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oh snap squats.

Tyran wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
That might be fair in some ways, but that was also the argument put forth when HP's were introduced and glances no longer rolled on thr damage table and pen's were made less dangerous, and it didnt actually turn out to be a net boon for vehicles then either. If it's just dead instead of disabled, you're not much further ahead

The difference now is what it is good at killing vehicles. In 7th edition Lascannons are borderline useless while S6 spam glances vehicles to death. New Lascannons will be very effective against vehicles while S6 spam will be far less effective (because far more wounds and a save).

for stuff like Scatterlasers, sure, I would agree, but at the same time we're also opening them up to a much wider array of weapons that *can* hurt them as well.

So, theyre less vulnerable to Scatterlasers and the like, but are dramatically more vulnerable to heavy weapons, and can now be hurt by common small arms as well now.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


D6+1 hits, or even D6+2 hits against a swarm, a swarm being, say, 10+ models, would be fair.

D3 hits against a lone model, to reflect the difficulty in hitting a lone model, would be fair in my book.

adding more and more rules to the game to make things 'believable' is one of the things that busted the game in the first place.

We don't need more and more interactions, having to stop play five times to check something in the rules book was one of the biggest issues with games.

d6 is fine; and if down the line some salamanders character gets a super flamer or something, it can be its own special rules.

Is that a Squat holding a beermug I see?

10penceman wrote:
the stats lines i have sen on units all have a ws with say a 3+ does that mean no matter who you are attacking you hit on that 3+ so no more ws vs ws if so isn't that a little naff as in your opponents skill in cc is moot or do you think there is more to it than that ?

In AoS at least, there's a lot of special rules that duelist characters and the like get that make them better at fighting in melee. Stuff like -1 to be hit, enemies are at -1 attack, that sorta thing.

10penceman wrote:
the stats lines i have sen on units all have a ws with say a 3+ does that mean no matter who you are attacking you hit on that 3+ so no more ws vs ws if so isn't that a little naff as in your opponents skill in cc is moot or do you think there is more to it than that ?

They mentioned there gonna be some modifiers to to-hit chance, so maybe we'd get our old system in a simpler wording rather than a table sheet: -1 for the target having equal or higher WS, -2 if it's double higher.

 nintura wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Its a game man

And not a very good one if these new changes are anything to go by.

Go complain somewhere else. Negativity isn't needed.

Say who?

YOu're not the center of the universe, you know.

As for the new preview, really glad that they didn't import the multi wounds weapons can kill numerous models of AOS (another terrible rule from that abortion of a game).

 Mr Morden wrote:

Yonasu wrote:
I'm afraid the psychic phase will be gutted as well. It will just be like shooting weapons except with 2d6 and a variable to hit like in AoS... Double ones are perils? No wait thats a table you have to remember, thats probably gone then...

Thank the gods for that IMO - adding the magic rules from WFB to 40k was a terrible idea - time consuming, finincky and (as usual) badly unblanced - AOS magic is a breath of fresh air compared to the abomination of the psychic phase in 7th ed.

Adding hugely powerful space magic to the game was the mistake. Psychic phase was necessary fix making it semi-bearable.

Don't you remember how Psychic Powers were in the end of 6th edition? It was an enormous mess. They could be casted at any phase of the game, it was hard to keep track of who had used his power allocations, people wanted to go back a phase to activate some power or forgot whether they still were able to activate Force Weapons...

Sadly, Psychic Power Creep is here to stay and we won't return to good old times when my Dark Angels had 2 weak Powers and Ezekiel knew a third. But now they have the opportunity to at least cut some of the worst excesses out.

Beer-keg powered armor -- I would buy the gak out of that.

 Vaktathi wrote:

well yeah, but here's the thing, the statistical norm isn't what you're dealing with, you're dealing with player experience. When a dread can explode instantly to a single shot you remember that way more often then you remember a group of lascannons plinking off 1 HP. The reason the new system is better is because you don't have players shying away from the model as much. It still take about 7 shots to kill a dread from a lascannon sure, but the fact that it CAN'T be one and done means people feel better about the model. It's actually especially important for competitive players because eliminating 'it blows up turn one to a lucky hit' is a big part of creating a tournament list. It's just a better system now.

Hrm, that sounds like really bad game design from a balance perspective, and you're going to see one shots from entire units become dramatically more common (i.e. while you dont have to worry about random tac lascannom #38583822 in the back blowing up your tank randomly, Lascannon dev squad #3 is going to kill it in shot with dramatically greater efficacy).

 Vaktathi wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Mezmerro wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
A single lascannon from a tac squad wont have that ability, but a unit with multiple heavy weapons will have a far easier time killing such a vehicle with a single salvo, and the save wont make up for it. Thats my concern. Vehicles are already fragile and, at least looking at the Dread, it doesnt look to be getting hardier in any way (beyond the small chance for a single heavy weapon to one shot something), less so actually.

Now let's see:
Devastator squad would have 4 lascannons
Hitting on 3+ it's 2.6(6) hits
Multilyed on D6 (3.5 average) it's 9.3(3) hits
Wounding on 2+ nets us 7.7(7) wounds
Dread would still get 6+ save after -3 AP to his 3+ so: 6.481 wounds after saves
Doesn't look like a likely one-shot to me.

I said it would be more likely and that the average number of shots required to kill would be fewer, not that it was guaranteed one shotting.

I've never once seen a dreadnought survive more than 3 lascannons or 2 meltas in 7th and I play gooft triple contemptor+venerable lists.

As much as I bagged on 6E and 7E for making vehicles way too easy to kill, even in 7E an AV12 Dread should require two or three times as many shots to kill as your experience posits. 3 BS4 lascannons should on average inflict 1 HP, and have a 1/6 combined chance to explode a dread. If you have never seen a Dread survive more shots than that, I would posit that your experience is dramatically, radically, outside statistical norm.

well yeah, but here's the thing, the statistical norm isn't what you're dealing with, you're dealing with player experience. When a dread can explode instantly to a single shot you remember that way more often then you remember a group of lascannons plinking off 1 HP. The reason the new system is better is because you don't have players shying away from the model as much. It still take about 7 shots to kill a dread from a lascannon sure, but the fact that it CAN'T be one and done means people feel better about the model. It's actually especially important for competitive players because eliminating 'it blows up turn one to a lucky hit' is a big part of creating a tournament list. It's just a better system now.

Hrm, that sounds like really bad game design from a balance perspective, and you're going to see one shots from entire units become dramatically more common (i.e. while you dont have to worry about random tac lascannom #38583822 in the back blowing up your tank randomly, Lascannon dev squad #3 is going to kill it in shot with dramatically greater efficacy).

What? Dude I don't even know what you're talking about anymore, a unit has 4 shots in it so it can't be a oneshot by definition of the word one. And putting an entire unit of lascannons into a singular vehicle should have a pretty decent chance of killing it by nature of the weapon.

Also what game are you playing that you're not pretty confident a Dreadnought is gonna die to 4 space marine lascannons? Finally who knows how much those 4 lascannons are gonna cost? If the dread is 100pts and 4 lascannons are 500pts I dam well want them to nuke the hell out of whatever they shoot.

Also stop thinking about a D6 as being 6 damage and start thinking of it being 3 damage, that's much closer to what it is.

 streetsamurai wrote:

 nintura wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Its a game man

And not a very good one if these new changes are anything to go by.

Go complain somewhere else. Negativity isn't needed.

Say who?

YOu're not the center of the universe, you know.

As for the new preview, really glad that they didn't import the multi wounds weapons can kill numerous models of AOS (another terrible rule from that abortion of a game).

Could you say 'abomination' instead maybe? Your choice of that word is pretty offensive. Thanks.

Daedalus81 wrote:


When is the last time you saw an all lascannon dev squad? You know the one that costs 220 points if you want to bother keeping the heavy weapons alive? And you're going to bring 3 of them? That might make it a little hard to fight orks.

It was an example for the sake of illustration. Replace Devastators with Predator Annihilator or several tac combat squads any other similar stand in if you like. The ultimate point was that it is going to require dramatically fewer shots to kill a dread on average than was needed before, and they were already hurting there.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:


When is the last time you saw an all lascannon dev squad? You know the one that costs 220 points if you want to bother keeping the heavy weapons alive? And you're going to bring 3 of them? That might make it a little hard to fight orks.

It was an example for the sake of illustration. Replace Devastators with Predator Annihilator or several tac combat squads any other similar stand in if you like. The ultimate point was that it is going to require dramatically fewer shots to kill a dread on average than was needed before, and they were already hurting there.

but it only ever took that 1 shot to kill that 1 dread. that one lucky shot that could ruin an entire game. replace dread with land raider.

its not possible for a single shot to kill a dread or landraider so im not really seeing a problem.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:


When is the last time you saw an all lascannon dev squad? You know the one that costs 220 points if you want to bother keeping the heavy weapons alive? And you're going to bring 3 of them? That might make it a little hard to fight orks.

It was an example for the sake of illustration. Replace Devastators with Predator Annihilator or several tac combat squads any other similar stand in if you like. The ultimate point was that it is going to require dramatically fewer shots to kill a dread on average than was needed before, and they were already hurting there.

Not dramatically. Hell, not even significantly fewer. At average it was 6.37 in the old edition and it's gonna be 6.17 in the new.
Yeah, 0.2 lascannon shots fewer to kill a dread.
WHAT A DRAMATIC DIFFERENCE!

 Desubot wrote:

its not possible for a single shot to kill a dread or landraider so im not really seeing a problem.

with a lascannon
we don't know if Tau weapons, melter or anything else inflict more 2D6 or more damage

and the one schot being a problem was a 3-5th edi problem

now spam is a problem/annoying and this does not change
lascannon are still bad at killing something, and you won't see lascannon dev squads in 8th as they are just gambling

 kodos wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

its not possible for a single shot to kill a dread or landraider so im not really seeing a problem.

with a lascannon
we don't know if Tau weapons, melter or anything else inflict more 2D6 or more damage

and the one schot being a problem was a 3-5th edi problem

now spam is a problem/annoying and this does not change

Im pretty sure some flavor of old D weapons will be getting up to 2d6 or some stock numbers like 3-6 damage.

I am waiting for melta to get a nerf. back in 2nd melta was second fiddle to las canons. It was -5 to save whereas a las canon was -6 and it inflicted d12 damage whereas the las canon did 2d6 all while having shorter range.

I wouldn't be shocked if melta was assault 1 s8 ap-3 d6 damage, but at half range just did an auto 6 damage.

ERJAK wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Mezmerro wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
A single lascannon from a tac squad wont have that ability, but a unit with multiple heavy weapons will have a far easier time killing such a vehicle with a single salvo, and the save wont make up for it. Thats my concern. Vehicles are already fragile and, at least looking at the Dread, it doesnt look to be getting hardier in any way (beyond the small chance for a single heavy weapon to one shot something), less so actually.

Now let's see:
Devastator squad would have 4 lascannons
Hitting on 3+ it's 2.6(6) hits
Multilyed on D6 (3.5 average) it's 9.3(3) hits
Wounding on 2+ nets us 7.7(7) wounds
Dread would still get 6+ save after -3 AP to his 3+ so: 6.481 wounds after saves
Doesn't look like a likely one-shot to me.

I said it would be more likely and that the average number of shots required to kill would be fewer, not that it was guaranteed one shotting.

I've never once seen a dreadnought survive more than 3 lascannons or 2 meltas in 7th and I play gooft triple contemptor+venerable lists.

As much as I bagged on 6E and 7E for making vehicles way too easy to kill, even in 7E an AV12 Dread should require two or three times as many shots to kill as your experience posits. 3 BS4 lascannons should on average inflict 1 HP, and have a 1/6 combined chance to explode a dread. If you have never seen a Dread survive more shots than that, I would posit that your experience is dramatically, radically, outside statistical norm.

well yeah, but here's the thing, the statistical norm isn't what you're dealing with, you're dealing with player experience. When a dread can explode instantly to a single shot you remember that way more often then you remember a group of lascannons plinking off 1 HP. The reason the new system is better is because you don't have players shying away from the model as much. It still take about 7 shots to kill a dread from a lascannon sure, but the fact that it CAN'T be one and done means people feel better about the model. It's actually especially important for competitive players because eliminating 'it blows up turn one to a lucky hit' is a big part of creating a tournament list. It's just a better system now.

Hrm, that sounds like really bad game design from a balance perspective, and you're going to see one shots from entire units become dramatically more common (i.e. while you dont have to worry about random tac lascannom #38583822 in the back blowing up your tank randomly, Lascannon dev squad #3 is going to kill it in shot with dramatically greater efficacy).

What? Dude I don't even know what you're talking about anymore, a unit has 4 shots in it so it can't be a oneshot by definition of the word one.

My point was that people were overfocusing on single shots from single weapons in a game based around *unit* actions, ultimately the same investment by the opponent will be more effective and consistent overall. While random single heavy weapons wont have the small chance to blow up units in a single shot, they'll be much more capable in terms of effective damage output, whiffing dramatcially less often and inflicting crippling damage dramatically more often.

And putting an entire unit of lascannons into a singular vehicle should have a pretty decent chance of killing it by nature of the weapon.

which is a different argument than the one I was making, which is that it's going to be even easier for such weapons to do so, when such units already were too easy to kill.

Also what game are you playing that you're not pretty confident a Dreadnought is gonna die to 4 space marine lascannons?

I'm not arguing that 4 lascannons arent
a potent anti tank force, they should be, but vehicles are already too easy to kill, and, barring things like scatterlasers, theyre going to be even easier to kill. As for what game I'm playing, it's the one I've played for over a decade, through multiple editions, and that I understand the averages behind?

Finally who knows how much those 4 lascannons are gonna cost? If the dread is 100pts and 4 lascannons are 500pts I dam well want them to nuke the hell out of whatever they shoot.

And I have consistently acknowledged this point mulitple times, including my first post on the subject. But we dont know so I'm discussing the issue within the experience of the game we're thus far familiar with over many editions.

lso stop thinking about a D6 as being 6 damage and start thinking of it being 3 damage, that's much closer to what it is.

I never once attempted to do so, in fact my original math on the subject used an average of 3.5

Flamers get buffed for another reason.

Say you are 6" away from a wall of guants. With the template you might be able to clip 3 of them, but more likely just 2.

In 8th you get (on average) 3.5. it's as if the template is pointing sideways down the line.

Effectively, all flamers are now torrents.

 Ratius wrote:
Is that a Squat holding a beermug I see?

No, that's a dwarf (I mean, duardin). Also, he's THE white dwarf

 Vaktathi wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:


When is the last time you saw an all lascannon dev squad? You know the one that costs 220 points if you want to bother keeping the heavy weapons alive? And you're going to bring 3 of them? That might make it a little hard to fight orks.

It was an example for the sake of illustration. Replace Devastators with Predator Annihilator or several tac combat squads any other similar stand in if you like. The ultimate point was that it is going to require dramatically fewer shots to kill a dread on average than was needed before, and they were already hurting there.

Lascannon hits on 3 glances on 3 Dreadnought gets no save about 7 shots to kill it, but 3/4ths of the 'wounding hits' have a 1/6th chance to kill it instantly or a small chance of killing it in 2 hits (double immobilize so rolling two 5+s on 3 dice) Largest possible number of glances survived, 3; smallest number of shots needed to die 1.

Lascannon Hits of 3s wounds on 2s(S9 Vs T7) does D6 damage per shot but he gets a 6+ save Takes about 6 shots still to kill it, smallest possible number of shots is 2 to kill it. Largest number of successful wounding shots it could take to kill you, 8.

At worst it's almost exactly the same, at best you survive quite a bit longer.

The biggest point is outside of Lascannons, Bolters, and Flamers vs dreadnoughts we have no idea how anything works or what is or isn't going to be fragile. You're about a half step off from complaining about them being too fragile in 9th.

Also guilliman has lower toughness and only 1 more wound, why aren't you lamenting him?

 Mezmerro wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

In reality, anti-tank weapons are capable of destroying tanks with one hit. Is that still possible in this new edition? I don't know...

It's not, and that's the point. The chance of being on-shot instantly is what kept vehicles undepowered compared to monsters for the last two editions.

Memory bias in effect. People always harp on "omg vehicles can be one-shotted, they suck" and cite a case when their Land Raider blew up on first shot. However, in 6th edition chance to one-shot a vehicle after penetration was 6+ with AP2 weapon or worse: in 7th it is zero unless you have AP2 weapon when it's 6+, and 5+ on AP1.

How was it in 5th edition where vehicles were the king? 5+ with regular weapons, 4+ with AP1. And AP1 Weapons could do it on 6+ on glancing hits...

It was not the One-Shotting which was the problem. it was Hull Points and massive addition of Mid-Strength shooting to the game. Also, Vehicles became much easier to Assault in 6th.

 JimOnMars wrote:
Flamers get buffed for another reason.

Say you are 6" away from a wall of guants. With the template you might be able to clip 3 of them, but more likely just 2.

In 8th you get (on average) 3.5. it's as if the template is pointing sideways down the line.

Effectively, all flamers are now torrents.

Well, no not really. You are correct, they all receive a range boost in a way, but at the same time your never hitting more then 6 models. I have hit 9 guys before with a single template as recent as 2 weeks ago. Flamers didn't get any better or worse, they just work differently I'd say.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:


When is the last time you saw an all lascannon dev squad? You know the one that costs 220 points if you want to bother keeping the heavy weapons alive? And you're going to bring 3 of them? That might make it a little hard to fight orks.

It was an example for the sake of illustration. Replace Devastators with Predator Annihilator or several tac combat squads any other similar stand in if you like. The ultimate point was that it is going to require dramatically fewer shots to kill a dread on average than was needed before, and they were already hurting there.

It is not dramatically less - by any stretch of the imagination. It is about the same.

Right now --
4 shots, 2.7 hits, 0.5 glance and 1.35 pen.

So let's scale that up to work with easier numbers:
24 shots = 3 glance and 8.1 pen

That means over the course of a 6 turn game a team of 4 lascannons could kill almost 4 dreanoughts JUST by hullpoints. Add an at leats one explode statistically and you're at 5 - this is the equivalent of 40 wounds in #New40K.

#New40K
24 shots, 16 hits, 13.3 though armor, 46 wounds

So we go from 40 to 46 a 15% increase (maybe 20%), but it is likely we won't be stunned half the time and have no risk of explosion. The only other piece of the picture we need is whether or not dreads have a damage table (small 8-10 wound monsters in AoS do not).

 Mezmerro wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:


When is the last time you saw an all lascannon dev squad? You know the one that costs 220 points if you want to bother keeping the heavy weapons alive? And you're going to bring 3 of them? That might make it a little hard to fight orks.

It was an example for the sake of illustration. Replace Devastators with Predator Annihilator or several tac combat squads any other similar stand in if you like. The ultimate point was that it is going to require dramatically fewer shots to kill a dread on average than was needed before, and they were already hurting there.

Not dramatically. Hell, not even significantly fewer. At average it was 6.37 in the old edition and it's gonna be 6.17 in the new.
Yeah, 0.2 lascannon shots fewer to kill a dread.
WHAT A DRAMATIC DIFFERENCE!

I think we are using different math. Here's what I posted earlier.

Under the current paradigm an AV12 dread with 3HP will require an average of 6.75 BS4 AP2 Lascannon shots to kill, rounding up, say 7, with a 1/18 chance of any one shot inflicting an Explodes result.

As T7 W8 Sv3+, against a BS4 -3sv mod D6 dmg Lascannon, the chance to one shot is gone, but your average number of shots to kill drops to 4.93, round to 5.

zamerion wrote:

tags added. BIG image.
reds8n

Spoiler:

I can't wait to paint that one!

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I hate to rain on this parade, but those weapon profiles are bizarre to say the least.

They're not even consistent with their own fluff.

Bolters are supposed to fire exploding bolts, but not even a hint of armour piercing? Thus invalidating years of fluff!

So your basic guardsman in flak armour is getting a save against an exploding bolt? Right...

And yeah, the flamer rules have remained static over the years i.e hitting automatically with a template or this new rule, but where's the element of chance? The 1 in 100 instance when the flamer might explode?

And the lascannon is equally bizarre. -3 armour save suggests a slim chance of actually surviving something that is capable of punching through ceramide armour? Terminators getting an invulnerable save? I can buy that, but again, it contradicts their own fluff of a high energy bolt blasting through things.

In reality, anti-tank weapons are capable of destroying tanks with one hit. Is that still possible in this new edition? I don't know...

Very strange decisions made by GW here.

Exploding =\= armor piercing

"Realistically" flakk armor would be great against something that explodes.

The Mass Reactive is the important part as it only exploded after it pierced armour and inmbeded in the target... Messy.

 Desubot wrote:
but it only ever took that 1 shot to kill that 1 dread. that one lucky shot that could ruin an entire game. replace dread with land raider.

its not possible for a single shot to kill a dread or landraider so im not really seeing a problem.

In our last team game, our opponent had Land Raider Crusader filled up with Wolf Guard. On our first turn, we directed 4 Lascannons and 1 Battlecannon on it. Last shot was from my own Land Raider, I threw two sixed and blew his LRC up.

He lost 250 points just like that. Game over? No, he recovered, changed his tactics and won. My own Land Raider survived nearly intact through the game, but it didn't help...

 Ratius wrote:
Is that a Squat holding a beermug I see?

You bet your ass that's a squat holding a freaking beer mug!