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 nintura wrote:
Can't wait to see 1k Sons. I wonder if their bolters will ignore SM armor still? Or just make it harder. And if they'll still be super expensive to the point where you can't really play a full army. And if there are no invuln saves (just assuming here), then what does their mark do now?

Extra wounds and rend, with reduced cost would be good enough. I also have a Thousand son army that I never have bothered to finish due to them being so pityfully poor in the game and also the 7th ed rules in general. I'm not holding my breath that they get them right though

Related to this, I have a fear that one of the gripes I had in the game hasn't changed at all. That is the viability of basic marines. I had wished that they would have given them S/T 5 now when there is no high limit to make them actually elite. Now with the survivability staying as it is and perhaps even worse with lower rend weapons being more dangerous and as the effectiveness of their bolters and close combat prowess seems not to have changed they seem to be just worse now. It would be nice if the poster boys of the game would be more than objective huggers. They succeeded in AoS to make Liberators actually worth their fluff so I had high hopes, but they seem to disappear with every revelation. Well, maybe the truescale marines will have better stats, but of course that's not helping me as a CSM player...

 Bull0 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:
There's bound to be some penalty - additional casualties as you break away would be my assumption.

Yod already covered that. A few extra casualties is no big deal compared to the full army starring at your (now totally exposed) HTH unit.

That already happens if you win the assault and the losers fall back anyway. It's perverse to charge a unit into combat but *try not to kill all the enemies* because *as long as at least one opponent is still engaged with us we're immune to gunfire*

Yes it happened but it was not on defenders choice.

As it is if you can simply walk out of it at will that's something shooty armies WILL do as even extra casualties won't be much of issue. Frankly many shooty armies would easily give up entire unit to allow shooting into the enemy again! What's extra dead model or two when you would happily give out entire unit...

Yes it's illogical that you would want to hold back but as it is it has been one of the essentials for h2h armies and allowing retreat from combat at will, whether or not unit can act is irrelevant(since shooter would be happy to trade off entire unit anyway), is a nerf to assault armies so either assault armies needed a nerf(hah) or they have to hope they get something hefty in return elsewhere to compensate for this.

Regarding the close combat, what I'd be really interested seeing is the weapons. Previously striking last was a big balancing factor for more powerful weapons, but that probably isn't a thing anymore with presumed alternative activation... So how will a power sword and power fist be differentiated, without the latter being just flat out better? (Also, I really still hope that chainswords will get their own dedicated profile, I want them to be better than standard CC weapons, they're iconic.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So, had a look at the new profiles again, and I just noticed they dropped initiative.
Which means there's a good chance that sweeping advance no longer exists. If so, I like it. I hated that rule.

It probably doesn't exist but is instead handled by the new (boring) morale system (i.e. you lose some dudes, fail morale, and lose some more dudes.)

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So, had a look at the new profiles again, and I just noticed they dropped initiative.
Which means there's a good chance that sweeping advance no longer exists. If so, I like it. I hated that rule.

Why? Because it was just about the only way to remove a unit of Necrons from the field?

...yes
Seriously though, I don't like "make this roll and kill everyone" mechanics. The pass or die spells were terrible designs in 8th ed WHFB, and sweeping advance was no better, as all you needed to do was pass an initiative test and you can wipe out whole squads, with no saves permitted. It gets especially egregious when you have a tiny squad of soldiers somehow wiping out a squad several times their number, just because they had a higher initiative value, and that somehow allows them to use Time Stop and kill a bunch of dudes in a single moment, despite what armor the slain were wearing.

 jamopower wrote:

Related to this, I have a fear that one of the gripes I had in the game hasn't changed at all. That is the viability of basic marines. I had wished that they would have given them S/T 5 now when there is no high limit to make them actually elite. Now with the survivability staying as it is and perhaps even worse with lower rend weapons being more dangerous and as the effectiveness of their bolters and close combat prowess seems not to have changed they seem to be just worse now. It would be nice if the poster boys of the game would be more than objective huggers. They succeeded in AoS to make Liberators actually worth their fluff so I had high hopes, but they seem to disappear with every revelation. Well, maybe the truescale marines will have better stats, but of course that's not helping me as a CSM player...

Oh silly you! You need to buy Guilliman's new Superultramarines if you want that!

There's a lot of complains about assault considering we know almost none of the rules for it. For all we know, all assaulting units get +2 attacks on the charge, can consolidate into combat and charges are always their move value (on top of move+run in movement phase). Units fleeing combat might confer heavy cover to the unit which assaulted them for the whole turn. Heck, there could even be substantial victory point gains per unit killed in combat, which would be devastating to shooting armies. We just don't know enough to judge, let alone panic. What we know is that locked in combat, a rule limiting design space (makes consolidating into combat too good, makes first turn charges too good, makes assault from reserves too good, etc) is now gone thanks to units now having the tactical choice to retreat at the expense of doing anything for a turn. That, plus the initiative change, is ALL we know.

Frankly many shooty armies would easily give up entire unit to allow shooting into the enemy again

Then if that's a cost efficient trade for the assaulter, job done anyway right? Now imagine having 4+ assaults in one turn vs a gun line, which doesn't seem unrealistic at all - you've basically just stopped all those units doing ANYTHING: going for objectives, dealing any damage, repositioning, etc. That's a really big deal, because those units are effectively dead for a turn where you've lost no ground. Being shot in return sucks, but I really doubt, given the playtesters histories of complaining about the useless footslogging assault units, that assault will not be viable or strong.

 Megaknob wrote:

 Rippy wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
I'm sure gw believes CC will be viable. You just need to realize that they won't play the game the same as everyone else.

Luckily they mostly out sourced the play testing then....

>When your bashing of GW doesn't work

He is blissfully unaware that they used the big tournament organisations to play test the new rules(they have clearly stated this) the guys that know the game better then games workshop them selves, I have faith in the new Games workshop tm I really do, I wonder how many of the haters are still playing the game.

read back other posts on this topic over last few pages.

 nintura wrote:
Can't wait to see 1k Sons. I wonder if their bolters will ignore SM armor still? Or just make it harder. And if they'll still be super expensive to the point where you can't really play a full army. And if there are no invuln saves (just assuming here), then what does their mark do now?

considering a lascannon doesent even ignore a pwoer suit anymore I doubt it.

 nintura wrote:
Can't wait to see 1k Sons. I wonder if their bolters will ignore SM armor still? Or just make it harder. And if they'll still be super expensive to the point where you can't really play a full army. And if there are no invuln saves (just assuming here), then what does their mark do now?

(speculation)

Inferno Bolts will be an additional -1 rend to the weapon using them. So Heavy Bolters will presumably be -2.
If Rapid Fire is now double your shots if you don't move and Rubrics ignore that then we'll be double tapping at 24" with a -1...good stuff.
If ward saves are gone then extra wounds are possible, but I really doubt they would remove that mechanic entirely.
Cultists will make great bubble wrap to retreat and let us hammer chargers, but who knows what formations we might wind up with.

Psychic Phase is today, so cross your fingers!

They're demonstrating psychic powers today! I'm so excited, and I just can't hide it!

 Crimson wrote:
Regarding the close combat, what I'd be really interested seeing is the weapons. Previously striking last was a big balancing factor for more powerful weapons, but that probably isn't a thing anymore with presumed alternative activation... So how will a power sword and power fist be differentiated, without the latter being just flat out better? (Also, I really still hope that chainswords will get their own dedicated profile, I want them to be better than standard CC weapons, they're iconic.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So, had a look at the new profiles again, and I just noticed they dropped initiative.
Which means there's a good chance that sweeping advance no longer exists. If so, I like it. I hated that rule.

It probably doesn't exist but is instead handled by the new (boring) morale system (i.e. you lose some dudes, fail morale, and lose some more dudes.)

Weapons will be interesting, points costs might be one thing. If Power fists cost 25 points and power swords cost 5 it will make it an interesting choice. Swords also allow for extra attacks with dual wielding. Weapons could also have to hit modifiers built in to show "speed" if your opponent gets +1 to hit against you with a fist or -1 with a sword that will matter.

 jamopower wrote:

 nintura wrote:
Can't wait to see 1k Sons. I wonder if their bolters will ignore SM armor still? Or just make it harder. And if they'll still be super expensive to the point where you can't really play a full army. And if there are no invuln saves (just assuming here), then what does their mark do now?

Extra wounds and rend, with reduced cost would be good enough. I also have a Thousand son army that I never have bothered to finish due to them being so pityfully poor in the game and also the 7th ed rules in general. I'm not holding my breath that they get them right though

Related to this, I have a fear that one of the gripes I had in the game hasn't changed at all. That is the viability of basic marines. I had wished that they would have given them S/T 5 now when there is no high limit to make them actually elite. Now with the survivability staying as it is and perhaps even worse with lower rend weapons being more dangerous and as the effectiveness of their bolters and close combat prowess seems not to have changed they seem to be just worse now. It would be nice if the poster boys of the game would be more than objective huggers. They succeeded in AoS to make Liberators actually worth their fluff so I had high hopes, but they seem to disappear with every revelation. Well, maybe the truescale marines will have better stats, but of course that's not helping me as a CSM player...

For what it is worth 40k community commented that 1k sons are hard to kill in new edition. A poster asked since termies get 2 wounds will rubric power armor get 2 wounds and scarab termies get 3. That was their answer, preceeded by a "trust us".

I have it on good authority they are renaming the game to
"Warhammer 40000: Age of Cautiously Optimistic"

Source: about every third post in any forum on the topic of 8th

tneva82 wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:
There's bound to be some penalty - additional casualties as you break away would be my assumption.

Yod already covered that. A few extra casualties is no big deal compared to the full army starring at your (now totally exposed) HTH unit.

That already happens if you win the assault and the losers fall back anyway. It's perverse to charge a unit into combat but *try not to kill all the enemies* because *as long as at least one opponent is still engaged with us we're immune to gunfire*

Yes it happened but it was not on defenders choice.

As it is if you can simply walk out of it at will that's something shooty armies WILL do as even extra casualties won't be much of issue. Frankly many shooty armies would easily give up entire unit to allow shooting into the enemy again! What's extra dead model or two when you would happily give out entire unit...

Yes it's illogical that you would want to hold back but as it is it has been one of the essentials for h2h armies and allowing retreat from combat at will, whether or not unit can act is irrelevant(since shooter would be happy to trade off entire unit anyway), is a nerf to assault armies so either assault armies needed a nerf(hah) or they have to hope they get something hefty in return elsewhere to compensate for this.

Do we know what phase the fall back is in? I hope that the fall back move happens in the opponents assault phase, so after their shooting phase. You assault, wreck havok. They manage a couple hits back.Then, in the opponents assault phase they can choose to fall back or get slaughtered. If this is the case, you shouldn't be staring down the barrels of guns. (At least that's how it would work in my mind). Also means the defender can choose to sacrifice their guns if they believe they can hold you up or disengage whilst they have manoeuvred their own melee unit for a counter charge. (Assault phase might be disengage, then charges.) Still we don't know the finer points yet or even what phase this all happens in. (Unless I have missed something, which is entirely possible in this behemoth of a thread.)

@tneva I don't think we can judge it as a rule change without knowing all the other changes in the new edition, ultimately. What I'm hearing is "that would be a big nerf to assault armies assuming it's the only rule that changes", which is sort of silly at this point. Worrying rule for assault players? Fine, no argument. Bad rule? Not in the least.

 Rinkydink wrote:


Do we know what phase the fall back is in? I hope that the fall back move happens in the opponents assault phase, so after their shooting phase. You assault, wreck havok. They manage a couple hits back.Then, in the opponents assault phase they can choose to fall back or get slaughtered. If this is the case, you shouldn't be staring down the barrels of guns. (At least that's how it would work in my mind). Also means the defender can choose to sacrifice their guns if they believe they can hold you up or disengage whilst they have manoeuvred their own melee unit for a counter charge. (Assault phase might be disengage, then charges.) Still we don't know the finer points yet or even what phase this all happens in. (Unless I have missed something, which is entirely possible in this behemoth of a thread.)

You can only fall back in your own movement it seems.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 nintura wrote:
Can't wait to see 1k Sons. I wonder if their bolters will ignore SM armor still? Or just make it harder. And if they'll still be super expensive to the point where you can't really play a full army. And if there are no invuln saves (just assuming here), then what does their mark do now?

(speculation)

Inferno Bolts will be an additional -1 rend to the weapon using them. So Heavy Bolters will presumably be -2.
If Rapid Fire is now double your shots if you don't move and Rubrics ignore that then we'll be double tapping at 24" with a -1...good stuff.
If ward saves are gone then extra wounds are possible, but I really doubt they would remove that mechanic entirely.
Cultists will make great bubble wrap to retreat and let us hammer chargers, but who knows what formations we might wind up with.

Psychic Phase is today, so cross your fingers!

I actually think that the standard Thousand Sons bolter may be -2 rend. They're meant to really put the hurt on MEQs. Heavy bolters might not have more rend, but maybe would be higher Strength with more shots to compensate. It seems like there's a lot GW can do with the rend/S ratings to adjust how the weapons work. It would also mean that the entire army isn't hosed simply by virtue of the opponent fielding some Sisters of Silence; no army should have a hard counter like that.

In terms of the ward save, maybe the Thousand Sons will have a rule that rend can only affect their armor saves up to a certain point (i.e., their saves can never be worse than 5+ or 6+ no matter what they're getting hit with), or they'll get an unmodifiable "save after the save" as per AoS (although that may be encroaching on Nurgle territory).

And yes, please, for the love of Tzeentch, address their points cost issues! The Thousand Sons were always the smallest legion, granted, but this is ridiculous!

Daedalus81 wrote:

 nintura wrote:
Can't wait to see 1k Sons. I wonder if their bolters will ignore SM armor still? Or just make it harder. And if they'll still be super expensive to the point where you can't really play a full army. And if there are no invuln saves (just assuming here), then what does their mark do now?

(speculation)

Inferno Bolts will be an additional -1 rend to the weapon using them. So Heavy Bolters will presumably be -2.
If Rapid Fire is now double your shots if you don't move and Rubrics ignore that then we'll be double tapping at 24" with a -1...good stuff.
If ward saves are gone then extra wounds are possible, but I really doubt they would remove that mechanic entirely.
Cultists will make great bubble wrap to retreat and let us hammer chargers, but who knows what formations we might wind up with.

Psychic Phase is today, so cross your fingers!

I'm guessing the rend will be other way around. I feel like they're probably using the current ap values of weapons to determine rend amounts so a weapon with ap 4 I'm expecting rend 1 and a weapon that was ap 3 would probably be rend 2. Falls in line with lascannon being ap 2 and rend 3 so melta could even get rend 4 if they follow that logic.

8th needs to see an end to Overwatch! Overwatch was at best a mechanic to introduce more interaction between players in the assault phase and at worst (and more realistically) a way to punish CC armies. Alternate activation takes care of the former argument now, let's hope CC doesn't remain GW's whipping boy.

So, one thing I keep seeing mentioned is people unsure as to how "Hit and Run" themed units now would function under the new rules.

Envision something like this:

Gryph Hounds wrote:Darting Attacks:
Gryph-hounds attack in a series
of darting strikes. Immediately after this unit
attacks in the combat phase, roll a dice and move
each model in the unit up to that many inches.

So you could have a unit that, thanks to the "Chargers Strike First" and alternating activation can attack and then remove itself from the combat immediately.

I think my biggest concern so far is tracking wounds. Its easy enough when your vehicles are one shot half the time, and you only need to remember one or two hull points here and there, but with large wound pools, things could get difficult.

That's probably why SM are still only one wound. Ease of traking and speed of gameplay.

 Skerr wrote:


For what it is worth 40k community commented that 1k sons are hard to kill in new edition. A poster asked since termies get 2 wounds will rubric power armor get 2 wounds and scarab termies get 3. That was their answer, preceeded by a "trust us".

I hope they still get a ward, because then those terminators are prime targets for anti-tank weapons...

secretForge wrote:
I think my biggest concern so far is tracking wounds. Its easy enough when your vehicles are one shot half the time, and you only need to remember one or two hull points here and there, but with large wound pools, things could get difficult.

D20 is the answer to that problem.

What time do the updates usually go up?

Im certainly gonna be printing some spindown ratchet counters for wound tracking

Earth127 wrote:
That's probably why SM are still only one wound. Ease of traking and speed of gameplay.

You likely won't be spreading wounds anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brian888 wrote:
What time do the updates usually go up?

About an hour from now.

v0iddrgn wrote:
8th needs to see an end to Overwatch! Overwatch was at best a mechanic to introduce more interaction between players in the assault phase and at worst (and more realistically) a way to punish CC armies. Alternate activation takes care of the former argument now, let's hope CC doesn't remain GW's whipping boy.

I'm quite sure that we are not going to see Overwatch in 8th. They will probably import the charge mechanics of AOS, which means that a charge does not have a target.
In AOS your roll 2d6 for move and then you can go toward any enemy unit, even more than one. If you can get a model within half an inch of an unit, then you have started a melee. Overwatch in all this will hardly be present, except as a special rule for some models. AOS has quite a lot of those (razordons, handguneers, maidens of the everqueen etc), and they Overwatch when a model ends a charge move withing 3 inches of the unit.

If with a 2d6 move you can't reach any enemy unit, the charge fails and you don't move.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 nintura wrote:
Can't wait to see 1k Sons. I wonder if their bolters will ignore SM armor still? Or just make it harder. And if they'll still be super expensive to the point where you can't really play a full army. And if there are no invuln saves (just assuming here), then what does their mark do now?

(speculation)

Inferno Bolts will be an additional -1 rend to the weapon using them. So Heavy Bolters will presumably be -2.
If Rapid Fire is now double your shots if you don't move and Rubrics ignore that then we'll be double tapping at 24" with a -1...good stuff.
If ward saves are gone then extra wounds are possible, but I really doubt they would remove that mechanic entirely.
Cultists will make great bubble wrap to retreat and let us hammer chargers, but who knows what formations we might wind up with.

Psychic Phase is today, so cross your fingers!

If a bolter is -0 to save, then a heavy bolter would be -1. I imagine Inferno Bolts would be -2 given they were AP 3 and Heavy Bolters were AP 4.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Skerr wrote:


For what it is worth 40k community commented that 1k sons are hard to kill in new edition. A poster asked since termies get 2 wounds will rubric power armor get 2 wounds and scarab termies get 3. That was their answer, preceeded by a "trust us".

I hope they still get a ward, because then those terminators are prime targets for anti-tank weapons...

They have a save of a 5+ against lascannons. Exactly what they had before.

Spoletta wrote:

v0iddrgn wrote:
8th needs to see an end to Overwatch! Overwatch was at best a mechanic to introduce more interaction between players in the assault phase and at worst (and more realistically) a way to punish CC armies. Alternate activation takes care of the former argument now, let's hope CC doesn't remain GW's whipping boy.

I'm quite sure that we are not going to see Overwatch in 8th. They will probably import the charge mechanics of AOS, which means that a charge does not have a target.
In AOS your roll 2d6 for move and then you can go toward any enemy unit, even more than one. If you can get a model within half an inch of an unit, then you have started a melee. Overwatch in all this will hardly be present, except as a special rule for some models. AOS has quite a lot of those (razordons, handguneers, maidens of the everqueen etc), and they Overwatch when a model ends a charge move withing 3 inches of the unit.

If with a 2d6 move you can't reach any enemy unit, the charge fails and you don't move.

If there is no overwatch then given the changes all ready mentioned(assualt out of any vehicle, charger hits 1st, abysmal fall back rule, AoS crappy morale system,less chance to bypass/reduce saves) shooting armies need.not bother turning up for 8th.