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Bomb squad reportly onnroute to a London night spot.

Potential 3 dead. Knife wounds to throat reported by bystanders.
Unconfirmed reports of gunfire Southwark street.

Police boats, helo and every single thing they got currently being deployed right now.

Just come back from being in Leicester Square, no idea anything was going on until I looked at the news on the train. Very mixed details at the monent, but the stepping down of the risk of terror attack and pulling soldiers off the street seems badly timed, even if it wouldn't have made much difference.

 Ketara wrote:

So......you're quibbling he said 'every month' instead of 'every two months?

I thought they were talking about the UK where it has actually been monthly for three months now, but has obviously been pretty rare prior to that. I just think we should be careful of implying this type of atrocity is very frequent when we're talking about 11 incidents over two years across an area the size of Europe. It's far too frequent, obviously, because once is, but it still shouldn't be allowed to impact daily life.

I should concede that I'm very sadly desensitised to it because of working in certain parts of the world, though.

That seems less and less like an overreaction now.

Stay clear or borborugh market

Scotland yard confirmed police responding to something.

Armed police have fired shots. Hopefully only them.

There's also something happening in Vauxhall area but BBC not explicitly connecting it to the other two, yet.

Good grief.

This is a combined attack.

3 targets in under a hour.
Jesus. What kind of donkey-caves live in our country.

There spreading forces. Making it so Police assets are having to divide across the city.

If it turns out any of them were on a watch list somebody needs sacked.

You know. Watch lists should maybe be a internment camp..

They don,t work.
Back to wartime answers. So be it.

 jhe90 wrote:
You know. Watch lists should maybe be a internment camp..

They don,t work.
Back to wartime answers. So be it.

This is what we need but no one will do it.

I favour bringing back the death penalty for violent terror offences. If captured alive, these people don't deserve to live. Anders Breivik too.

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
You know. Watch lists should maybe be a internment camp..

They don,t work.
Back to wartime answers. So be it.

This is what we need but no one will do it.

Because locking people up indefinitely based on vague suspicion is a terrible idea.

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
You know. Watch lists should maybe be a internment camp..

They don,t work.
Back to wartime answers. So be it.

This is what we need but no one will do it.

Given we might as well be in a state of war. Round them all up now.
Troops of needed and a bonus if you can get them all in jail inside 48 hours.

They know how to kick in doors, go at it.

Agreed.
Personly the old fashioned head on a spike over the tower might send a message.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ketara wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
You know. Watch lists should maybe be a internment camp..

They don,t work.
Back to wartime answers. So be it.

This is what we need but no one will do it.

Because locking people up indefinitely based on vague suspicion is a terrible idea.

You do not end on watch lists unless your a serious threat.

 Ketara wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
You know. Watch lists should maybe be a internment camp..

They don,t work.
Back to wartime answers. So be it.

This is what we need but no one will do it.

Because locking people up indefinitely based on vague suspicion is a terrible idea.

As opposed to looking that them then being shocked when they end up killing people?

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
You know. Watch lists should maybe be a internment camp..

They don,t work.
Back to wartime answers. So be it.

This is what we need but no one will do it.

Because locking people up indefinitely based on vague suspicion is a terrible idea.

As opposed to looking that them then being shocked when they end up killing people?

If they where on lists they failed badly.
4 or so individual attacks 1 , 3 tonight.

Maybe 25+ killed.

They sure are working.

jhe90 wrote:

You do not end on watch lists unless your a serious threat.

There are tens of thousands of people on the watch lists. You fancy setting up camps like the Americans did to people of Japanese descent?

Future War Cultist wrote:

As opposed to looking that them then being shocked when they end up killing people?

Er, yes? Flipping the coin of harm to the public, I'd rather a few people got taken out by terrorists on a yearly basis then we:-

a) allowed them to dictate the kind of country we become,
b) trample all over the human rights of every citizen, and
c) set up an authoritarian government with the unquestionable power to detain and imprison large numbers of people at will.

Mainly because that sort of setup is basically guaranteed to end up as a facist regime within a decade, and those tend to kill a lot more people.

But it's not a few people is it? At this stage it's hundreds.

Because we have a thousand years of justice in this country based upon the principle that thought is not a crime.

Those on the watch lists may have said some very nasty things, but they have not committed any crime and I will oppose anyone who tries to start imprisoning people on what they might do, not what they have done. Down that road lies the death of freedom.

Unfortunately the price of freedom is that we have to endure this madness on occasion. But we endure, as we always have and always shall.

Written from my Spitalfields hotel room, not the way I expected our weekend in the capital to end...

Vauxhall incident appears to be a false alarm/unrelated. Also, the van from London Bridge seems to have ended up at Borough Market rather than them being separate incidents.

So, small positive news in that it seems to have been more of a Westminster style, stupid radicalised loner/isolated group that network-based effort. Small mercies.

Just read an eyewitness report saying that three men were working cohesively as group to stab people in Borough. Another saw three men jump out the back of the lorry at London Bridge. So a group.

In other words, there's likely a group of them in hoods stabbing a handful of people, before hiding the knives, sprinting to merge back in with the crowds, and then finding a new spot. I saw footage earlier of the police making a large number of people get on the ground. They're probably desperately searching for them, but if they keep moving and keep each incident short, they'll be hard to pinpoint. The police are likely flooding every street in that area to try and catch them them through sheer manpower. All they need is one officer within earshot when the next bout starts and they can grab 'em.

Accidental post: thought I was editing but was quoting. Sorry!

 Jadenim wrote:
Because we have a thousand years of justice in this country based upon the principle that thought is not a crime.

Those on the watch lists may have said some very nasty things, but they have not committed any crime and I will oppose anyone who tries to start imprisoning people on what they might do, not what they have done. Down that road lies the death of freedom.

Unfortunately the price of freedom is that we have to endure this madness on occasion. But we endure, as we always have and always shall.

Written from my Spitalfields hotel room, not the way I expected our weekend in the capital to end...

Yet we have to put up with this ..
Why. Why the hell should we watch that if they were on a watch list that failed again.

That system needs a total overhaul. And if we have to. Intern the worst of them. Do it.
There lives and freedoms are second to law abiding citizens we should defend.

If you comit acts of terror your life is forfeit.
You have no life. No freedom. No parole. That's it.

 jhe90 wrote:


Yet we have to put up with this ..
Why. Why the hell should we watch that if they were on a watch list that failed again.

That system needs a total overhaul. And if we have to. Intern the worst of them. Do it.
There lives and freedoms are second to law abiding citizens we should defend.

If you comit acts of terror your life is forfeit.
You have no life. No freedom. No parole. That's it.

Ineffective watchlists are inexcusable. No doubts there. The cops need the human resources to investigate and monitor properly.

We can't just go locking suspects up, though, lest we undermine our entire justice system, which is one of the things we want to defend, surely?

Well something's gotta give.

nfe wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:


Yet we have to put up with this ..
Why. Why the hell should we watch that if they were on a watch list that failed again.

That system needs a total overhaul. And if we have to. Intern the worst of them. Do it.
There lives and freedoms are second to law abiding citizens we should defend.

If you comit acts of terror your life is forfeit.
You have no life. No freedom. No parole. That's it.

Ineffective watchlists are inexcusable. No doubts there. The cops need the human resources to investigate and monitor properly.

We can't just go locking suspects up, though, lest we undermine our entire justice system, which is one of the things we want to defend, surely?

True. But if the watch lists keep failing. What else do we have left?
We keep being told the same thing. The system needs to change or more people lose loved ones, family, more vigils and candles.

Yes, they need dedicated, serious resources to enforce the watch system, and it needs to air tight.
If you are caught in planning of or exacuting of terror though the punishment needs to be as air tight and make it clear to any prospective maybe thinking of that path that it just not is worth it.

Ooc also may I say welcome to dakka, I'm sorry your first few posts had to be on such a sad topic.

 jhe90 wrote:

True. But if the watch lists keep failing. What else do we have left?

Get better at it. That's the only option, sadly.

 jhe90 wrote:
If you are caught in planning of or exacuting of terror though the punishment needs to be as air tight and make it clear to any prospective maybe thinking of that path that it just not is worth it.

I'm not sure there's a punishment that can actually deter people that are happy to die? We need successful prevention because no deterrent is going to cut it. That said, the prevention methods can't undermine the democracy we're seeking to defend. There are no remotely easy answers.

 jhe90 wrote:
You know. Watch lists should maybe be a internment camp..

They don,t work.
Back to wartime answers. So be it.

I'll let Captain Sulu explain this one for me.




Not that I imagine it'll be listened to. It might be heard, but it won't be listened to.

This is a terrible incident, it's a tragedy and there's almost certainly more coming as every lunatic with a deathwish sees this period as their chance to get into the history books.

I just hope the British public as a whole are better than this and can see through the, no doubt, political theatre that UKIP and the BNP will make of this in the coming days.


EDIT: As for watchlists, the reasons for Watch Lists are simple. As a civilised society, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland cares a great deal about the due process of law and the idea of 'innocence until proven guilty.' And I, personally, am proud of this idea. If a potential and alleged terrorist is on a watch list, that means they have not committed a crime where the available and admissible burden of proof is of sufficient quantity and quality to ensure a successful prosecution. This is how a civilised society works and I am glad to live in a civilised society. When we start doing something different from this, like internment camps discussed above. That's simply not a civilised society anymore.

 jhe90 wrote:

Ooc also may I say welcome to dakka, I'm sorry your first few posts had to be on such a sad topic.

Thanks. Given that I'm only just trying to get back into the hobby after a two decade absence I don't have much to contribute elsewhere yet, so sadly I find all my first posts are miserable!

Compel wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
You know. Watch lists should maybe be a internment camp..

They don,t work.
Back to wartime answers. So be it.

I'll let Captain Sulu explain this one for me.




Not that I imagine it'll be listened to. It might be heard, but it won't be listened to.

This is a terrible incident, it's a tragedy and there's almost certainly more coming as every lunatic with a deathwish sees this period as their chance to get into the history books.

I just hope the British public as a whole are better than this and can see through the, no doubt, political theatre that UKIP and the BNP will make of this in the coming days.


EDIT: As for watchlists, the reasons for Watch Lists are simple. As a civilised society, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland cares a great deal about the due process of law and the idea of 'innocence until proven guilty.' And I, personally, am proud of this idea. If a potential and alleged terrorist is on a watch list, that means they have not committed a crime where the available and admissible burden of proof is of sufficient quantity and quality to ensure a successful prosecution. This is how a civilised society works and I am glad to live in a civilised society. When we start doing something different from this, like internment camps discussed above. That's simply not a civilised society anymore.

nfe wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

Ooc also may I say welcome to dakka, I'm sorry your first few posts had to be on such a sad topic.

Thanks. Given that I'm only just trying to get back into the hobby after a two decade absence I don't have much to contribute elsewhere yet, so sadly I find all my first posts are miserable!

While it is not a nice idea, and the idea has roots in Anglo Boer war.
If the list system keeps failing we may have less and less options.

Best would be yes to see a air tight terror watch list.
But if that's leaking, and we run out of options. We don,t have much choices left but to use the dark ideas of past.

And yeah. On a happier note,
Good luck starting back up. May your hobby desk have many half finished projects

We're now seriously touting concentration camps (the Boer War kind, not the euphemistic Nazi ones) as a solution to terrorism. Let that sink in for a bit. You should be ashamed of yourselves.