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 Dakka Wolf wrote:
There's plenty of gingers, Mechanicus have a whole law about purging the souless sentients.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ging wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Col Regina Kasteen of the famed Valhallan 597th is a rather fabulous redhead.

wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Regina_Kasteen

In fact IIRC its not an uncommon hair colour on her world

And unlike all the Space Wolves references, she's a natural redhead. Dyeing your hair bright orange does not a ginger make.

Is that true? I dont think they dye their hair - why would they bother.

Krom Dragongaze and Njal Stormcaller are natural gingers atleast.

I'm curious about that as well, never found any evidence of Space Mutts using hair dye.

The evidence is the fact that the miniatures have bright orange hair - like the dyed hair of trollslayers - rather than anything that could be considered natural. Most other miniatures have fairly naturalistic blond, browns, black and white hair, so these look like weird outliers to me. I could be wrong, and ultimately it doesn't matter (my Space Wolves have dyed their hair, yours have naturally orange hair, who cares?). I could ask at Warhammer Fest, but I doubt I'll get a concrete answer.

[Stuff]

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
There's plenty of gingers, Mechanicus have a whole law about purging the souless sentients.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ging wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Col Regina Kasteen of the famed Valhallan 597th is a rather fabulous redhead.

wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Regina_Kasteen

In fact IIRC its not an uncommon hair colour on her world

And unlike all the Space Wolves references, she's a natural redhead. Dyeing your hair bright orange does not a ginger make.

Is that true? I dont think they dye their hair - why would they bother.

Krom Dragongaze and Njal Stormcaller are natural gingers atleast.

I'm curious about that as well, never found any evidence of Space Mutts using hair dye.

The evidence is the fact that the miniatures have bright orange hair - like the dyed hair of trollslayers - rather than anything that could be considered natural. Most other miniatures have fairly naturalistic blond, browns, black and white hair, so these look like weird outliers to me. I could be wrong, and ultimately it doesn't matter (my Space Wolves have dyed their hair, yours have naturally orange hair, who cares?). I could ask at Warhammer Fest, but I doubt I'll get a concrete answer.

My brother is a natural ginger and his hair is as bright and vibrant as those models. Okay, maybe not quite as vibrant, but its painting, so its somewhat exaggerated. But my brother is still a fairly bright orange on top.

Its also possible that natural selection made ginger hair to become more and more vibrant. Ginger gene is recessive, meaning it needs 2 copies of the ginger gene on chromosome 16 for the child to be born ginger. Ginger currently affects 1-2% of the global population. This means that the other 98% needs to have a dormant ginger gene to pass on as well, meaning that 2 people with 1 ginger gene each have a 25% chance of creating a ginger child, while 2 gingers (with 2 genes each) will guarenteed make a ginger, and if either parent has no ginger gene then the chances of being ginger is 0.

Basically, the odds of getting 2x double ginger gene parents with the Imperium's population is so astronomical its an impossibility. Getting 2 parents with 1 ginger gene each is much more likely but each child only has a 25% chance of being ginger. Getting 1 parent with 2 ginger genes and 1 parent with only 1 ginger gene is going to be extremely difficult, and only give each child a 50% chance of being ginger. Getting 1 parent with no ginger genes is extremely likely, and gives a 0% chance of being ginger.

Trying to calculate such massive numbers and percentages is insanity in the making, but basically, the chances of being ginger in the 41st millennium is so astronomically, incalculably low that its almost completely impossible

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
There's plenty of gingers, Mechanicus have a whole law about purging the souless sentients.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ging wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Col Regina Kasteen of the famed Valhallan 597th is a rather fabulous redhead.

wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Regina_Kasteen

In fact IIRC its not an uncommon hair colour on her world

And unlike all the Space Wolves references, she's a natural redhead. Dyeing your hair bright orange does not a ginger make.

Is that true? I dont think they dye their hair - why would they bother.

Krom Dragongaze and Njal Stormcaller are natural gingers atleast.

I'm curious about that as well, never found any evidence of Space Mutts using hair dye.

The evidence is the fact that the miniatures have bright orange hair - like the dyed hair of trollslayers - rather than anything that could be considered natural. Most other miniatures have fairly naturalistic blond, browns, black and white hair, so these look like weird outliers to me. I could be wrong, and ultimately it doesn't matter (my Space Wolves have dyed their hair, yours have naturally orange hair, who cares?). I could ask at Warhammer Fest, but I doubt I'll get a concrete answer.

The fact several prominent Space Wolves have never had red hair makes me think the Space Wolf gene seed or Fenrisian genetics rather than dye are the reason for the ginger scalps.
Ragnar Blackmane is known for his unusual black hair rather than any refusal to dye it.
Ulrik the Slayer first called Logan Grimnar "Storm Cloud" due to his dark hair.
My Space Wolves mostly have progressive hair.
Blood Claws have blonde, ginger and brown.
Grey Hunters have platinum, auburn and grey.
Wolf Guard, Lords, Scouts and TWC have brown and grey.
Long Fangs got Salt & Pepper and White.
Krom Dragongaze
Lukas Strifeson
Njarl Stormcaller
I gave them brown hair with metallic red and gold highlights because they're noted for flame coloured hair.

I don't understand how natural selection would make gingers less prevalent in the 41st millennium. If selection is based on the chances of two parents from a 1% to 2% pool of the population both passing on the mutation, wouldn't the pool and therefore the chance of propagation be the same in a large population as it is in a small one?

I would say that the extinction of gingers in the 41st millennium would more likely be caused by unnatural selection. i.e by a conscious and targeted elimination of that specific gene pool for reasons of heresy, taint, grimdark etc. On the other hand, in a universe with such a vast variety of prejudices as 40k, it's just as likely that a world exists with the exact opposite prejudice. E.g. The Ginger Tyrant of Gingus Prime, who eliminated all of the unchosen, as they had not been blessed by the Emperor's Tangerine light.

I think I may have come up with a backstory for my new Imperial Guard regiment.

 Ginjitzu wrote:

Spoiler:

 Deadshot wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
There's plenty of gingers, Mechanicus have a whole law about purging the souless sentients.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


I'm curious about that as well, never found any evidence of Space Mutts using hair dye.

The evidence is the fact that the miniatures have bright orange hair - like the dyed hair of trollslayers - rather than anything that could be considered natural. Most other miniatures have fairly naturalistic blond, browns, black and white hair, so these look like weird outliers to me. I could be wrong, and ultimately it doesn't matter (my Space Wolves have dyed their hair, yours have naturally orange hair, who cares?). I could ask at Warhammer Fest, but I doubt I'll get a concrete answer.

My brother is a natural ginger and his hair is as bright and vibrant as those models. Okay, maybe not quite as vibrant, but its painting, so its somewhat exaggerated. But my brother is still a fairly bright orange on top.

Its also possible that natural selection made ginger hair to become more and more vibrant. Ginger gene is recessive, meaning it needs 2 copies of the ginger gene on chromosome 16 for the child to be born ginger. Ginger currently affects 1-2% of the global population. This means that the other 98% needs to have a dormant ginger gene to pass on as well, meaning that 2 people with 1 ginger gene each have a 25% chance of creating a ginger child, while 2 gingers (with 2 genes each) will guarenteed make a ginger, and if either parent has no ginger gene then the chances of being ginger is 0.

Basically, the odds of getting 2x double ginger gene parents with the Imperium's population is so astronomical its an impossibility. Getting 2 parents with 1 ginger gene each is much more likely but each child only has a 25% chance of being ginger. Getting 1 parent with 2 ginger genes and 1 parent with only 1 ginger gene is going to be extremely difficult, and only give each child a 50% chance of being ginger. Getting 1 parent with no ginger genes is extremely likely, and gives a 0% chance of being ginger.

Trying to calculate such massive numbers and percentages is insanity in the making, but basically, the chances of being ginger in the 41st millennium is so astronomically, incalculably low that its almost completely impossible

I don't understand how natural selection would make gingers less prevalent in the 41st millennium. If selection is based on the chances of two parents from a 1% to 2% pool of the population both passing on the mutation, wouldn't the pool and therefore the chance of propagation be the same in a large population as it is in a small one?

I would say that the extinction of gingers in the 41st millennium would more likely be caused by unnatural selection. i.e by a conscious and targeted elimination of that specific gene pool for reasons of heresy, taint, grimdark etc. On the other hand, in a universe with such a vast variety of prejudices as 40k, it's just as likely that a world exists with the exact opposite prejudice. E.g. The Ginger Tyrant of Gingus Prime, who eliminated all of the unchosen, as they had not been blessed by the Emperor's Tangerine light.

I think I may have come up with a backstory for my new Imperial Guard regiment.

You also have to consider that the gene-pool was spread out while humanity spread amongst the stars. If only 1-2% has the genes, for example (its a little more than that but for example) and 0.5-1% travel to Mars, you have only half as much chance to get a ginger child. As the race spreads across multiple planets, you have to consider that what you might, and probably will, end up with, is the ginger population of 1-2% spread across not just a few continents, but across multiple planets, never to meet, never to produce red-head offspring. This isn't an issue with brown or blonde hair as they are more dominant alleles than ginger, so they don't need both parents to carry the gene, whereas a ginger child needs both parents to carry at least 1 ginger gene, which only gives a 25% chance of getting a ginger child.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:

Spoiler:

 Deadshot wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
There's plenty of gingers, Mechanicus have a whole law about purging the souless sentients.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


I'm curious about that as well, never found any evidence of Space Mutts using hair dye.

The evidence is the fact that the miniatures have bright orange hair - like the dyed hair of trollslayers - rather than anything that could be considered natural. Most other miniatures have fairly naturalistic blond, browns, black and white hair, so these look like weird outliers to me. I could be wrong, and ultimately it doesn't matter (my Space Wolves have dyed their hair, yours have naturally orange hair, who cares?). I could ask at Warhammer Fest, but I doubt I'll get a concrete answer.

My brother is a natural ginger and his hair is as bright and vibrant as those models. Okay, maybe not quite as vibrant, but its painting, so its somewhat exaggerated. But my brother is still a fairly bright orange on top.

Its also possible that natural selection made ginger hair to become more and more vibrant. Ginger gene is recessive, meaning it needs 2 copies of the ginger gene on chromosome 16 for the child to be born ginger. Ginger currently affects 1-2% of the global population. This means that the other 98% needs to have a dormant ginger gene to pass on as well, meaning that 2 people with 1 ginger gene each have a 25% chance of creating a ginger child, while 2 gingers (with 2 genes each) will guarenteed make a ginger, and if either parent has no ginger gene then the chances of being ginger is 0.

Basically, the odds of getting 2x double ginger gene parents with the Imperium's population is so astronomical its an impossibility. Getting 2 parents with 1 ginger gene each is much more likely but each child only has a 25% chance of being ginger. Getting 1 parent with 2 ginger genes and 1 parent with only 1 ginger gene is going to be extremely difficult, and only give each child a 50% chance of being ginger. Getting 1 parent with no ginger genes is extremely likely, and gives a 0% chance of being ginger.

Trying to calculate such massive numbers and percentages is insanity in the making, but basically, the chances of being ginger in the 41st millennium is so astronomically, incalculably low that its almost completely impossible

I don't understand how natural selection would make gingers less prevalent in the 41st millennium. If selection is based on the chances of two parents from a 1% to 2% pool of the population both passing on the mutation, wouldn't the pool and therefore the chance of propagation be the same in a large population as it is in a small one?

I would say that the extinction of gingers in the 41st millennium would more likely be caused by unnatural selection. i.e by a conscious and targeted elimination of that specific gene pool for reasons of heresy, taint, grimdark etc. On the other hand, in a universe with such a vast variety of prejudices as 40k, it's just as likely that a world exists with the exact opposite prejudice. E.g. The Ginger Tyrant of Gingus Prime, who eliminated all of the unchosen, as they had not been blessed by the Emperor's Tangerine light.

I think I may have come up with a backstory for my new Imperial Guard regiment.

You also have to consider that the gene-pool was spread out while humanity spread amongst the stars. If only 1-2% has the genes, for example (its a little more than that but for example) and 0.5-1% travel to Mars, you have only half as much chance to get a ginger child. As the race spreads across multiple planets, you have to consider that what you might, and probably will, end up with, is the ginger population of 1-2% spread across not just a few continents, but across multiple planets, never to meet, never to produce red-head offspring. This isn't an issue with brown or blonde hair as they are more dominant alleles than ginger, so they don't need both parents to carry the gene, whereas a ginger child needs both parents to carry at least 1 ginger gene, which only gives a 25% chance of getting a ginger child.

Since the original chapters were based on successful military nationalities you're thinking in the wrong direction - rather than thinking about how cross breeding with other cultures makes red-heads more rare you need to be thinking about what made light skinned, colourful haired people prevalent in Northern and Western Europe in the first place and apply it planetwide.
Why did the and hair colour change as the dark haired, dark skinned African Homo sapien migrated north?
Fenris has a lot of that catalyst.

The entire Sisters of Battle faction.

Oh, you meant actual hair color, not "red-headed stepchild" status.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:

Spoiler:

 Deadshot wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
There's plenty of gingers, Mechanicus have a whole law about purging the souless sentients.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


I'm curious about that as well, never found any evidence of Space Mutts using hair dye.

The evidence is the fact that the miniatures have bright orange hair - like the dyed hair of trollslayers - rather than anything that could be considered natural. Most other miniatures have fairly naturalistic blond, browns, black and white hair, so these look like weird outliers to me. I could be wrong, and ultimately it doesn't matter (my Space Wolves have dyed their hair, yours have naturally orange hair, who cares?). I could ask at Warhammer Fest, but I doubt I'll get a concrete answer.

My brother is a natural ginger and his hair is as bright and vibrant as those models. Okay, maybe not quite as vibrant, but its painting, so its somewhat exaggerated. But my brother is still a fairly bright orange on top.

Its also possible that natural selection made ginger hair to become more and more vibrant. Ginger gene is recessive, meaning it needs 2 copies of the ginger gene on chromosome 16 for the child to be born ginger. Ginger currently affects 1-2% of the global population. This means that the other 98% needs to have a dormant ginger gene to pass on as well, meaning that 2 people with 1 ginger gene each have a 25% chance of creating a ginger child, while 2 gingers (with 2 genes each) will guarenteed make a ginger, and if either parent has no ginger gene then the chances of being ginger is 0.

Basically, the odds of getting 2x double ginger gene parents with the Imperium's population is so astronomical its an impossibility. Getting 2 parents with 1 ginger gene each is much more likely but each child only has a 25% chance of being ginger. Getting 1 parent with 2 ginger genes and 1 parent with only 1 ginger gene is going to be extremely difficult, and only give each child a 50% chance of being ginger. Getting 1 parent with no ginger genes is extremely likely, and gives a 0% chance of being ginger.

Trying to calculate such massive numbers and percentages is insanity in the making, but basically, the chances of being ginger in the 41st millennium is so astronomically, incalculably low that its almost completely impossible

I don't understand how natural selection would make gingers less prevalent in the 41st millennium. If selection is based on the chances of two parents from a 1% to 2% pool of the population both passing on the mutation, wouldn't the pool and therefore the chance of propagation be the same in a large population as it is in a small one?

I would say that the extinction of gingers in the 41st millennium would more likely be caused by unnatural selection. i.e by a conscious and targeted elimination of that specific gene pool for reasons of heresy, taint, grimdark etc. On the other hand, in a universe with such a vast variety of prejudices as 40k, it's just as likely that a world exists with the exact opposite prejudice. E.g. The Ginger Tyrant of Gingus Prime, who eliminated all of the unchosen, as they had not been blessed by the Emperor's Tangerine light.

I think I may have come up with a backstory for my new Imperial Guard regiment.

You also have to consider that the gene-pool was spread out while humanity spread amongst the stars. If only 1-2% has the genes, for example (its a little more than that but for example) and 0.5-1% travel to Mars, you have only half as much chance to get a ginger child. As the race spreads across multiple planets, you have to consider that what you might, and probably will, end up with, is the ginger population of 1-2% spread across not just a few continents, but across multiple planets, never to meet, never to produce red-head offspring. This isn't an issue with brown or blonde hair as they are more dominant alleles than ginger, so they don't need both parents to carry the gene, whereas a ginger child needs both parents to carry at least 1 ginger gene, which only gives a 25% chance of getting a ginger child.

Since the original chapters were based on successful military nationalities you're thinking in the wrong direction - rather than thinking about how cross breeding with other cultures makes red-heads more rare you need to be thinking about what made light skinned, colourful haired people prevalent in Northern and Western Europe in the first place and apply it planetwide.
Why did the and hair colour change as the dark haired, dark skinned African Homo sapien migrated north?
Fenris has a lot of that catalyst.

Homo Sapien grew lighter skinned and fairer hair to absorb more sunlight and ensure sufficient Vitamen D intake.

Fenris does have the cold snowy vibe, so the traits would carry of course. But only if the gene existed there in the first place. If a billion people go to Fenris, containing 1% ginger and 1% dormant ginger allele (who also dont know this because they're recessive genes), spread across 1,000,000 square miles, there is only 100 redheads and 100 dormant redheads per square mile. Accounting for the fact you need to be opposite sex, that's 100 potentials per square mile. Then you have to calculate the odds of actually getting pregnant, which is way too complicated to calculate given that there's so many variables such as male fertility and female fertility to name a few. Then, assuming both parents are ginger, you get a ginger. But if one parent is carrying a dormant gene, that leaves only a 50/50 chance of ginger. If both parents are recessive, that leaves a 25% chance.

So the odds just keep getting lower, and lower, and lower, of actually conceiving a redheaded child. And then that child has to survive to adulthood, meet a mate with redhead genes and pass that down. Given the lack of Tinder in the 41st Millennium I dont imagine it to be easy. And as for surviving... perhaps bright orange hair isn't the greatest trait in an all-white area with superwolves running around.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:

Spoiler:

 Deadshot wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
There's plenty of gingers, Mechanicus have a whole law about purging the souless sentients.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


I'm curious about that as well, never found any evidence of Space Mutts using hair dye.

The evidence is the fact that the miniatures have bright orange hair - like the dyed hair of trollslayers - rather than anything that could be considered natural. Most other miniatures have fairly naturalistic blond, browns, black and white hair, so these look like weird outliers to me. I could be wrong, and ultimately it doesn't matter (my Space Wolves have dyed their hair, yours have naturally orange hair, who cares?). I could ask at Warhammer Fest, but I doubt I'll get a concrete answer.

My brother is a natural ginger and his hair is as bright and vibrant as those models. Okay, maybe not quite as vibrant, but its painting, so its somewhat exaggerated. But my brother is still a fairly bright orange on top.

Its also possible that natural selection made ginger hair to become more and more vibrant. Ginger gene is recessive, meaning it needs 2 copies of the ginger gene on chromosome 16 for the child to be born ginger. Ginger currently affects 1-2% of the global population. This means that the other 98% needs to have a dormant ginger gene to pass on as well, meaning that 2 people with 1 ginger gene each have a 25% chance of creating a ginger child, while 2 gingers (with 2 genes each) will guarenteed make a ginger, and if either parent has no ginger gene then the chances of being ginger is 0.

Basically, the odds of getting 2x double ginger gene parents with the Imperium's population is so astronomical its an impossibility. Getting 2 parents with 1 ginger gene each is much more likely but each child only has a 25% chance of being ginger. Getting 1 parent with 2 ginger genes and 1 parent with only 1 ginger gene is going to be extremely difficult, and only give each child a 50% chance of being ginger. Getting 1 parent with no ginger genes is extremely likely, and gives a 0% chance of being ginger.

Trying to calculate such massive numbers and percentages is insanity in the making, but basically, the chances of being ginger in the 41st millennium is so astronomically, incalculably low that its almost completely impossible

I don't understand how natural selection would make gingers less prevalent in the 41st millennium. If selection is based on the chances of two parents from a 1% to 2% pool of the population both passing on the mutation, wouldn't the pool and therefore the chance of propagation be the same in a large population as it is in a small one?

I would say that the extinction of gingers in the 41st millennium would more likely be caused by unnatural selection. i.e by a conscious and targeted elimination of that specific gene pool for reasons of heresy, taint, grimdark etc. On the other hand, in a universe with such a vast variety of prejudices as 40k, it's just as likely that a world exists with the exact opposite prejudice. E.g. The Ginger Tyrant of Gingus Prime, who eliminated all of the unchosen, as they had not been blessed by the Emperor's Tangerine light.

I think I may have come up with a backstory for my new Imperial Guard regiment.

You also have to consider that the gene-pool was spread out while humanity spread amongst the stars. If only 1-2% has the genes, for example (its a little more than that but for example) and 0.5-1% travel to Mars, you have only half as much chance to get a ginger child. As the race spreads across multiple planets, you have to consider that what you might, and probably will, end up with, is the ginger population of 1-2% spread across not just a few continents, but across multiple planets, never to meet, never to produce red-head offspring. This isn't an issue with brown or blonde hair as they are more dominant alleles than ginger, so they don't need both parents to carry the gene, whereas a ginger child needs both parents to carry at least 1 ginger gene, which only gives a 25% chance of getting a ginger child.

Since the original chapters were based on successful military nationalities you're thinking in the wrong direction - rather than thinking about how cross breeding with other cultures makes red-heads more rare you need to be thinking about what made light skinned, colourful haired people prevalent in Northern and Western Europe in the first place and apply it planetwide.
Why did the and hair colour change as the dark haired, dark skinned African Homo sapien migrated north?
Fenris has a lot of that catalyst.

Homo Sapien grew lighter skinned and fairer hair to absorb more sunlight and ensure sufficient Vitamen D intake.

Fenris does have the cold snowy vibe, so the traits would carry of course. But only if the gene existed there in the first place. If a billion people go to Fenris, containing 1% ginger and 1% dormant ginger allele (who also dont know this because they're recessive genes), spread across 1,000,000 square miles, there is only 100 redheads and 100 dormant redheads per square mile. Accounting for the fact you need to be opposite sex, that's 100 potentials per square mile. Then you have to calculate the odds of actually getting pregnant, which is way too complicated to calculate given that there's so many variables such as male fertility and female fertility to name a few. Then, assuming both parents are ginger, you get a ginger. But if one parent is carrying a dormant gene, that leaves only a 50/50 chance of ginger. If both parents are recessive, that leaves a 25% chance.

So the odds just keep getting lower, and lower, and lower, of actually conceiving a redheaded child. And then that child has to survive to adulthood, meet a mate with redhead genes and pass that down. Given the lack of Tinder in the 41st Millennium I dont imagine it to be easy. And as for surviving... perhaps bright orange hair isn't the greatest trait in an all-white area with superwolves running around.

Red hair is a mutation in response to a catalyst. The Africans making their way up north didn't already have the gene, their genetic code was exclusively dark skin and dark hair, that genetic code mutated, if that catalyst is cold temperatures and lack of sunlight Fenris fits the bill perfectly.
As for the Wolves - maybe they aren't particularly keen on fire and didn't eat as many of the red-haired Fenrisians because of the way light reflects through it, there be wolves in Northern and Western Europe, they're also good places to find red-heads.