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 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I am happy that my Orks... Really can't get any worse than they are now.

I sure hope you are right....

 Deadshot wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
3 wounds models can be buffed to 5-6, certainly not 8-9. 5 wounds models can get 9 wounds in 8th edition.

Says who?

Extrapolating from our only know source. If posterboy Guilliman gets a 50% increase, and we assume that's "typical", then we've got;

Tyranid Warriors; 4.5 (I'm guessing 4 personally. Going to 5 would make them pure insanity against small arms, especially with the AP to minus save changes making a 4+ save pretty solid)
Hive Tyrant, Carnifex, all 4 wound MCs = 6. I'd like to see Carnifexes bumped WAY up, as I've felt they were supposed to be the hardest to kill MC in the game like back in second edition.
Trygon/Mawloc; 9. I think this is pretty likely as the upper end we will be seeing for Tyranids.

Other things;

Nobz; 3 wounds. Still better than terminators, but I dont see them going to 4 unless they are in mega armor maybe.
Characters/Lords; 4 wounds probably? Going too high makes upgrades for armor and whatnot either too expensive, or too powerful for smaller arms.
Vehicles; Oh my. This will be interesting. We looking at 10-15+ for a Landraider? 9-12 for a Lemun Russ? Predators at 6-10?

How will Eternal warrior interact with multi-wound attacks? Is it straight up gone? Will it cap wounds taken at 2? Will there still be "instant death" for Strength >= double toughness? Will it double the number of wounds the weapon does? So a lascannon on a tyranid warrior does D6x2 wounds?

So SO much to see still, and guessing is half the fun.

 Grimgold wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
I want Dark Eldar to be great again. They aren't bad right now I've seen them do well, but I would like to see them pushed a little strength wise.

I suspect that, if poison remains in the game and works anything like it does now, Dark Eldar are going to be buffed substantially, simply because vehicles are getting a T value as opposed to AV.

Incidentally, I'm hoping that Sternguard keep some form of poison rounds...

No way poisoned shots would hurt vehicles, even if they get a T value instead of the AV.

My thought as well, I suspect we will have keywords in 40k, poison will only work on units with the biological keyword, and haywire will only work on units with the mechanical keyword.

So we find out if Wraithbone is considered by GW to be biological or mechanical.

Possible, but its also possible there's more than one keyword - it might be neither "biological" or "mechanical", but rather "warp-constructed" that ignores both poison and haywire (and their like) but is particularly vulnerable to warp-based bespoke rules.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Possible, but its also possible there's more than one keyword - it might be neither "biological" or "mechanical", but rather "warp-constructed" that ignores both poison and haywire (and their like) but is particularly vulnerable to warp-based bespoke rules.

Demons and Rhubric Marines going to benefit or special snowflake for Craftworld Eldar?

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Possible, but its also possible there's more than one keyword - it might be neither "biological" or "mechanical", but rather "warp-constructed" that ignores both poison and haywire (and their like) but is particularly vulnerable to warp-based bespoke rules.

Demons and Rhubric Marines going to benefit or special snowflake for Craftworld Eldar?

Possibly yes (that WAS just speculation, you understand, right?), I would presume Demons, Legion of the Damned (or were they established to be something other than that?), St. Celestine, any just about anything else that is made of warp-energy rather than flesh & blood or nuts & bolts to benefit and suffer the results.

Immunity to Haywire and Poison, in theory, could be balanced by a particular vulnerability to warp-based attacks. That Pschic Power that deals lots of normal wounds? Now they have +1 to their Rending value (or -1... semantics, you know what I mean)! That force weapon the Librarian just poured his power into? They're Mortal weapons now!

But yeah, I'd want to see anything that is "warp-constructed" like the crystalized plastic of the wraith units, the warp-flesh of daemons, the fiery/incorporeal forms of the Legion of the Damned & St. Celestine... I'd want anything that doesn't fit into the biological or mechanical categories to fit in there.

They also need not be mutually exclusive categories, either - you could have Daemon Engines have both the "mechanical" and "warp-constructed" tags, and have the benefits and vulnerabilities of both, in the same way you could have St. Celestine have both the "organic" and "warp-constructed" tags. That would also apply to having both "biological" and "mechanical" tags - things like certain DE bio-constructs, if memory serves...

Edit: St. Celestine is many things, but mechanical is not among them. I meant organic.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Possible, but its also possible there's more than one keyword - it might be neither "biological" or "mechanical", but rather "warp-constructed" that ignores both poison and haywire (and their like) but is particularly vulnerable to warp-based bespoke rules.

Demons and Rhubric Marines going to benefit or special snowflake for Craftworld Eldar?

Possibly yes (that WAS just speculation, you understand, right?), I would presume Demons, Legion of the Damned (or were they established to be something other than that?), St. Celestine, any just about anything else that is made of warp-energy rather than flesh & blood or nuts & bolts to benefit and suffer the results.

Immunity to Haywire and Poison, in theory, could be balanced by a particular vulnerability to warp-based attacks. That Pschic Power that deals lots of normal wounds? Now they have +1 to their Rending value (or -1... semantics, you know what I mean)! That force weapon the Librarian just poured his power into? They're Mortal weapons now!

But yeah, I'd want to see anything that is "warp-constructed" like the crystalized plastic of the wraith units, the warp-flesh of daemons, the fiery/incorporeal forms of the Legion of the Damned & St. Celestine... I'd want anything that doesn't fit into the biological or mechanical categories to fit in there.

They also need not be mutually exclusive categories, either - you could have Daemon Engines have both the "mechanical" and "warp-constructed" tags, and have the benefits and vulnerabilities of both, in the same way you could have St. Celestine have both the "mechanical" and "warp-constructed" tags. That would also apply to having both "biological" and "mechanical" tags - things like certain DE bio-constructs, if memory serves...

Speculation? Semantics? Never heard of them. BTW who's St Celestine?

Smartassery aside I've been guessing about 8th for about a month now, so many tidbits going about you start to think everyone has a new one.
I was never fond of the tags but I may have to start liking and learning them considering most people are expecting them.

How is Toughness 5 is going to make Tyranid Warriors ''pure insanity'' ?

They are meant to be pretty tough dudes.

 Souleater wrote:
How is Toughness 5 is going to make Tyranid Warriors ''pure insanity'' ?

They are meant to be pretty tough dudes.

That's a reference to the projected number of wounds, not the toughness, given previous examples (Guilliman went from 6 wounds to 9, so there was a 50% increase, applied to the Warrior's existing 3 wounds...), though whether 5 wounds on a 4+ or 5+ armor save is too tough for a single model of their size/fluff... well, that's going to be up to opinions.

If 8th ends up lacking Instant Death mechanics, then 5 wounds seems a bit much, but its really hard to gauge at this point. We just don't know enough.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

 Souleater wrote:
How is Toughness 5 is going to make Tyranid Warriors ''pure insanity'' ?

They are meant to be pretty tough dudes.

That's a reference to the projected number of wounds, not the toughness, given previous examples (Guilliman went from 6 wounds to 9, so there was a 50% increase, applied to the Warrior's existing 3 wounds...), though whether 5 wounds on a 4+ or 5+ armor save is too tough for a single model of their size/fluff... well, that's going to be up to opinions.

If 8th ends up lacking Instant Death mechanics, then 5 wounds seems a bit much, but its really hard to gauge at this point. We just don't know enough.

It seems to be more in line with their fluff though, they are twice the height of Space Marines and tough as nails so 5 wounds seems plenty, especially for their cost. 4 wounds would be acceptable though too. And just because Guilliman got a 50% increase doesn't mean everything will. There's every chance that a Carnifex could hit 30 wounds because we literally know jack gak about this edition right now except what's been teased on Wh40K website

All things are possible, but not all things are probable.

I agree that Guilliman's increase can only give us a little guidance, but with the Dreadnought's stats released, a projection of 30 wounds for a Carnifex is completely outside the ream of probability.

So long as they're priced appropriately, I really don't mind if Tyranid Warriors are 4 wounds or 5. But I'd gladly sacrifice a small percentage of fluff accuracy for balanced gameplay (and frankly, whether its 4 or 5 wounds, that's pretty damn tough for a creature of its size).

 Souleater wrote:
How is Toughness 5 is going to make Tyranid Warriors ''pure insanity'' ?

They are meant to be pretty tough dudes.

I meant wounds, as was mentioned. It's would make them really good because of the sheer damage it takes to grind a warrior down.

At the moment;

Bolters to kill a marine on average (BS4) = ~9
Bolters to kill a Tyranid warrior (T4, 5+ sv, 3w, @BS4) = 9, if they have a 4+ save, it's 18, which is semi-reasonably in line. The AP system makes a mockery of 5+ saves ATM.

Pretty obvious that warriors are very vulnerable right now for their points to small arms.

Projecting for 8th edition;
Bolters to kill a marine on average (@3+ to hit) = ~9 (Ignoring cover for the moment, which may add +1 to saves, making this number 18)
Bolters to kill a warrior (T4, 5+ Sv, 5W, @3+ to hit) = 22.5.

This is a two and a half fold increase in staying power to small arms thanks to the extra wounds and a 5+ save actually being relevant now. With 4 wounds it would be 18 shots, which is STILL double. Man, if we get 5 wounds and a way to upgrade to a 4+ save AND cover adds a +1 to our save? It's going to be 45 bolter shots to put down a warrior in cover. That's a four or five folder increase in staying power. With 5 wounds it also put them out of the "danger zone" of being 1 shotted by lascannons, as they would only be 1 shot about a third of the time then. Just speculation, but T5, W3 would be my guess for their stat line. Makes them harder to kill with small arms (but not insanely so) and the small amount of wounds still lets anti-tank weapon punch them out pretty reliably,

Super excited to see more information about how this shakes out though!

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
All things are possible, but not all things are probable.

I agree that Guilliman's increase can only give us a little guidance, but with the Dreadnought's stats released, a projection of 30 wounds for a Carnifex is completely outside the ream of probability.

So long as they're priced appropriately, I really don't mind if Tyranid Warriors are 4 wounds or 5. But I'd gladly sacrifice a small percentage of fluff accuracy for balanced gameplay (and frankly, whether its 4 or 5 wounds, that's pretty damn tough for a creature of its size).

I wouldn't, I would have fluff accurate units, until the point it becomes grossly unbalanced. And 4-5 wounds only seems massive because the models we are used to seeing with 5-6 wounds are the largest Nid beasties like Exocrines, Tyrannofex and Trygons. We have barely ever seen a Marine character with 6 wounds either, Guilliman being the only one (barring 30k's other Primarchs) but now he's at 9, more than any other model before than wasn't a GMC. 9 wounds to 4/5 is the same ratio as before.

I agree that a Carnifex will not have 30 wounds. My point was that the 4 profiles we've seen so far are not enough empirical evidence to create a formula off. It could very well be that Carnifexes hit 10 wounds, and Trygons 12 or even 15. A Wraithknight or Imperial Knight with 25 wounds isn't outside the realm of probability either. We know literally nothing about this edition except what little has been revealed, about 0.1% of the overall rules.

Ah, my mistake.

Five wounds would seem excessive but who knows what shall come to pass in the Great Upheaval. ..

I haven't played 40k since they started releasing codex supplements in 6th. That's kinda when the rules vomit from GW started and it seemed like everything was hardbound and $50 USD.

I'm very much looking forward to getting back into an Eldar faction, just undecided which.

For Dark Eldar:
I'm hoping the Shadowfield and Agoniser stay in the game. That combo just makes me smile. I also hope Vect is a beast and we get a model for him on foot.

For Eldar:
I hope the Avatar gets a statline as good as the greater demons. I wouldn't mind it if GW made a plastic kit for him on the same scale as FW's.

For the new guys:
They look real cool. I may end up with them because in case you couldn't tell... I really like having a strong HQ murdering stuff. If the Avatar isn't up to task, I'm sure Yncarne will be

 Melissia wrote:
There's still room for skepticism, even if the news so far looks good.

You think it looks good? I fully expect numarines to take all release space for the Imperium and no new SoB model for the next 13 years…

 Deadshot wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
All things are possible, but not all things are probable.

I agree that Guilliman's increase can only give us a little guidance, but with the Dreadnought's stats released, a projection of 30 wounds for a Carnifex is completely outside the ream of probability.

So long as they're priced appropriately, I really don't mind if Tyranid Warriors are 4 wounds or 5. But I'd gladly sacrifice a small percentage of fluff accuracy for balanced gameplay (and frankly, whether its 4 or 5 wounds, that's pretty damn tough for a creature of its size).

I wouldn't, I would have fluff accurate units, until the point it becomes grossly unbalanced. And 4-5 wounds only seems massive because the models we are used to seeing with 5-6 wounds are the largest Nid beasties like Exocrines, Tyrannofex and Trygons. We have barely ever seen a Marine character with 6 wounds either, Guilliman being the only one (barring 30k's other Primarchs) but now he's at 9, more than any other model before than wasn't a GMC. 9 wounds to 4/5 is the same ratio as before.

I agree that a Carnifex will not have 30 wounds. My point was that the 4 profiles we've seen so far are not enough empirical evidence to create a formula off. It could very well be that Carnifexes hit 10 wounds, and Trygons 12 or even 15. A Wraithknight or Imperial Knight with 25 wounds isn't outside the realm of probability either. We know literally nothing about this edition except what little has been revealed, about 0.1% of the overall rules.

agree here. who knows with wounds. personally I have found the tyranid warriors to be over costed as it is mostly because of being instant deathed to str 8. hit it with a missile launcher or las cannon to pop. really unless instant death to double str goes away I would like to see T5 tyranid warriors maintaining a 3 wound count.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
There's still room for skepticism, even if the news so far looks good.

You think it looks good? I fully expect numarines to take all release space for the Imperium and no new SoB model for the next 13 years…

Yes. The rules look good. It's the MarineMarines that look sucky, and that's it. With the new rules, my Guard, Orks, and Sisters should hopefully do better than they have been.