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 r_squared wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
...Who will trust the Tories again after this sell-out?
.....And yet, come the next election, millions of people will still vote for them...


If I live to be a million, I'll never understand why...

You're not the only one. How anyone can equate current conservatives with fiscal responsibility and stability is utterly beyond me.

They are quite literally breaking the country apart, and people still vote for them. It's surreal, you feel a bit foolish pointing out that what your mate has just parroted out is in fact utter bollocks. You'd think everyone would know, or at least be able to read, and remember back further than the last couple of days. But when it comes to the conservatives, it's like some shutter comes down and just blanks off everything they've actually done.

It's mind boggling.

Farage of all people predicted this last year. He said the Tories would do this, then campaign on a GE pledge to take us out of the EU.

We really mean it this time - is that what they're print on their manifesto?

I may as well head over to the EU website and see what jobs are available. We're clearly to incompetent to beat them, so we may as well join them

God damn, two years ago, we had the future in our hands. We could have had a bold vision to build a Britain fit for the 21st century to face the challenges heading our way.

Instead we got bank managers fretting over paperclips, and principals going out the window from a party that values self-preservation over national interest every time.

Spivs, chancers, has beens, and petty intellectuals have well and truly fethed over Brexit.

I now live in hope that Barnier rides to the rescue

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


Farage of all people predicted this last year. He said the Tories would do this, then campaign on a GE pledge to take us out of the EU.

We really mean it this time - is that what they're print on their manifesto?

I may as well head over to the EU website and see what jobs are available. We're clearly to incompetent to beat them, so we may as well join them

God damn, two years ago, we had the future in our hands. We could have had a bold vision to build a Britain fit for the 21st century to face the challenges heading our way.

Instead we got bank managers fretting over paperclips, and principals going out the window from a party that values self-preservation over national interest every time.

Spivs, chancers, has beens, and petty intellectuals have well and truly fethed over Brexit.

I now live in hope that Barnier rides to the rescue

You know, I was going to post this link

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-44747444

and then start a count down until DINLT exploded, but I walk in and he's already gone up like a a two thousand pound UXB!

Honestly,I'd say cancel leaving the EU and just leave them all to swing, honestly. Not one of them would know what to do then.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

God damn, two years ago, we had the future in our hands. We could have had a bold vision to build a Britain fit for the 21st century to face the challenges heading our way.

This is what happens when you believe lies printed on the side of a bus or refuse to read past the headlines. You never had 'the future' in your hands, and you have been repeatedly told this, and demonstrated this.Britain was never going to get a better deal out of this than the one you had. Thinking anything else frankly is delusional.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Instead we got bank managers fretting over paperclips, and principals going out the window from a party that values self-preservation over national interest every time.

Or maybe leaving the eu is simply fraught with problems. I know you're happy to leave and for us all to end up in a cave banging rocks after this, but thankfully, not everyone is this short sighted.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Spivs, chancers, has beens, and petty intellectuals have well and truly fethed over Brexit.

Or maybe, brexit was just a really really terribly bad idea in the first place and completely self destructive, short sighted and self indulgent. But hey, you won. This is all yours. And you get to own it.

The government itself has got into the petty pro-Brexit lying game.

The Blue Passport lie was the first notable example. Now we have the bs about the fishing quotas.

To prove it's not all about Brexit, Universal Credit is being enthusiastically lied about too.

I realise that tactical and strategic lying is a necessary part of life and politics, but the lies the government is making up are so easily disproved, it shows they have contempt for the public.

Perhaps rightly so.

So that's it? After all the posturing and strutting about I was expecting some kind of middle aged public school boy battle royale. But they all just meekly rolled over for the weekend? No doubt the spineless morons will be back to sniping at each other within the week, but what am I going to do with all this popcorn?

Ah what a morning to wake. It's really amusing to watch country to tear itself down. And to boot after knowingly willingly voting to do so.

And top of that to do so in so stupid way. They spend hours and release this? Why even bother. Eu will simply say "nope" on this attemp to cherry pick things.

Too bad don't have popcorn. Reading latest news is better than movies.

If the cabinet Brexiteers don't fall in line now then May simply has to sack them. You can't have this much-publicised reconciling of positions then let ministers start briefing against it or any remaining shred of authority is gone.

Edit: Read one interesting theory on the tweets that the senior Brexiteers would have nothing to gain from rebellion now - if the ERG & more send the letters in to the 1922 that forces a leadership contest they can take their chances in that and try to force a new position if they win. Personally I don't see it, but I don't claim to understand the Tory mindset.

Spivs, chancers, has beens, and petty intellectuals have well and truly fethed over Brexit.

Sounds like the cast of Dads Army.

But seriously, no. It was never going to work. What would a successful "21st century British Brexit" even look like? You can't claim we missed the opportunity to climb to the sunny Brexit uplands if nobody has ever shown they existed.

What were you actually expecting to happen?

I mean, how was brexit ever going to work?

I don't mean to be harsh on you; but none of the brexit plans held up to even the mildest scrutiny.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 r_squared wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
...Who will trust the Tories again after this sell-out?
.....And yet, come the next election, millions of people will still vote for them...


If I live to be a million, I'll never understand why...

You're not the only one. How anyone can equate current conservatives with fiscal responsibility and stability is utterly beyond me.

They are quite literally breaking the country apart, and people still vote for them. It's surreal, you feel a bit foolish pointing out that what your mate has just parroted out is in fact utter bollocks. You'd think everyone would know, or at least be able to read, and remember back further than the last couple of days. But when it comes to the conservatives, it's like some shutter comes down and just blanks off everything they've actually done.

It's mind boggling.

The "I'm alright, Jack" 's seem to believe that a Labour government means giving more of their hard earned to scroungers, so would rather vote in Cthulu than Labour.

Which would be fine if privatisation ever saved money or improved services.

What’s not to get?

The EU isn’t negotiating terms, it’s saying “these are the rules, sign up or don’t”.

You could send a thousand Dakka members, the EU doesn’t give a feth.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


God damn, two years ago, we had the future in our hands. We could have had a bold vision to build a Britain fit for the 21st century to face the challenges heading our way.

Instead we got bank managers fretting over paperclips, and principals going out the window from a party that values self-preservation over national interest every time.

Spivs, chancers, has beens, and petty intellectuals have well and truly fethed over Brexit.

I now live in hope that Barnier rides to the rescue

Now I am going to stick my head on the line, as an ardent supporter of staying in the EU, but will note that leaving the EU could have been a success. There is however a huge *BUT*

This should have been just like any other project. The options, risks, issues and so forth should have all been considered and appropriately managed. This is a project that should take 30 years and there are reasons for this. We have an economy heavily reliant on the the service industry and an externally supplied industry (e.g. Airbus, car manufacturers etc). These are all heavily reliant on the EU and being in the single market with freedom of movement. The whole economy would need to be reworked to not rely on the EU at this macro scale. You need to determine an area that UK can become leaders in that isn't reliant on this type of structure. In some ways similar to Japan or South Korea where they are heavily invested in electronics manufacturing that everyone wants. So for the sake of argument lets say robotics/AI. So you need to invest heavily in these areas and start withdrawing support slowly to those areas of services you no longer want to support (e.g. banking). Once you are a world leader in this area now you are not reliant on the EU at the macro economic scale (everyone wants your robots and AI). With this revised economy you can now determine the most appropriate working relationship with the EU. You can the leave safely knowing that you are not reliant on the macroscale working of the EU.

However this is generational project planning. We did not get this. We got an adhoc political whim of a promise. There was no thought to the consequences or what it meant. It was never meant to succeed, it was a political game nothing more.
So now when the unexpected happened and we got a split vote then there was no project plan, no idea of what it meant, just a view on what people wanted and why but which varied depending on which person you spoke to.
You were sold a honeytrap. You were given all these 'aspirational' things that aligned with your view on the world but with no practical application as to how it would work or whether it would work.

As such the things you wanted were never going to happen (either we'd leave hard and it would be an economic disaster, or we stay in/so closely aligned that you'd never be happy). And that largely is what people have been saying here for some time. What you want isn't going to happen. Not because it can't happen, but because the planning to get that stage was never undertaken, never planned for and hence were travelling a cliff edge blindfolded.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Baragash wrote:
What’s not to get?

The EU isn’t negotiating terms, it’s saying “these are the rules, sign up or don’t”.

You could send a thousand Dakka members, the EU doesn’t give a feth.

I think the point is that they were more realistic about the options and that we are now almost at the place that people were saying from day 1. You get to choose the section of the club you are in, but the EU won't change those groupings.

Well, you may as well start a campaign to get us back into the EU, and whilst you're at it, you can put my name down on the paper.

Hell, If we're staying in the EU anyway, we may as well try and salvage our rebate and opt outs back and grab a chair at the commission table.

If we're lucky, the EU might be in a generous mood.

Feth me, a 40 billion down payment and 2 years of bollocks just to end up back where we started...

If I were to vent my true feelings about the wretched and treacherous snakes that pass as the Tory party, I'd be banned from dakka.

They have been nothing but a millstone around this country's neck for 200 years!

May they rot in hell.

 Whirlwind wrote:

I think the point is that they were more realistic about the options and that we are now almost at the place that people were saying from day 1. You get to choose the section of the club you are in, but the EU won't change those groupings.

I guess we'll never know if no deal would have put those autocrats in their place.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Well, you may as well start a campaign to get us back into the EU, and whilst you're at it, you can put my name down on the paper.

Hell, If we're staying in the EU anyway, we may as well try and salvage our rebate and opt outs back and grab a chair at the commission table.

If we're lucky, the EU might be in a generous mood.

Feth me, a 40 billion down payment and 2 years of bollocks just to end up back where we started...

If I were to vent my true feelings about the wretched and treacherous snakes that pass as the Tory party, I'd be banned from dakka.

They have been nothing but a millstone around this country's neck for 200 years!

May they rot in hell.

This is going exactly as remain predicted, but no, that was “project fear” and we were going to sail off in to the Atlantic in winds driven entirely by Farages smug self satisfaction and the angry blowhards of middle England.

We told you that it was not easy. We told you that you could not neatly tie up all the complex beauracracy and sort out deals with the rest of the world in a few months and ensure we were not cut off on our own, but that was shouted down and dismissed with experts suddenly gaining inverted commers and anyone who was against it branded a traitor.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Well, you may as well start a campaign to get us back into the EU, and whilst you're at it, you can put my name down on the paper.
Hell, If we're staying in the EU anyway, we may as well try and salvage our rebate and opt outs back and grab a chair at the commission table.
If we're lucky, the EU might be in a generous mood.
Feth me, a 40 billion down payment and 2 years of bollocks just to end up back where we started...
If I were to vent my true feelings about the wretched and treacherous snakes that pass as the Tory party, I'd be banned from dakka.
They have been nothing but a millstone around this country's neck for 200 years!
May they rot in hell.

It's almost like brexit is a really really terribly bad idea, to the point where it's unworkable. But hey, we told you this. And you didn't want to listen.

But hey, it's good to see you trying to blame someone else again instead of owning up to, and admitting to the foolishness of brexit.

So yeah, still no sympathy.

Nobody is seeing the bigger picture here, and this is what I've been warning about for 2 years.

Whatever you may think of Brexit, the vote was the biggest in British political history for anything. It had a right to be respected and implemented.

Instead, vast swathes of the British electorate, who only ever voted in 2016, because they thought their vote was worth a damn for once...

have been disenfranchised.

Given that GE election turnout has been in a historical decline since the 1990s, given that trust and faith in politicians has never been lower...

Who seriously thinks that this modern day Munich will improve any of that?

May's short-terminism has dealt a severe blow to British democracy, and I seriously don't think the country will ever recover from it...

Why would anybody ever bother to vote again?

No doubt some Remainers in the media will be overjoyed at working-class voters never voting again,

but there will be a vacuum, there always is, and I doubt if we'll like the people who will fill it...

If you think Farage was bad, you ain't seen nothing yet...

Me? I doubt if I'll ever vote again. I'll pull up the drawbridge, withdraw from doing my civic duty, and let the country get on with it.

The money men have won, as they always do, and I say to everybody on this thread, be they Remain or Leave, that's bad, because they don't care about us, only the bottom line...

They are not our friends. And they never will be...

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Nobody is seeing the bigger picture here, and this is what I've been warning about for 2 years.

Whatever you may think of Brexit, the vote was the biggest in British political history for anything. It had a right to be respected and implemented.

Instead, vast swathes of the British electorate, who only ever voted in 2016, because they thought their vote was worth a damn for once...

have been disenfranchised.

Given that GE election turnout has been in a historical decline since the 1990s, given that trust and faith in politicians has never been lower...

Who seriously thinks that this modern day Munich will improve any of that?

May's short-terminism has dealt a severe blow to British democracy, and I seriously don't think the country will ever recover from it...

Why would anybody ever bother to vote again?

No doubt some Remainers in the media will be overjoyed at working-class voters never voting again,

but there will be a vacuum, there always is, and I doubt if we'll like the people who will fill it...

If you think Farage was bad, you ain't seen nothing yet...

Me? I doubt if I'll ever vote again. I'll pull up the drawbridge, withdraw from doing my civic duty, and let the country get on with it.

The money men have won, as they always do, and I say to everybody on this thread, be they Remain or Leave, that's bad, because they don't care about us, only the bottom line...

They are not our friends. And they never will be...

Bollocks.

Seriously the money men have won is the best you can come up with?

Ok let's ignore Fartgas and his mates in banking shorting the pound on referendum night.

Ok let's ignore John "the Vulcan" Redwood telling his clients to get there investments out of the UK.

Ok let's ignore Lord Haw Haw Moggy hiding his money in sanctioned Russian banks and looking forward to making a killing when the economy crashes. Oh and the new EU tax laws he is desperate to avoid.

Ok let's ignore the other dozen or so Tory/Brexiters advising clients to get the investments out of the UK and into the EU

I could go on but as we can see it was the "money men" who sabotaged brexit. Seriously it was not that Brexiteer are fantasies and xenophobes with no plan more than furriners out.

If the electorate votes to put their collective hands in acid, don't be surprised when two years later the politicians decide that vinegar is the best option.

Complaining that the electorate will accept nothing weaker than sulphuric acid is a) not true, b) still stupid.

If anybody thinks that the money men don't have their hooks in the EU, then they ought to have their picture in the dictionary under naïve.

You only have to look at Cyrpus, Malta and Luxembourg.

People often ask me why I was anti-EU, but as a long time socialist, it's pretty self-evident.

Who seriously thinks that the free movement of money, goods and people benefits the working-classes of Europe?

It's been a corporate stich up since the coal and steel days. That Thatcher was behind the single market tells me everything I need to know about the whole damn project.

 Whirlwind wrote:
...Now I am going to stick my head on the line, as an ardent supporter of staying in the EU, but will note that leaving the EU could have been a success. There is however a huge *BUT*

This should have been just like any other project. The options, risks, issues and so forth should have all been considered and appropriately managed. This is a project that should take 30 years and there are reasons for this. We have an economy heavily reliant on the the service industry and an externally supplied industry (e.g. Airbus, car manufacturers etc). These are all heavily reliant on the EU and being in the single market with freedom of movement. The whole economy would need to be reworked to not rely on the EU at this macro scale. You need to determine an area that UK can become leaders in that isn't reliant on this type of structure. In some ways similar to Japan or South Korea where they are heavily invested in electronics manufacturing that everyone wants. So for the sake of argument lets say robotics/AI. So you need to invest heavily in these areas and start withdrawing support slowly to those areas of services you no longer want to support (e.g. banking). Once you are a world leader in this area now you are not reliant on the EU at the macro economic scale (everyone wants your robots and AI). With this revised economy you can now determine the most appropriate working relationship with the EU. You can the leave safely knowing that you are not reliant on the macroscale working of the EU...

Bizarrely, an ardent EU supporter has provided the only real, workable plan to withdraw ourselves in an orderly and agreeable fashion. I would actually have voted leave, if this was the way we were going to do it.

However, it's too long term for the electorate, and doesn't also carry the immediate satisfaction of telling the Tories and Europe to go feth itself, which is why it'd probably ever work.

Well done anyway chap, it's a shame it's a bit long winded to stick on the side of a bus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
If anybody thinks that the money men don't have their hooks in the EU, then they ought to have their picture in the dictionary under naïve.

You only have to look at Cyrpus, Malta and Luxembourg.

People often ask me why I was anti-EU, but as a long time socialist, it's pretty self-evident.

Who seriously thinks that the free movement of money, goods and people benefits the working-classes of Europe?

It's been a corporate stich up since the coal and steel days. That Thatcher was behind the single market tells me everything I need to know about the whole damn project.

You make good points, however, the EU provided structures for trades between nations and collective bargaining with other super economies, you could still happily run a social democracy within it with nationalised infrastructure and workable unions etc with very little interference.
I'm a socialist, and I see no real problems with free movement of people or capital.

Thatchers destruction of industry and remoulding of society into a neo-liberal one had nothing to do with the EU, that was her, or more precisely ourselves.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Nobody is seeing the bigger picture here, and this is what I've been warning about for 2 years.

Pot. Kettle. Black. You are self righteous. You are the zealous ideologue that is blind to the bigger picture, because you are so obsessed with 'headlines' that you don't care about any of the details and intricacies involved in this mess or who will suffer as a result. All you care about are sound bites and none for pragmatism or practicalities.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Whatever you may think of Brexit, the vote was the biggest in British political history for anything. It had a right to be respected and implemented.
Instead, vast swathes of the British electorate, who only ever voted in 2016, because they thought their vote was worth a damn for once...
have been disenfranchised.

Horsegak.

Hmm. So the govt pushing ahead with brexit as their only priority is not somehow respecting and implementing the referendum result. No one has been disenfranchised.

Jesus Christ, I know you are wilfully blind to the bigger picture and it seems consequences, and are happy with us all banging rocks in caves after this as an acceptable price, but not everyone is willing to do that. For very good bloody reasons. the shocking thing is there are loads of jobs and livelihoods out there that you don't care about that rely on Europe and the integration that we have developed, along with almost 50% of the population that wanted to remain.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Given that GE election turnout has been in a historical decline since the 1990s, given that trust and faith in politicians has never been lower...
Who seriously thinks that this modern day Munich will improve any of that?

It's almost like the whole thing is complicated with a lot of consequences for making mistakes.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

May's short-terminism has dealt a severe blow to British democracy, and I seriously don't think the country will ever recover from it...
Why would anybody ever bother to vote again?

Your usual black and white hysteria. Tory Infighting aside, the bigger picture requires a healthy relationship with the EU, since so much of what we do, sell and buy goes there. 'Out means out' is a great soundbite, but again, zealous dogma means reality and it's worthless.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

No doubt some Remainers in the media will be overjoyed at working-class voters never voting again,
but there will be a vacuum, there always is, and I doubt if we'll like the people who will fill it...
If you think Farage was bad, you ain't seen nothing yet...

Hysteria.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Me? I doubt if I'll ever vote again. I'll pull up the drawbridge, withdraw from doing my civic duty, and let the country get on with it.

Hypocrite and coward.

No. You don't get to do this. You voted for this. This is yours. You are the last person in line who gets to wash his hands of this. You get to own it. And we get to remind you of this idiocy.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

The money men have won, as they always do, and I say to everybody on this thread, be they Remain or Leave, that's bad, because they don't care about us, only the bottom line...
They are not our friends. And they never will be...

It's the other way around. The money men were on your side. Don't you get it? Brexit is a goldmine for people like that. They wanted this. They get to asset strip this country now. And you just fell I need line and gave it to the disaster capitalists and are too blind and Self righteous to see it.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Whatever you may think of Brexit, the vote was the biggest in British political history for anything. It had a right to be respected and ver will be... :

Simple yes/no question for you. Are we leaving the EU? Give me a one word answer. No “not in any meaningful way” or “yes but” or any of that. Yes or no. Are we leaving the EU? That was the question at the referendum and those were the choices. There is no way anyone can say no to that. It may not be the way you wanted, but we are leaving the EU. If you wanted something in particular perhaps you should blaim the leave campaign for norelying on populism and vague pronouncements rather than setting out a clear vision.

I’m not expecting you to give a direct answer, but I hope you do. Yes or no to a simple question.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Nobody is seeing the bigger picture here,

. no, the people here/elsewhere who voted remain or kept explaining why the Brexit idea -- cannot really call it a plan can you eh ? -- kept talking about the big picture, or reality as we called it, since the start.

I doubt if I'll ever vote again. I'll pull up the drawbridge, withdraw from doing my civic duty, and let the country get on with it.

... oddly enough this is exactly what you did by voting for Brexit too.

Go figure.

The money men have won, as they always do, and I say to everybody on this thread, be they Remain or Leave, that's bad, because they don't care about us, only the bottom line...

They are not our friends. And they never will be...

.. he said when voting for them.

Almost unbelievable.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertonardelli/this-is-what-the-eu-really-thinks-about-theresa-mays-new?utm_term=.fexOqOgEb#.aqkJ3JAXd

But, privately, the 27 EU leaders have already been informed by Brussels that May’s plans would cross red lines the leaders set out in the EU’s negotiating position, BuzzFeed News can reveal.

The EU27’s initial assessment, the details of which have been seen by BuzzFeed News, is that proposals included in the paper – such as remaining in the single market for goods without the single market’s other freedoms (people, services and capital), and a clear legal oversight mechanism – are unacceptable.

Brussels also feels that May’s new customs proposal, which would see Britain collect duties on behalf of the EU, looks a lot like the customs partnership they have already rejected, according to the assessment.

A pledge by the UK to not let standards on the environment, climate change, social, employment and consumer protection fall below their current levels, is welcome by Brussels, but EU capitals have been warned that it requires further detailed assessment.

good times.

You've arrived in the nick of time reds8n, because I was looking for a Mod.

Is it possible to have the Union Jack next to my name changed to a white flag to reflect the UK's new status?

At any rate, I suppose that buzzfeed link you posted is good news of a sort.

The bad news is that the EU knows that May has a spine made from rubber, not steel, so she'll likely concede further ground to them in return for zero...

There's never been a negotiation this bad since the Native Americans sold New York for a crust of bread and a half-empty bottle of rum...



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Steve steveson wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Whatever you may think of Brexit, the vote was the biggest in British political history for anything. It had a right to be respected and ver will be... :

Simple yes/no question for you. Are we leaving the EU? Give me a one word answer. No “not in any meaningful way” or “yes but” or any of that. Yes or no. Are we leaving the EU? That was the question at the referendum and those were the choices. There is no way anyone can say no to that. It may not be the way you wanted, but we are leaving the EU. If you wanted something in particular perhaps you should blaim the leave campaign for norelying on populism and vague pronouncements rather than setting out a clear vision.

I’m not expecting you to give a direct answer, but I hope you do. Yes or no to a simple question.

Don't think I'm only directing flak towards Remain.


I am blaming Leave. They were fething hopeless.

Juncker could have done a better job than Gove, Bojo, and Fox.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Well, you may as well start a campaign to get us back into the EU, and whilst you're at it, you can put my name down on the paper.

Hell, If we're staying in the EU anyway, we may as well try and salvage our rebate and opt outs back and grab a chair at the commission table.

If we're lucky, the EU might be in a generous mood.

Feth me, a 40 billion down payment and 2 years of bollocks just to end up back where we started...

If I were to vent my true feelings about the wretched and treacherous snakes that pass as the Tory party, I'd be banned from dakka.

They have been nothing but a millstone around this country's neck for 200 years!

May they rot in hell.

I’m going to ignore the heated stuff and concentrate on this, because this is why (even as an ardent Remainer) soft Brexit is probably a bad idea. We end up tied into EU rules and payments but with none of our current benefits and lose all of our democratic input. As Whirlwind pointed out, there was a very remote possibility of making leave a success, but it would require unity, vision, drive, commitment and planning of a kind that we haven’t had since the Second World War (if ever). That is not going to happen, so the next best option is to just stay in. Max out the existing, unused, rights to help address the legitimate issues of the 52% and engage with the EU to make the improvements we all know are required.

Edit: this is also why a couple of my moderate Eurosceptic friends actually voted to remain; even before the vote they could see that soft Brexit was a miserable compromise and hard Brexit would be a disaster.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
You've arrived in the nick of time reds8n, because I was looking for a Mod.

Is it possible to have the Union Jack next to my name changed to a white flag to reflect the UK's new status?

At any rate, I suppose that buzzfeed link you posted is good news of a sort.

The bad news is that the EU knows that May has a spine made from rubber, not steel, so she'll likely concede further ground to them in return for zero...

There's never been a negotiation this bad since the Native Americans sold New York for a crust of bread and a half-empty bottle of rum...



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Steve steveson wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Whatever you may think of Brexit, the vote was the biggest in British political history for anything. It had a right to be respected and ver will be... :

Simple yes/no question for you. Are we leaving the EU? Give me a one word answer. No “not in any meaningful way” or “yes but” or any of that. Yes or no. Are we leaving the EU? That was the question at the referendum and those were the choices. There is no way anyone can say no to that. It may not be the way you wanted, but we are leaving the EU. If you wanted something in particular perhaps you should blaim the leave campaign for norelying on populism and vague pronouncements rather than setting out a clear vision.

I’m not expecting you to give a direct answer, but I hope you do. Yes or no to a simple question.

Don't think I'm only directing flak towards Remain.


I am blaming Leave. They were fething hopeless.

Juncker could have done a better job than Gove, Bojo, and Fox.

So is that a yes or a no? Are we leaving the EU?

 Jadenim wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Well, you may as well start a campaign to get us back into the EU, and whilst you're at it, you can put my name down on the paper.

Hell, If we're staying in the EU anyway, we may as well try and salvage our rebate and opt outs back and grab a chair at the commission table.

If we're lucky, the EU might be in a generous mood.

Feth me, a 40 billion down payment and 2 years of bollocks just to end up back where we started...

If I were to vent my true feelings about the wretched and treacherous snakes that pass as the Tory party, I'd be banned from dakka.

They have been nothing but a millstone around this country's neck for 200 years!

May they rot in hell.

I’m going to ignore the heated stuff and concentrate on this, because this is why (even as an ardent Remainer) soft Brexit is probably a bad idea. We end up tied into EU rules and payments but with none of our current benefits and lose all of our democratic input. As Whirlwind pointed out, there was a very remote possibility of making leave a success, but it would require unity, vision, drive, commitment and planning of a kind that we haven’t had since the Second World War (if ever). That is not going to happen, so the next best option is to just stay in. Max out the existing, unused, rights to help address the legitimate issues of the 52% and engage with the EU to make the improvements we all know are required.

Edit: this is also why a couple of my moderate Eurosceptic friends actually voted to remain; even before the vote they could see that soft Brexit was a miserable compromise and hard Brexit would be a disaster.

This is actually a very good point.

It's a disaster for both sides, and it takes a special kind of incompetence to unite both sides into thinking that this is a terrible deal, but that May's stock in trade.

It's bad for Brexit supporters like me.

But to Remain supporters like you, I would also argue that it is terrible for the reasons you outlined.

And here's another reason: those gutless fethers, the so called Brexiteers in the cabinet, will spend the next 10 years on the sidelines sniping away at this. Naturally of course, they won't have the backbone to do anything about it, but with Farage back at UKIP, and Bojo hiding behind his newspaper column,

it will be a drip drip drip of resentment and it will only stir up more trouble in the country.

Portillo was right: this is going to rumble on for years.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Steve steveson wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
You've arrived in the nick of time reds8n, because I was looking for a Mod.

Is it possible to have the Union Jack next to my name changed to a white flag to reflect the UK's new status?

At any rate, I suppose that buzzfeed link you posted is good news of a sort.

The bad news is that the EU knows that May has a spine made from rubber, not steel, so she'll likely concede further ground to them in return for zero...

There's never been a negotiation this bad since the Native Americans sold New York for a crust of bread and a half-empty bottle of rum...



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Steve steveson wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Whatever you may think of Brexit, the vote was the biggest in British political history for anything. It had a right to be respected and ver will be... :

Simple yes/no question for you. Are we leaving the EU? Give me a one word answer. No “not in any meaningful way” or “yes but” or any of that. Yes or no. Are we leaving the EU? That was the question at the referendum and those were the choices. There is no way anyone can say no to that. It may not be the way you wanted, but we are leaving the EU. If you wanted something in particular perhaps you should blaim the leave campaign for norelying on populism and vague pronouncements rather than setting out a clear vision.

I’m not expecting you to give a direct answer, but I hope you do. Yes or no to a simple question.

Don't think I'm only directing flak towards Remain.


I am blaming Leave. They were fething hopeless.

Juncker could have done a better job than Gove, Bojo, and Fox.

So is that a yes or a no? Are we leaving the EU?

I honestly don't know. With May in charge, I expect to see the March 2019 suspended indefinitely, and this time next year, I expect to be doing my shopping in Euros.

I looked at Barnier's twitter feed, and to my surprise, he wasn't at Checkers, because this is a deal that he could have written

Your not answering the question and you know it. It’s not a hyperthetical “will the government stop the process” or “will we have a never ending series of interim arrangements”. Not “do you think the government will follow through?”

It is, are we, today, as it stands, leaving the EU? Yes or no? As your statements about people being “cheated” and “not following the will of the people” are in relation to statements about how we are leaving the EU. Unless you believe that, as it stands today, we are no longer leaving the EU? In which case I would be interested to know what facts you have to back this up. Facts, not belief or opinion on what the government or the EU might or might not do.

GoatboyBeta wrote:
So that's it? After all the posturing and strutting about I was expecting some kind of middle aged public school boy battle royale. But they all just meekly rolled over for the weekend? No doubt the spineless morons will be back to sniping at each other within the week, but what am I going to do with all this popcorn?

Send it to the Kremlin. They are running out again.

Actually assuming that the Tories are in charge for full term, then a soft brexit leaving us following EU laws and legislation is fine by me as it may reign in there most sociopathic tendencies.

It would be great if they have to implement all the social charter stuff they spent most of 80's worming there way out of.

Ultimately I would rather take my chances with faceless EU beaurcrats than the assorted toffs,spivs and sociopaths that make up the Tory Party.

Is May’s plan basically efta? I haven’t had a chance to read it.