparison. You were stating that since they were given permission to Summon Daemons, they would override the CTA rules, even though it is never referenced by the Power, the FAQ, or the CTA rules in any form. The FAQ doesn't do anything more to stop me from Conjuring that Daemon unit on to Impassable Terrain, either, should it override that as well?

Open-Topped Vehicles provide the Assault Vehicle rule which allows a unit that Disembarked this turn to Charge. It makes no reference to Reserves Charging, nor do the restrictions on Reserves Charging ever mention units being Disembarked from a Transport. Deep Strike does, but only to go so far as to say that the disembarked unit is Deep Striking, too, nothing about if the Vehicle is Open-Topped.

Do we casually allow permissions to override restrictions they do not address, or do we consider those restrictions in play until they are directly addressed by the rule in question?

BRB Page 132

Standard Deployment Method.

1. The players roll off. The winner of the roll-off decides who will deploy first and will deploy second.

2. The side DEPLOYING first must set up ALL units in their army.

3. The the other side sets up all the units in their army.

4.The player that DEPLOYED first can choose to take the first or second turn.

On step two, deploying and all would indicate to me that it is being done at the same time.
Step four enforces this by notated that they were deploying and are now deployed.
THEY, the summoning unit and the unit summoned, are not deploying.

MattKing wrote:Interesting. I'm not declaring for RAW either way, but consider this:
If I have a BA squad deep strike on turn 2, as part of the formation that allows them to make a disordered charge from deepstrike, could they ever successfully charge a CTE army? If they are deploying then they could never get withing 12" of the enemy (out of charge range). Would this actually trigger a deep strike mishap? If I drop BA hammernator squad 6" from the enemy HQ, and they do not scatter, is this therefore an invalid deployment RAW?

Come the Apocalypse rules only apply when the units are part of the same army. Ally rules do not care what your opponent has in his army. Might as well try to Embark in his Transports if you are of the same Faction as trying to enforce this level of interaction.

Ceann wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Ceann wrote:I think that you are missing my point.

When you are deploying in your deployment phase, all of the units are being deployed at the same time, regardless of when you physically put them on the table is not relevant. At the end of the phase, all of those units finish deploying. Anything that was not deploying is put in reserves.

I am not missing your point. If you actually read the points I wrote, I addressed this point. Wherein does it state that units deploying in deployment are being "deployed at the same time"?

Ceann wrote:1. UNITS, not unit.
3. THEY, is more than one unit.

If there is only one unit present, then no Ally rules are being called upon, so no reason to enforce.

Ceann wrote:2. Deploy/deploying with 12" of EACH OTHER
4. Summoning only has one unit performing the action deploy/deploying, not two.

The Conjuror is already deployed, otherwise they would not be able to use the Power. The other unit is attempting to deploy. The second has to be deployed within 12" of the first. What in the rulebook makes this any different between putting a Devilfish on the table and a Carnifex right next to it during deployment?

So, unless you can demonstrate your pre-point of all units being deployed at the same time during deployment to be valid, all you have is RAI.

BRB Page 132

Standard Deployment Method.

1. The players roll off. The winner of the roll-off decides who will deploy first and will deploy second.

2. The side DEPLOYING first must set up ALL units in their army.

3. The the other side sets up all the units in their army.

4.The player that DEPLOYED first can choose to take the first or second turn.

On step two, deploying and all would indicate to me that it is being done at the same time.
Step four enforces this by notated that they were deploying and are now deployed.
THEY, the summoning unit and the unit summoned, are not deploying.

Seeing nothing about "at the same time" here. During the same time period, sure, but that's not at the same time. All of a unit's shooting is done during the same time period, and a unit's Boltguns would be considered firing at the same time, but the same unit's Meltaguns would be considered firing at a different time. Other units would be firing in the same time period, but they are definitely NOT considered firing at the same time.

Sorry. What I meant to convey was: If deepstriking is deployment is this still possible? Isn't there a general rule about not deploying within 12" of an enemy unit? Or is that just scouts?

The game has not yet started in the deployment phase, comparing the shooting phase, or an in game phase to deployment is disingenuous.

Once the game starts, all of the units are deployed. There is no reason to assume there is a sequence associated to the deployment phase.

The step states deploying and all.
Once the game has started THEY are no longer deploying.

If you put all your models in a pile in the middle of your deployment zone, they are not considered deployed. You are asserting they are locked in place once they touch the table. This is not the case.
Once you finish moving them around to the location you want them to be and complete the phase, they then complete the process of deploying. There is no way to identify a deployment order, so when the phase completes they will all have deployed at once.

 Charistoph wrote:

Roknar wrote:There is no definition in the book as to what exactly they mean by deploying for battle. Reading between the lines though seems to indicate that they are referring to the deployment phase.
With your definition, deploying for battle is identical to deploying full stop. That means you could read the CTA as "units...cannot deploy within 12" of each other when they are deploying" which is completely redundant.
Writing redundant rules isn't exactly a rare thing with GW but still, it makes more sense when reading it with the deployment phase in mind.

Either way, there is no way to definitively rule one way or the other on what "deploying for battle" really means.

That's my point. Without a way to differentiate "deploying for battle" for a Fortification, a Deep Striking Terminator unit, and a Conjured Daemon unit, we rather have to treat them as the same.

The rulebook uses "deploy" when units are placed on the table. So, until I can identify that "for battle" is exclusive to the deployment phase, I must consider it in the same light as I would for a Deep Striking unit.

Fair enough. I'm just saying there is more evidence to suggest that they mean the deployment phase than not.
They only use it twice to my knowledge. Once in the pregame section which could mean either, and once with CTA which, although not impossible, makes little sense when using the synonym interpretation.
RAI seems clear enough for me in this case.

 Roknar wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Roknar wrote:There is no definition in the book as to what exactly they mean by deploying for battle. Reading between the lines though seems to indicate that they are referring to the deployment phase.
With your definition, deploying for battle is identical to deploying full stop. That means you could read the CTA as "units...cannot deploy within 12" of each other when they are deploying" which is completely redundant.
Writing redundant rules isn't exactly a rare thing with GW but still, it makes more sense when reading it with the deployment phase in mind.

Either way, there is no way to definitively rule one way or the other on what "deploying for battle" really means.

That's my point. Without a way to differentiate "deploying for battle" for a Fortification, a Deep Striking Terminator unit, and a Conjured Daemon unit, we rather have to treat them as the same.

The rulebook uses "deploy" when units are placed on the table. So, until I can identify that "for battle" is exclusive to the deployment phase, I must consider it in the same light as I would for a Deep Striking unit.

Fair enough. I'm just saying there is more evidence to suggest that they mean the deployment phase than not.
They only use it twice to my knowledge. Once in the pregame section which could mean either, and once with CTA which, although not impossible, makes little sense when using the synonym interpretation.
RAI seems clear enough for me in this case.

If we have to treat them all as the same, then counting the deploying phase as all coming in at the same time, would be counting them the same, which by the wording of CTA is exactly where it would apply.

Ceann wrote:
The game has not yet started in the deployment phase, comparing the shooting phase, or an in game phase to deployment is disingenuous.

Once the game starts, all of the units are deployed. There is no reason to assume there is a sequence associated to the deployment phase.

The step states deploying and all.
Once the game has started THEY are no longer deploying.

DEEP STRIKE MISHAP

"If any of the models in a Deep Striking unit cannot be deployed, because at least one model would land partially or fully off the table, in impassable terrain, on top of a friendly model, or on top of or within 1" of an enemy mode, something has gone wrong."

THEY are still deploying later in the game, when they come in from Reserves and through Deep Strik.

BRB Page 135 under preparing reserves, last sentence, states...

If it is impossible to deploy them during the Deployment step of Preparing for Battle.

This would indicate that once the game has started you have completed doing anything "for battle" and the battle has now started.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doctortom wrote:

Ceann wrote:
The game has not yet started in the deployment phase, comparing the shooting phase, or an in game phase to deployment is disingenuous.

Once the game starts, all of the units are deployed. There is no reason to assume there is a sequence associated to the deployment phase.

The step states deploying and all.
Once the game has started THEY are no longer deploying.

DEEP STRIKE MISHAP

"If any of the models in a Deep Striking unit cannot be deployed, because at least one model would land partially or fully off the table, in impassable terrain, on top of a friendly model, or on top of or within 1" of an enemy mode, something has gone wrong."

THEY are still deploying later in the game, when they come in from Reserves and through Deep Strik.

I am aware of the deep strike rules.
However the wording of CTA is worded so that it only applies to UNITS, performing the action, of DEPLOYING within 12" of EACH OTHER.
If you are deep striking, the other unit has already deployed, the summoning unit is not deploying, so it is not deploying within 12" of each other.
A single unit is deploying and a single unit is deployed.
There are not UNITS performing the action of deploying.
The only time units would both be deploying at the same time, is during the deployment step.

MattKing wrote:Sorry. What I meant to convey was: If deepstriking is deployment is this still possible? Isn't there a general rule about not deploying within 12" of an enemy unit? Or is that just scouts?

Units cannot get within 1" of another unit they are not Charging. If you end up 1/2" from an enemy model while Deep Striking, you Mishap.

Infiltrators cannot deploy within 18" of an enemy unit that can draw line of sight to them, or within 12" of a unit that cannot draw line of sight to them.

Ceann wrote:The game has not yet started in the deployment phase, comparing the shooting phase, or an in game phase to deployment is disingenuous.

Once the game starts, all of the units are deployed. There is no reason to assume there is a sequence associated to the deployment phase.

The step states deploying and all.
Once the game has started THEY are no longer deploying.

If you put all your models in a pile in the middle of your deployment zone, they are not considered deployed. You are asserting they are locked in place once they touch the table. This is not the case.
Once you finish moving them around to the location you want them to be and complete the phase, they then complete the process of deploying. There is no way to identify a deployment order, so when the phase completes they will all have deployed at once.

Sorry, but that is not but HYWPI.

I used the Shooting Phase to demonstrate how something is considered "at the same time" in the rulebook as that phrase is actually used in the rules of the Shooting Sequence.

That the game has started or not is irrelevant unless we have rules to make them relevant. Nothing I have found nor that you have presented makes deploying during deployment as "all at the same time". Especially when we have to consider how the rules for Infiltrate and Scout work, and all of which is part of deployment.

Roknar wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Roknar wrote:There is no definition in the book as to what exactly they mean by deploying for battle. Reading between the lines though seems to indicate that they are referring to the deployment phase.
With your definition, deploying for battle is identical to deploying full stop. That means you could read the CTA as "units...cannot deploy within 12" of each other when they are deploying" which is completely redundant.
Writing redundant rules isn't exactly a rare thing with GW but still, it makes more sense when reading it with the deployment phase in mind.

Either way, there is no way to definitively rule one way or the other on what "deploying for battle" really means.

That's my point. Without a way to differentiate "deploying for battle" for a Fortification, a Deep Striking Terminator unit, and a Conjured Daemon unit, we rather have to treat them as the same.

The rulebook uses "deploy" when units are placed on the table. So, until I can identify that "for battle" is exclusive to the deployment phase, I must consider it in the same light as I would for a Deep Striking unit.

Fair enough. I'm just saying there is more evidence to suggest that they mean the deployment phase than not.
They only use it twice to my knowledge. Once in the pregame section which could mean either, and once with CTA which, although not impossible, makes little sense when using the synonym interpretation.
RAI seems clear enough for me in this case.

Yeah, it's probably RAI (and I even stated as such earlier), however the phrase used with deployment is for the entire model collection called "the army", and as we know that when a rule is directed at a unit, it by no means requires that we consider the entire army in that consideration.

Ceann wrote:


I am aware of the deep strike rules.
However the wording of CTA is worded so that it only applies to UNITS, performing the action, of DEPLOYING within 12" of EACH OTHER.
If you are deep striking, the other unit has already deployed, the summoning unit is not deploying, so it is not deploying within 12" of each other.
A single unit is deploying and a single unit is deployed.
There are not UNITS performing the action of deploying.
The only time units would both be deploying at the same time, is during the deployment step.

Units deploying - are any of your units deploying? Yes. Is it deploying within 12" of the unit summoning it. YES, is is being DEPLOYED within 12" of EACH OTHER.

Any unit that is on the board has already deployed, so by your argument you would never get to apply the range restriction as the unit would always be deploying in relation to a unit that has deployed. As you say, it only cares about UNITS deploying, not ARMIES deploying. Your army could still be in the deployment phase, but any units on the board have already deployed. You aren't given permission to deploy two units simultaneously according to the rules, so going by what you say, you would never fulfill the requirement you have set up, and you could always deploy units anywhere near CTA allies (as long as they weren't within 1", since treating them as enemy units still applies).

BRB Page 132.

---------------------------
Standard Deployment Method.

1. The players roll off. The winner of the roll-off decides who will deploy first and will deploy second.

2. The side DEPLOYING first must set up ALL units in their army.

3. The the other side sets up all the units in their army.

4.The player that DEPLOYED first can choose to take the first or second turn.
---------------------------

BRB Page 135, under preparing reserves, last sentence.

---------------------------
If it is impossible to deploy them during the Deployment step of Preparing for Battle.
---------------------------

BRB Page 127 CTA

---------------------------
Units that will only ally "CTA" are treated exactly like Desperate Allies, but cannot deploy within 12" of each other when they are deploying for battle.
---------------------------

Page 135 tells us that the deployment step is the deployment period of "for battle" anything not deployed then is either destroyed if it cannot move or placed in reserves.

Page 132 tells us the steps for deployment, the actual rules, and shows that once a players turn starts the units are deployed and are no longer deploying. At some point between step 2 and step 4 all of player 1's units performed the action deploying. We also have a GIGANTIC full color page BRB 115 notating this RULES SECTION is for preparing for battle.

You cannot use the shooting phase to demonstrate, the shooting phase is an unrelated rules section to preparing for battle.
Reserves are part of the preparing for battle section.

Hence my argument.

THEY, "the units", cannot deploy within 12" of each other, when deploying for battle.

This deployment is taking place in the preparing for battle section of the rule book. That is the only place the deployment step exists. There is no deployment step during the game.

Once the game has started, a unit on the table has already deployed, for battle, a unit in reserves is using the reserve rules from the preparing for battle section, has not deployed for battle, it is now doing so.

There is no contention because it is not deploying within 12" of a unit that is deploying for battle. They have already done so.
The 4 steps of the deployment method do not indicate whether there is a sequence or not but it is the deployment step, it would be hard to argue any unit on the board in the deployment step is not deploying. The CTA are based around UNITS taking the action OF deploying, the units are not considered deployed until you end the step. Once you end the deployment step, them all being deployed at the same time would be a reasonably logical conclusion as the deployment step allowing deployment has ended.

The quote from page 135, Deployment Step of Preparing for Battle, makes me willing to agree with you that when CTA talks about deploying for battle, they mean during the deployment step of preparing for battle. They hadn't used "deploying for battle" elsewhere in the obvious locations so that it's defined. (I think that was some of the issue Charistoph was having - there hadn't been a definition for :"deploying for battle" indicated before)

The rest of the argument, about them already being deployed, didn't convince me because any unit on the board (and we're talking about units, not armies) has already been deployed. Likewise, the comment "there is no deployment step during the game" doesn't matter without that definition of Deployment step of preparing for battle from page 135, because otherwise "deploying for battle" is an undefined term, and could have as easily applied to a unit coming out of reserves and appearing in the battle for the first time.

The definition, though, does indicate that it looks like their intention is for the CTA restrictions on deployment should apply during only the deployment phase during the game. Thanks for finding the one quote to indicate what deploying for battle is!

Ceann wrote:
Page 135 tells us that the deployment step is the deployment period of "for battle" anything not deployed then is either destroyed if it cannot move or placed in reserves.

Page 132 tells us the steps for deployment, the actual rules, and shows that once a players turn starts the units are deployed and are no longer deploying. At some point between step 2 and step 4 all of player 1's units performed the action deploying. We also have a GIGANTIC full color page BRB 115 notating this RULES SECTION is for preparing for battle.

Conflation or truncation. It is under "Preparing for Battle". Deployment is the last step in setting up the stage of a battle, or "preparing". Going from that deployment is "preparing for the game".

A unit deploying from Reserves is now being deployed for the battle, or being "deployed for the game". Same connotations here by using the same language in the same form.

Ceann wrote:
You cannot use the shooting phase to demonstrate, the shooting phase is an unrelated rules section to preparing for battle.
Reserves are part of the preparing for battle section.

Pay attention. I have explained it twice. Don't go Col_Ignored on me here. In order to treat something as happening "at the same time", and it doesn't involve and actual physical interaction as such, it needs to state "at the same time". The best example of this in the rulebook is in the Shooting Phase which demonstrates the concept.

It's called establishing semantics and precedence. I am trying to teach you where to look for examples of use in this language and how it is used in this form.

Ceann wrote:
Once the game has started, a unit on the table has already deployed, for battle, a unit in reserves is using the reserve rules from the preparing for battle section, has not deployed for battle, it is now doing so.

That has been the point.

Ceann wrote:
There is no contention because it is not deploying within 12" of a unit that is deploying for battle. They have already done so.
The 4 steps of the deployment method do not indicate whether there is a sequence or not but it is the deployment step, it would be hard to argue any unit on the board in the deployment step is not deploying. The CTA are based around UNITS taking the action OF deploying, the units are not considered deployed until you end the step. Once you end the deployment step, them all being deployed at the same time would be a reasonably logical conclusion as the deployment step allowing deployment has ended.

Actually to use the language in such a literal manner, they would have to be deployed at the same time. In order for me to justify it any differently would require specific instruction which you have not provided.

And if deployment is enough "all at the same time", how would you explain this:

INFILTRATE
...
Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units (friend and foe) have been deployed. If both sides have Infiltrators, the players roll-off and the winner decides who goes first, then alternate deploying these
units.

Scout
After both sides have deployed (including Infiltrators), but before the first player begins his first turn, a unit containing at least one model with this special rule can choose to redeploy.

Can Scouts and Infiltrators ignore CTA restrictions then, or can they never use their rule as they have to wait until "all at the same time" deployment is done, by which the game starts?

Edit: One other point, the CTA rules do not state "when they both deploying for battle". If it did, then the "at the same time" concept would apply.

I am not going Col on you don't worry lol.

Infiltrate and Scouting are special rules and would therefore ignore the basic rules set in the preparing for battle section. This would technically work out to Infiltrate and Scouting treating CTA as Desperate Allies, effectively.

I understand what you are saying about the verbiage for "at the same time" is not present.

However during the deployment phase, you are deploying or not deploying, or would you argue that there are units on the table in the deployment phase that are not deploying?

If you count a unit, as deployed, during your deployment step, then you have finished deploying and all the rest of your units go into reserve. This is the same foolery that was attempted with the chainfist/bike. There is no rule telling you to deploy your units one a time, there is only rules tell you to deploy ALL of units. Then a later rule notated anything not deployed goes into reserves.

Your units in the deployment step have TWO states they can be in, deploying or deployed. Once you count any unit as a deployed unit then you are on step 4 of the page provided and everything else you have yet to place would automatically be in reserves.

Step 2. The side DEPLOYING first, must setup all the units in their army.
Step 4. The player that DEPLOYED first.

This clearly shows us that once you complete step 2 the units have deployed, if you count a unit as deployed in step 2 then you have deployed all of your army that you wished to deploy. It doesn't say "at the same time" but there is no other time where a unit can be on the table and in a deployed state and another unit on the table and in a deploying state, except after the game has started.

 Charistoph wrote:

Ceann wrote:
Page 135 tells us that the deployment step is the deployment period of "for battle" anything not deployed then is either destroyed if it cannot move or placed in reserves.

Page 132 tells us the steps for deployment, the actual rules, and shows that once a players turn starts the units are deployed and are no longer deploying. At some point between step 2 and step 4 all of player 1's units performed the action deploying. We also have a GIGANTIC full color page BRB 115 notating this RULES SECTION is for preparing for battle.

Conflation or truncation. It is under "Preparing for Battle". Deployment is the last step in setting up the stage of a battle, or "preparing". Going from that deployment is "preparing for the game".

It may be a conflation, but I would cede that it does indicate what GW is referring to when they mention "deploying for battle" elsewhere in the Come the Apocalypse section, as opposed to merely "deploying"

Ceann wrote:Infiltrate and Scouting are special rules and would therefore ignore the basic rules set in the preparing for battle section. This would technically work out to Infiltrate and Scouting treating CTA as Desperate Allies, effectively.

No, they would only ignore the things which they are stated to ignore. Nothing in them is stated to ignore the "deploying at the same time" concept you are putting forth.

Ceann wrote:I understand what you are saying about the verbiage for "at the same time" is not present.

Thank you. You kept going on about how they were different phases as if that mattered. It was getting me a little concerned.

Ceann wrote:However during the deployment phase, you are deploying or not deploying, or would you argue that there are units on the table in the deployment phase that are not deploying?

In order for a unit to be "deploying", you would be in the process of putting its models on the table. When you are finished putting the models on the table, it has been "deployed". If there are no models of the unit on the table, they are not declared to be in a Transport, or declared to be in Reserves, they are "not deployed".

This is going by the use of the term "deploy" in Deployment, the various Outflank rules, Deep Strike, and the Reserves rules.

Ceann wrote:If you count a unit, as deployed, during your deployment step, then you have finished deploying and all the rest of your units go into reserve.

I'm going to need a quote for that one. In fact, it tends to be that deployment is done when all the units that you were going to use were deployed and have Scouted.

Ceann wrote:This is the same foolery that was attempted with the chainfist/bike. There is no rule telling you to deploy your units one a time, there is only rules tell you to deploy ALL of units. Then a later rule notated anything not deployed goes into reserves.

No, a different tom-follery is going on. You are saying that all of the units are being deployed at the same time while providing no written statement that this is in consideration.

Remember, in order to be considered happening "at the same time" we need instructions telling us to consider them happening "at the same time." It doesn't go the other way.

Ceann wrote:Your units in the deployment step have TWO states they can be in, deploying or deployed. Once you count any unit as a deployed unit then you are on step 4 of the page provided and everything else you have yet to place would automatically be in reserves.

Step 2. The side DEPLOYING first, must setup all the units in their army.
Step 4. The player that DEPLOYED first.

This clearly shows us that once you complete step 2 the units have deployed, if you count a unit as deployed in step 2 then you have deployed all of your army that you wished to deploy. It doesn't say "at the same time" but there is no other time where a unit can be on the table and in a deployed state and another unit on the table and in a deploying state, except after the game has started.

You are conflating "side" with "units" in that quote. This is the same as considering "army" and "units" the same thing. They are not the same thing, so that consideration is out the door.

While you are deploying your army, your units are transitioning from being "not deployed" to "deployed", "Reserves", or (in the case of OP) "Awaiting Conjuration".

While your unit is Charging, you have an initial Charging model which moves, and if that initial Charging model has successfully Charged, the rest of the models are then moved in.

So, do not associate what you are in the middle of doing with what the individual units have, or have not, done, they are not even on the same level of considerations.

doctortom wrote:It may be a conflation, but I would cede that it does indicate what GW is referring to when they mention "deploying for battle" elsewhere in the Come the Apocalypse section, as opposed to merely "deploying"

Sorry, but if deployment is part of "preparing for battle", then there is no required association with deployment for "deploying for battle".

In order for "preparing for battle" to associate "deploying for battle" with deployment, then deployment would be part "of battle" and happen after "preparing for battle" was complete, not the last thing to do for it. Consider what "preparing" means.

Therefore "for battle" can only mean "for the game". At which point, a Deathwing Terminator unit Deep Striking in is "deploying for battle", as they have not deployed yet for the game.

 Charistoph wrote:

Ceann wrote:Infiltrate and Scouting are special rules and would therefore ignore the basic rules set in the preparing for battle section. This would technically work out to Infiltrate and Scouting treating CTA as Desperate Allies, effectively.

No, they would only ignore the things which they are stated to ignore. Nothing in them is stated to ignore the "deploying at the same time" concept you are putting forth.

Ceann wrote:I understand what you are saying about the verbiage for "at the same time" is not present.

Thank you. You kept going on about how they were different phases as if that mattered. It was getting me a little concerned.

Ceann wrote:However during the deployment phase, you are deploying or not deploying, or would you argue that there are units on the table in the deployment phase that are not deploying?

In order for a unit to be "deploying", you would be in the process of putting its models on the table. When you are finished putting the models on the table, it has been "deployed". If there are no models of the unit on the table, they are not declared to be in a Transport, or declared to be in Reserves, they are "not deployed".

This is going by the use of the term "deploy" in Deployment, the various Outflank rules, Deep Strike, and the Reserves rules.

Ceann wrote:If you count a unit, as deployed, during your deployment step, then you have finished deploying and all the rest of your units go into reserve.

I'm going to need a quote for that one. In fact, it tends to be that deployment is done when all the units that you were going to use were deployed and have Scouted.

Ceann wrote:This is the same foolery that was attempted with the chainfist/bike. There is no rule telling you to deploy your units one a time, there is only rules tell you to deploy ALL of units. Then a later rule notated anything not deployed goes into reserves.

No, a different tom-follery is going on. You are saying that all of the units are being deployed at the same time while providing no written statement that this is in consideration.

Remember, in order to be considered happening "at the same time" we need instructions telling us to consider them happening "at the same time." It doesn't go the other way.

Ceann wrote:Your units in the deployment step have TWO states they can be in, deploying or deployed. Once you count any unit as a deployed unit then you are on step 4 of the page provided and everything else you have yet to place would automatically be in reserves.

Step 2. The side DEPLOYING first, must setup all the units in their army.
Step 4. The player that DEPLOYED first.

This clearly shows us that once you complete step 2 the units have deployed, if you count a unit as deployed in step 2 then you have deployed all of your army that you wished to deploy. It doesn't say "at the same time" but there is no other time where a unit can be on the table and in a deployed state and another unit on the table and in a deploying state, except after the game has started.

You are conflating "side" with "units" in that quote. This is the same as considering "army" and "units" the same thing. They are not the same thing, so that consideration is out the door.

While you are deploying your army, your units are transitioning from being "not deployed" to "deployed", "Reserves", or (in the case of OP) "Awaiting Conjuration".

While your unit is Charging, you have an initial Charging model which moves, and if that initial Charging model has successfully Charged, the rest of the models are then moved in.

So, do not associate what you are in the middle of doing with what the individual units have, or have not, done, they are not even on the same level of considerations.

doctortom wrote:It may be a conflation, but I would cede that it does indicate what GW is referring to when they mention "deploying for battle" elsewhere in the Come the Apocalypse section, as opposed to merely "deploying"

Sorry, but if deployment is part of "preparing for battle", then there is no required association with deployment for "deploying for battle".

In order for "preparing for battle" to associate "deploying for battle" with deployment, then deployment would be part "of battle" and happen after "preparing for battle" was complete, not the last thing to do for it. Consider what "preparing" means.

Therefore "for battle" can only mean "for the game". At which point, a Deathwing Terminator unit Deep Striking in is "deploying for battle", as they have not deployed yet for the game.

I think I have having some trouble identifying what you actual point of contention is.
The steps I listed are in the BRB as the steps for deploying, step 3 which I didn't note most recently is for your opponent to perform their own deployments.

I still think comparing in game actions, such as shooting and charging to rules prior to the game starting is disingenuous. Charging has language and rules specific to charging, just as wargear has language and rules specific to wargear. If we went through and picked out all of the unique scenarios as examples we would find they all had nothing to be compared against.

So in step 2, your units are either being put onto the board to be deployed or are being placed in reserves, this would be the process of deploying.
We are only provided ONE STEP to put the models on the table, place some in reserves and then declare we are finished. The rules can only look at your deployment when you are actually finished manually moving around the models and placing them.

If Step 2 is your deployment phase, Step 3 is the other player's deployment phase, and Step 4 notates you have DEPLOYED. Then I think it is safe to say that at any point you decide consider a unit as "deployed" instead of deploying you are then finished with Step 2. This means that during your Step 2 as the player you do not have any opportunity to, deploy unit 1, deploy unit 2, deploy unit 3. They are ALL deploying and when you are done with the phase they all deployed, there is nothing in the rules that indicates there is a space of time where you have a deployed unit and a deploying unit on the table at once.

Also deepstrike mishaps give the reasons allowed for a mishap...

BRB 162.

"because at least one model would land partially or fully off the table, in impassable terrain, on top of a friendly model, or on top of or within 1" of an enemy model."

It has no note or mention of any regard for the CTA rules, it lists the circumstances under which it cannot be deployed. Deepstrike being a special rule also supercedes the standard rules for deploying.

Ceann wrote:
I think I have having some trouble identifying what you actual point of contention is.

I honestly do not know why not. I have stated it several times.

The limitation in Come the Apocalypse is when units deploy. Not you as a player. Not your army. Just the individual units. In this consideration, I do not agree that is when multiple units of different Factions Deploy, because it just states units, not multiple units. The reason units is mentioned is because Ally rules, including Come the Apocalypse, are only invoked when two (or more) units from different Factions interact. All the units follow this interaction, not just one or two.

In addition to that, you are combining the concept of the condition of your army to that of the condition of the individual units. Just because you are deploying your army does not ever mean that your units are still deploying. That's poor reasoning.

Ceann wrote:
The steps I listed are in the BRB as the steps for deploying, step 3 which I didn't note most recently is for your opponent to perform their own deployments.

Which wasn't addressed or stated as a problem by me.

Ceann wrote:
I still think comparing in game actions, such as shooting and charging to rules prior to the game starting is disingenuous. Charging has language and rules specific to charging, just as wargear has language and rules specific to wargear. If we went through and picked out all of the unique scenarios as examples we would find they all had nothing to be compared against.

It's about learning how the language and concepts work in the rulebook. I am not trying to literally transplant the rules, but trying to help you understand the concepts as I see them. I am assuming you are sufficiently familiar with those concepts to be able to use them as representatives of the concepts I am trying to convey.

Ceann wrote:
So in step 2, your units are either being put onto the board to be deployed or are being placed in reserves, this would be the process of deploying.
We are only provided ONE STEP to put the models on the table, place some in reserves and then declare we are finished. The rules can only look at your deployment when you are actually finished manually moving around the models and placing them.

If Step 2 is your deployment phase, Step 3 is the other player's deployment phase, and Step 4 notates you have DEPLOYED. Then I think it is safe to say that at any point you decide consider a unit as "deployed" instead of deploying you are then finished with Step 2. This means that during your Step 2 as the player you do not have any opportunity to, deploy unit 1, deploy unit 2, deploy unit 3. They are ALL deploying and when you are done with the phase they all deployed, there is nothing in the rules that indicates there is a space of time where you have a deployed unit and a deploying unit on the table at once.

Again, you are conflating (i.e. combining) the concepts of the army and the unit. You are considering what you are doing is what all the units are doing. Nothing in those steps ever states that the units are not deployed until you go to the next step. That is a fabrication without written support.

Here is from the final paragraph of Deployment:

Whichever method you use, models must either deploy within their deployment zone, or be held back in Reserve. Models can be deployed ‘inside’ buildings, fortifications, or Transport vehicles in their deployment zone, subject to their Transport Capacity. Units may not be deployed in impassable terrain. Note that models must be deployed fully within their deployment zone: you can’t have part of a model inside the deployment zone and part of the model outside it!

"Deploy" is being used in both present and past tenses at this point. This is the actual paragraph which talks about going through the process.

Ceann wrote:
Also deepstrike mishaps give the reasons allowed for a mishap...

BRB 162.

"because at least one model would land partially or fully off the table, in impassable terrain, on top of a friendly model, or on top of or within 1" of an enemy model."

It has no note or mention of any regard for the CTA rules, it lists the circumstances under which it cannot be deployed. Deepstrike being a special rule also supercedes the standard rules for deploying.

You chopped off with the first part, "If a unit cannot be deployed" as well, which is a consideration. Units cannot normally be within 1" of an enemy unit they are not Charging. Come the Apocalypse adds on to that 1" limit for deploying, does it not?

Can come the apocalypse allies summon daemons?

YES

When you present your roster to the person you are playing, you present the entire roster, at one time, you don't give it to them unit by unit on different sheets of paper.

If the units are not all deployed at the end of the deployment step, then assuming they deploy one a time in the order of your choice would be the only viable option, unless we are going to assign numbers to our units now and randomly deploy them via rolling dice. I find it to be more common sense it is one step starts with you deploying and ends when you deployed.

Anything other than that is the same scenario as the wargear before where it is assumed you can sequence things in some manner.

I mentioned step 3 to clarify that I hadn't left out something relevant.

The only rule that is from preparing for battle that translates into the game is reserves and that is because it explicitly notates that it starts happening during the game and when it starts happening. I understand again that this does not say "at the same time" however it also does not specify that there is a sequence.

If we look at our other lovely example the Terminator Captain, you had an instance where on his wargear it did not say "X wearing Terminator armor may" because he was already wearing it, thus making the first part of the text redundant and it simply said "X may". If we are going to compare terminology I would stick to terminology from the same chapter of rules or relevant to the action.

I am not intending to conflate or combine anything. We have two steps, one that states we are deploying and another that states we have deployed. The only action between those steps is our opponent deploying and that isn't relevant. Step 4 states deployed and if step 2 is deploying, then I don't see how being considered deployed at the end of step 2 is not the inevitable conclusion, there is no other time where you could be considering deployed.

As for the final paragraph, I don't see any issues with it. Deploy and deploying is the action of deployment. In order to count as deployed, you must deploy within the parameters it describes. Hence you cannot end your deployment step with a unit in impassable terrain, because it cannot be deploy there.

I chopped off the first but, I assumed it wasn't needed as it was the entire reason the topic was being discussed in the first place. The reasons listed after the first part are the reasons that are considered in order to qualify for a mishap.

Rolsheen wrote:Can come the apocalypse allies summon daemons?

YES

And then they run in to the point where units cannot deploy for battle within 12" of a unit they have a CTA relationship with, and therefore Mishap.

Many of the FAQ answers in the past have come across as, "Yes, you can, but it is stupid."

Ceann wrote:When you present your roster to the person you are playing, you present the entire roster, at one time, you don't give it to them unit by unit on different sheets of paper.

Irrelevant to the discussion at hand since no one has brought this up before as being a problem, one way or another.

Ceann wrote:If the units are not all deployed at the end of the deployment step, then assuming they deploy one a time in the order of your choice would be the only viable option, unless we are going to assign numbers to our units now and randomly deploy them via rolling dice. I find it to be more common sense it is one step starts with you deploying and ends when you deployed.

Your use of "deployed" in the first sentence carries one of two different connotations. First being that their status is changed to "deployed" at the end of the deployment step. The second is that they have gone through the "deploy" process and received a "deployed" status between the beginning and the end of the deployment step.

There are no rules stating that we have to keep a unit's status as "not deployed" till the end of the deployment phase/process. So, applying the first connotation is one without support.

The actual use of the term "deploy" by the rest of the rulebook indicates that a unit is deployed when it is placed on the table. It is not used in any other manner. In most cases, this is the physical models making up the units, while others the Transport they are Embarked on is the only physical model required, but the Embarked unit is still considered deployed. So, the second connotation is supported by the rest of the rulebook's use of the term.

Ceann wrote:Anything other than that is the same scenario as the wargear before where it is assumed you can sequence things in some manner.

Not really. Aside from Infiltrate and Scout's redeployment, there is no need for any type of sequencing, and it can be completely random.

But random or sequenced, why does their status only change at the end of deployment and what is the exact phrase which supports the timing of this status' change?

Ceann wrote:I mentioned step 3 to clarify that I hadn't left out something relevant.

And if the people you are discussing something with don't bring it up, it probably isn't worth bringing it up yourself. It provides an unnecessary tangent.

Ceann wrote:The only rule that is from preparing for battle that translates into the game is reserves and that is because it explicitly notates that it starts happening during the game and when it starts happening. I understand again that this does not say "at the same time" however it also does not specify that there is a sequence.

Hardly. The first thing under Preparing For Battle is "The Mission". That translates in to the game pretty well. The next is "The Armies" whose rules are covered in the previous section. Then comes "The Battlefield" which has HUGE ramifications on the game from deployment zones to Terrain. Then we finally get in to "Deployment" where units are placed on the table or in Reserves. From there it goes in to "First Turn" by which point, I think we're done preparing.

Ceann wrote: If we look at our other lovely example the Terminator Captain, you had an instance where on his wargear it did not say "X wearing Terminator armor may" because he was already wearing it, thus making the first part of the text redundant and it simply said "X may". If we are going to compare terminology I would stick to terminology from the same chapter of rules or relevant to the action.

You mean like "at the same time"? Or "I am in the process of doing this to my large group, so the smaller bits may have completed it on their own while I have been doing so"? They were relevant.

Ceann wrote:I am not intending to conflate or combine anything. We have two steps, one that states we are deploying and another that states we have deployed. The only action between those steps is our opponent deploying and that isn't relevant. Step 4 states deployed and if step 2 is deploying, then I don't see how being considered deployed at the end of step 2 is not the inevitable conclusion, there is no other time where you could be considering deployed.

You are conflating because you are treating as the status of your entire army as being the status of the individual units within them. While the Step talks about one side or another doing things, the actual paragraph talking about it does not state anything about the units not being deployed until the end of any portion of deployment.

Ceann wrote:As for the final paragraph, I don't see any issues with it. Deploy and deploying is the action of deployment. In order to count as deployed, you must deploy within the parameters it describes. Hence you cannot end your deployment step with a unit in impassable terrain, because it cannot be deploy there.

Then you missed the point of why I brought it up. Nothing in that section which covers the restrictions and actions of deploying during deployment consider a change of status for the individual unit. None. In fact, you won't find it anywhere but your own assumptions.

Ceann wrote:I chopped off the first but, I assumed it wasn't needed as it was the entire reason the topic was being discussed in the first place. The reasons listed after the first part are the reasons that are considered in order to qualify for a mishap.

Which are all reasons why a unit would not be able to deploy. CTA is another case, an advanced case, but still a case that is needed. The list is not exclusionary.

Thank you Charistoph, I can read the rulebook as well.
Summon = Yes
Deploy = Yes
Mishap = Yes, if you scatter onto enemy models, etc just like everyone else.

Explain to me then the process of the deployment phase.
When is a unit deployed? You seem to have the answer.

We know that the four deployment steps provided tell us we are deploying on step 2 and on step for we are told that we deployed. So it seems to have happened somewhere in there and not during our opponents turn.

My mentioning of step 3 wasn't for you, it was for someone else but I appreciate your dedicated attention towards it.

There is no "not deployed" status, anything that you didn't deploy is in reserves, anything else was obviously not involved in the first place. Part of the process of deploying is determining what you will deploy and what you will reserve.

The paragraph also does not say anything about units being deployed DURING any portion of deployment. Whether they are holding hands and deploying together, or standing in a line and deploying. At the end of the step they are all deployed or in reserves, hence completing the deploying process you might want to argue about how they reached this state, but they reach it nonetheless.

The only thing we know is that once they ARE deployed, there is a set of criteria that determines where they could have been deployed and where they could not. You can no more prove it happens one at a time than I can prove its at the same time, whatever happened during the deployment step, is deploying and once the battle starts THEY are not doing it collectively.

You are right the section doesn't say anything about it. All we know is that by step 4 it magically happened somehow, unless it stating the player who "deployed" first is a baseless assumption on my part also.

Please point out where it says the list is not exclusionary.

Ceann wrote:
Explain to me then the process of the deployment phase.
When is a unit deployed? You seem to have the answer.

How many more times would you have me say it?

A unit is deployed when all of its models are placed on the table for the game. This can happen before the game during deployment. It can happen when a unit walks on from Reserves. It can happen when a unit Deep Strikes. It can happen when a unit arrives from Outflank. No provisions are allowed for a unit to be partially deployed.

Ceann wrote:
We know that the four deployment steps provided tell us we are deploying on step 2 and on step for we are told that we deployed. So it seems to have happened somewhere in there and not during our opponents turn.

Well, that's for that side, yes.

Ceann wrote:
There is no "not deployed" status, anything that you didn't deploy is in reserves, anything else was obviously not involved in the first place. Part of the process of deploying is determining what you will deploy and what you will reserve.

Not entirely true. Being in Reserves is "not deployed", while there is no official status called that, it is pretty self-explanatory, and no official status of "deployed", either. They cannot be deployed because the act of Arriving From Reserves is deploying. If they were deployed, there would be no reason to pull them out from Reserves.

Any unit forced in to Reserves and cannot move is "destroyed". And then there is the main subject of this thread, units which were not purchased but are set aside for Conjuration. They are not in Reserves, they are just models awaiting a Psychic Power to pull them in from Deep Strike.

Ceann wrote:
The paragraph also does not say anything about units being deployed DURING any portion of deployment. Whether they are holding hands and deploying together, or standing in a line and deploying. At the end of the step they are all deployed or in reserves, hence completing the deploying process you might want to argue about how they reached this state, but they reach it nonetheless.

Well considering how something is deployed during the rest of the rules which talk about deploying, why should I use any other standard?

Ceann wrote:
The only thing we know is that once they ARE deployed, there is a set of criteria that determines where they could have been deployed and where they could not. You can no more prove it happens one at a time than I can prove its at the same time, whatever happened during the deployment step, is deploying and once the battle starts THEY are not doing it collectively.

What happens during the deployment part of Preparing For Battle (previously known as the Deployment Phase in Editions past) is you deploying your army. But again, just because the army is deploying, doesn't mean that units cannot be deployed in that process any more than models can be moved while a unit is Charging. This is the conflation that you are performing here.

Since being deployed can happen with a unit during the game and it follows some standard guidelines, I would need something specific to reconsider those guidelines. You have presented nothing to change that since you are focusing on the wrong level of consideration. You are focusing on the army when the Ally rules are concerned only with the units.

Ceann wrote:
You are right the section doesn't say anything about it. All we know is that by step 4 it magically happened somehow, unless it stating the player who "deployed" first is a baseless assumption on my part also.

Again, consider how the rest of the rulebook considers a unit deployed, and then try and find what actively counters that criteria for Deployment. You will find that it does not do so.

Ceann wrote:
Please point out where it says the list is not exclusionary.

By not stating that it is only by those two specific criteria.

You really should learn to parse quote. It makes tracking what you are responding to easier.

 Charistoph wrote:

Rolsheen wrote:Can come the apocalypse allies summon daemons?

YES

And then they run in to the point where units cannot deploy for battle within 12" of a unit they have a CTA relationship with, and therefore Mishap.

You (and others) have invented this rule. Cite the rule that states you Mishap. Deepstrike Mishaps gives the conditions for a mishap, summoning is not one of them.

Maybe you should read the thread first... the arguments have been clearly stated.

"because at least one model would land partially or fully off the table, in impassable terrain, on top of a friendly model, or on top of or within 1" of an enemy model."

CTA states that these models are treated as "enemy models" and that you cannot deploy within 12" of them. Summons are brought in using the deepstrike rules which is a deployment.

So your contention is baseless. The only argument that can be made is based on the wording of deployment rules and the CTA rules.

Fragile wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Rolsheen wrote:Can come the apocalypse allies summon daemons?

YES

And then they run in to the point where units cannot deploy for battle within 12" of a unit they have a CTA relationship with, and therefore Mishap.

You (and others) have invented this rule. Cite the rule that states you Mishap. Deepstrike Mishaps gives the conditions for a mishap, summoning is not one of them.

Nope, I have invented nothing. CTA disallows for deploying within 12" of each other. What happens when a Deep Striking model or unit cannot be deployed?

Ceann wrote:CTA states that these models are treated as "enemy models" and that you cannot deploy within 12" of them. Summons are brought in using the deepstrike rules which is a deployment.

Deep Strike is deploying, not deployment. Deployment happens before the game begins, while deploying happens during deployment and any method of arriving from Reserves.

You and I can agree to disagree on how we interpret deploying and deployment.

I was merely illuminating the gentlemen as to the fact that he was coming into the argument unawares of where the actual argument sat as a point of contention.

Ceann wrote:
You and I can agree to disagree on how we interpret deploying and deployment.

I was merely illuminating the gentlemen as to the fact that he was coming into the argument unawares of where the actual argument sat as a point of contention.

You were using the terms out of the context the rulebook uses them. "Deployment" is never stated during Deep Strike. Deployment is defined as part of Preparing For Battle, and every other reference to "deployment" refers back exactly to that point. "Deploy" is used during deployment, Deep Strike, Infiltrate, Scout, Outflank, and Reserves as the act of placing units on the table.

Noted under Preparing Reserves:

When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later.

Under Combined Reserve Units:

During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together.

Under Arriving From Reserves:

...
When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.

So, yeah, the rulebook notes a difference in their use, so why shouldn't I?

Wow the rulebook notes the difference... amazing.

Well the rulebook also has a section called special rules and when a special conflicts with a normal rule the special rule takes precedence.
Please notate the difference.

CTA states 12"
Deepstrike states 1"

But clearly we must ignore that deepstriking is a special rule.
We wouldn't ignore what a deployment rule says in regards to a special rule, we would never do that.
Except in the case of where it breaks a rule...oh wait, its doing that isn't it?
We follow infiltrating too don't we? And scouting?
Darn special rules, so clever.