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The question that nags at me is - what was the Emperor's response when he was told the Custodes think the Primarchs are entitled brats?
They were after all HIS entitled brats.

Well, it was a Primarch who put the Emperor in his current situation.

As their only duty is to keep him safe, and they failed due to a Primarch, you can't blame them for being pretty salty about the whole thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
The question that nags at me is - what was the Emperor's response when he was told the Custodes think the Primarchs are entitled brats?
They were after all HIS entitled brats.

Didn't he have a retirement home/prison built for them under the Himilayas for after the Great Crusade? I thought the end plan was always to give them the Thunder Warriors treatment, as he couldn't trust them to keep the peace with the same effectiveness they fought the war.

Though he's often portrayed as seeing them with a sentimental eyes, and as sons, he's also seen to be quite mercenary/pragmatic regarding them, and seeing them as tools. He had two killed (allegedly) and was planning on enslaving Magnus on the Golden Throne, and using him as a living battery.

Hierophant wrote:
Well, it was a Primarch who put the Emperor in his current situation.

As their only duty is to keep him safe, and they failed due to a Primarch, you can't blame them for being pretty salty about the whole thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
The question that nags at me is - what was the Emperor's response when he was told the Custodes think the Primarchs are entitled brats?
They were after all HIS entitled brats.

Didn't he have a retirement home/prison built for them under the Himilayas for after the Great Crusade? I thought the end plan was always to give them the Thunder Warriors treatment, as he couldn't trust them to keep the peace with the same effectiveness they fought the war.

Though he's often portrayed as seeing them with a sentimental eyes, and as sons, he's also seen to be quite mercenary/pragmatic regarding them, and seeing them as tools. He had two killed (allegedly) and was planning on enslaving Magnus on the Golden Throne, and using him as a living battery.

Thunder Warriors aged and died, the Big E hurried a goodly number on their way because they were more efficient than expected and completed their duties before the Big Es guesstimate - but they were never immortal like the Primarchs and Space Marines...maybe the Emperor read Journey to the West?
Immortality? 500 years under a rock should sort you out.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
And? The last primarach that showed up for an unscheduled visit was wearing terminator armor and a really bad topknot.

Since when did Abaddon become a Primarch?

Horus.

As many primarchs rebelled-aka tried to kill Dad as fought with him. As a custodes, unless explicitly ordered, they would be charged to keep these extreme threats back.

look at the end of the day the Custodes decided that Gulliman was whom he said he was,consider he had a living Saint, and an Inqusitor both vouching for him, also Gulliman's location was hardly a great mystery. combined with the fact that GS3pretty much strongly implies Gulliman's return echoed in the warp. hell chances are that even before they saw him the Custodes belived something was up, I mean, someone on Luna roised them out of the Imperial palace... it had to be something they knew was MASSIVLY signfcigent.

It is worth noting that Masters of Mankind is generally pretty horrible from a fluff perspective. It contradicts/cheapens a lot of prior established fluff. I head canon it in to non-existence.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
And? The last primarach that showed up for an unscheduled visit was wearing terminator armor and a really bad topknot.

Since when did Abaddon become a Primarch?

Horus.

As many primarchs rebelled-aka tried to kill Dad as fought with him. As a custodes, unless explicitly ordered, they would be charged to keep these extreme threats back.

Horus didn't have a topknot

 Deadshot wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
And? The last primarach that showed up for an unscheduled visit was wearing terminator armor and a really bad topknot.

Since when did Abaddon become a Primarch?

Horus.

As many primarchs rebelled-aka tried to kill Dad as fought with him. As a custodes, unless explicitly ordered, they would be charged to keep these extreme threats back.

Horus didn't have a topknot

I forgot about the male pattern baldness. Thanks Dad!

The Emperor is functionally dead. The Golden throne barely keeps his cells alive to anchor his spirit to the mortal plain in order to focus the Astronomicon, and his consciousness has been destroyed by thousands of years of constant pain and confinement. The Custodes know this and have known for a long time. The problem is they have not had anyone to confide in outside of there own ranks before Robute's return.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

nareik wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Disrespecting a Primarch openly and muttering behind his back are two very different things.

Remember that tosser in school that nobody liked but nobody hated enough to go out of their way to pick a fight with because he'd probably even whup the school bully? No? My School had one.
Guiliman is like that guy, only he has a thousand or more fawning superhuman idiots who have his back.

Oooh, working with that idea, Guiliman is a school yard Queen Bee?

Manipulative, not necessarily well liked, but fawned over and powerful because they are good at maintaining connections. You can't mess with them as they are ruthless enough to get the drop on people who have lost their usefulness or make themselves an enemy?

Its an interesting idea but it sort of goes against the character he's presented as in the Heresy novels. People love to hate Guilliman (ie, players) because of the Spiritual Liege bull gak that came about and how he's the Alpha-Smurf of the Poster Smurfs. Its his popularity that kills him, but turning to Know No Fear, he's presented as a straight up logistician, no funny business, just a master of organisation and planning, and well, likable. He cares for his Astartes, he shows human emotions, he admits his Codex isn't a master guide to the universe and he doesn't present himself as any sort of nefarious being. He's straight-edged.

I didn't disagree until listening to a Thousand Sons player yesterday and being reminded of the two ways the Burning of Prospero was portrayed in different books.
Guiliman was presented to us as being a straight shooter.
Think on this.
We're presented with a diplomat - the Custodes see a maniplulator.
We see logistics - the Custodes see lives counted as rescources.
Organisation/Planning - Bossy, entitled bratt.
People have a nack for seeing what they choose to see.

GoatboyBeta wrote:
The Emperor is functionally dead. The Golden throne barely keeps his cells alive to anchor his spirit to the mortal plain in order to focus the Astronomicon, and his consciousness has been destroyed by thousands of years of constant pain and confinement. The Custodes know this and have known for a long time. The problem is they have not had anyone to confide in outside of there own ranks before Robute's return.

Did you read that off the back of a box of Korneflakes?

I thought the Emperor ordered the Guard to deploy to Luna, because we know that the Custodians don't do anything without the Emperor saying so.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

nareik wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Disrespecting a Primarch openly and muttering behind his back are two very different things.

Remember that tosser in school that nobody liked but nobody hated enough to go out of their way to pick a fight with because he'd probably even whup the school bully? No? My School had one.
Guiliman is like that guy, only he has a thousand or more fawning superhuman idiots who have his back.

Oooh, working with that idea, Guiliman is a school yard Queen Bee?

Manipulative, not necessarily well liked, but fawned over and powerful because they are good at maintaining connections. You can't mess with them as they are ruthless enough to get the drop on people who have lost their usefulness or make themselves an enemy?

Its an interesting idea but it sort of goes against the character he's presented as in the Heresy novels. People love to hate Guilliman (ie, players) because of the Spiritual Liege bull gak that came about and how he's the Alpha-Smurf of the Poster Smurfs. Its his popularity that kills him, but turning to Know No Fear, he's presented as a straight up logistician, no funny business, just a master of organisation and planning, and well, likable. He cares for his Astartes, he shows human emotions, he admits his Codex isn't a master guide to the universe and he doesn't present himself as any sort of nefarious being. He's straight-edged.

I didn't disagree until listening to a Thousand Sons player yesterday and being reminded of the two ways the Burning of Prospero was portrayed in different books.
Guiliman was presented to us as being a straight shooter.
Think on this.
We're presented with a diplomat - the Custodes see a maniplulator.
We see logistics - the Custodes see lives counted as rescources.
Organisation/Planning - Bossy, entitled bratt.
People have a nack for seeing what they choose to see.

Maybe but I'd caution about reading TOO much into things, there is simply no evidance what the Custodes think of Gulliman in partiuclar, it's just as possiable they look at him secretly think "he's the only primarch worth a damn"

as for master of mandkind I'm very skeptical about taking anything from there as hard proof beyond "the emperor, through his vast psykic powers, is all things to all people" it seems to me that people see and hear what they want to from the emperor. with that in mind perhaps the Heresy was inevitable, not even the vast psykic power of the emperor would enable that to remain in place forever

Probably because he just got finished punching out Magnus with the Sisters of Silence and Custodes on Luna, and if he's feeling fine in the prescence of the Silent Sisterhood he probably isnt a Chaos agent.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

nareik wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Disrespecting a Primarch openly and muttering behind his back are two very different things.

Remember that tosser in school that nobody liked but nobody hated enough to go out of their way to pick a fight with because he'd probably even whup the school bully? No? My School had one.
Guiliman is like that guy, only he has a thousand or more fawning superhuman idiots who have his back.

Oooh, working with that idea, Guiliman is a school yard Queen Bee?

Manipulative, not necessarily well liked, but fawned over and powerful because they are good at maintaining connections. You can't mess with them as they are ruthless enough to get the drop on people who have lost their usefulness or make themselves an enemy?

Its an interesting idea but it sort of goes against the character he's presented as in the Heresy novels. People love to hate Guilliman (ie, players) because of the Spiritual Liege bull gak that came about and how he's the Alpha-Smurf of the Poster Smurfs. Its his popularity that kills him, but turning to Know No Fear, he's presented as a straight up logistician, no funny business, just a master of organisation and planning, and well, likable. He cares for his Astartes, he shows human emotions, he admits his Codex isn't a master guide to the universe and he doesn't present himself as any sort of nefarious being. He's straight-edged.

I didn't disagree until listening to a Thousand Sons player yesterday and being reminded of the two ways the Burning of Prospero was portrayed in different books.
Guiliman was presented to us as being a straight shooter.
Think on this.
We're presented with a diplomat - the Custodes see a maniplulator.
We see logistics - the Custodes see lives counted as rescources.
Organisation/Planning - Bossy, entitled bratt.
People have a nack for seeing what they choose to see.

Maybe but I'd caution about reading TOO much into things, there is simply no evidance what the Custodes think of Gulliman in partiuclar, it's just as possiable they look at him secretly think "he's the only primarch worth a damn"

as for master of mandkind I'm very skeptical about taking anything from there as hard proof beyond "the emperor, through his vast psykic powers, is all things to all people" it seems to me that people see and hear what they want to from the emperor. with that in mind perhaps the Heresy was inevitable, not even the vast psykic power of the emperor would enable that to remain in place forever

Heh, I'm regularly guilty of reading too much into things - too much time on my hands I guess.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Probably because he just got finished punching out Magnus with the Sisters of Silence and Custodes on Luna, and if he's feeling fine in the prescence of the Silent Sisterhood he probably isnt a Chaos agent.

it's also possiable that he was expected. it's really NOT out of the realm of the possiable to have sent a astropathic message to Terra saying "ohh hey good news, Gulliman's recovered, he's en route to Terra now" I mean GS3 made it clear that word spread fast about his return.

 Ginsu33 wrote:

GoatboyBeta wrote:
The Emperor is functionally dead. The Golden throne barely keeps his cells alive to anchor his spirit to the mortal plain in order to focus the Astronomicon, and his consciousness has been destroyed by thousands of years of constant pain and confinement. The Custodes know this and have known for a long time. The problem is they have not had anyone to confide in outside of there own ranks before Robute's return.

Did you read that off the back of a box of Korneflakes?

I thought the Emperor ordered the Guard to deploy to Luna, because we know that the Custodians don't do anything without the Emperor saying so.

Well the Custodes would say that wouldn't they

GoatboyBeta wrote:

 Ginsu33 wrote:

GoatboyBeta wrote:
The Emperor is functionally dead. The Golden throne barely keeps his cells alive to anchor his spirit to the mortal plain in order to focus the Astronomicon, and his consciousness has been destroyed by thousands of years of constant pain and confinement. The Custodes know this and have known for a long time. The problem is they have not had anyone to confide in outside of there own ranks before Robute's return.

Did you read that off the back of a box of Korneflakes?

I thought the Emperor ordered the Guard to deploy to Luna, because we know that the Custodians don't do anything without the Emperor saying so.

Well the Custodes would say that wouldn't they

Given the amount of fluff over the years that flat out says the Emperor still manifest his will to his subjects, through his tarot, or taking direct action on the behalf of some of them I'd say he's very much conscious and alive. It would be very odd indeed if he wasn't given that he easily speaks into the mind of the Custodes while on the throne during the War in the Webway. Or the fact that he's able to not only communicate with Celestine, but also reform her body in the warp and power her. In Master of Mankind we see hints that the Legion of the Damned are likely also manifestations of his will.

On the Custodes disliking the Primarchs; there just mirroring the Emperors own attitude. To the Emperor the Primachs were just tools that he refereed to by number rather than by name. Outside of Horus who he's spent a century with he doesn't seem to care about them all that much. Take Angron his concern isn't that his "son" is dying; but rather this tools will were out early and is will inconvenience his plans. It seems the Emperor values personal relationships over "blood". He cares for his Malcador, his Custodes, and the sisterhood far more than the Primach's or legions.

The Custodes bow to Guilliman in GS3, something they're said to only for the Emperor in MoM. So he probably earned a lot of respect during the Scouring and his time as Lord Commander.

Animus wrote:
The Custodes bow to Guilliman in GS3, something they're said to only for the Emperor in MoM. So he probably earned a lot of respect during the Scouring and his time as Lord Commander.

He is also closest thing to a leader they can respect.

Sqaubling highlords.
Inquisition who play endless power games
Marines who so easily where driven to destroy the empire they built
Religious zelots
Tech hoarders'
Various others as I cannot think bur there is many more.

Guilman looks pretty good to me...

 jhe90 wrote:

Animus wrote:
The Custodes bow to Guilliman in GS3, something they're said to only for the Emperor in MoM. So he probably earned a lot of respect during the Scouring and his time as Lord Commander.

He is also closest thing to a leader they can respect.

Sqaubling highlords.
Inquisition who play endless power games
Marines who so easily where driven to destroy the empire they built
Religious zelots
Tech hoarders'
Various others as I cannot think bur there is many more.

Guilman looks pretty good to me...

could be a bit of both, also you gotta consider "the game" to consider. even if the custodes themselves didn't care much for Gulliman, as you said he's the best alternative, putting on a show of deep respect for him, would publicly soldify Gulliman's power base, so they'll bite their tounges and bow because it's in their best intreasts to.

BrianDavion wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

Animus wrote:
The Custodes bow to Guilliman in GS3, something they're said to only for the Emperor in MoM. So he probably earned a lot of respect during the Scouring and his time as Lord Commander.

He is also closest thing to a leader they can respect.

Sqaubling highlords.
Inquisition who play endless power games
Marines who so easily where driven to destroy the empire they built
Religious zelots
Tech hoarders'
Various others as I cannot think bur there is many more.

Guilman looks pretty good to me...

could be a bit of both, also you gotta consider "the game" to consider. even if the custodes themselves didn't care much for Gulliman, as you said he's the best alternative, putting on a show of deep respect for him, would publicly soldify Gulliman's power base, so they'll bite their tounges and bow because it's in their best intreasts to.

Actually from what I remember they bow only behind closed doors.

Animus wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

Animus wrote:
The Custodes bow to Guilliman in GS3, something they're said to only for the Emperor in MoM. So he probably earned a lot of respect during the Scouring and his time as Lord Commander.

He is also closest thing to a leader they can respect.

Sqaubling highlords.
Inquisition who play endless power games
Marines who so easily where driven to destroy the empire they built
Religious zelots
Tech hoarders'
Various others as I cannot think bur there is many more.

Guilman looks pretty good to me...

could be a bit of both, also you gotta consider "the game" to consider. even if the custodes themselves didn't care much for Gulliman, as you said he's the best alternative, putting on a show of deep respect for him, would publicly soldify Gulliman's power base, so they'll bite their tounges and bow because it's in their best intreasts to.

Actually from what I remember they bow only behind closed doors.

Given they are Emparors bodyguard, even in private they would be a rather large statement of intent behind gulliman.
In the palace they even have defacto authority against anyone inside tyhr walls.