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 Traditio wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I'm still bitter that cover adds to armour saves rather than being a modifier on To-Hit rolls.

Well, if it's any consolation:

There are going to be BS modifiers (e.g., smoke launchers).

I know.

That's probably why they did it, otherwise it would be pretty easy to make it impossible to shoot at vehicles.
Night Fighting gives Shrouded -1 to To Hit rolls.
Smoke Launchers -1 to To Hit rolls.
Ruin Cover -2 to To Hit rolls.

Ladies and gentlemen, your 3+ to hit is now a 7+ on a d6, best of luck.

I believe the reason they did it aside from that.. Is that you KNOW it's there and as a result aren't penalized to hit, but you are still firing through the terrain itself to get to the vehicle thus weakening the actual shots that hit it.

So when do we see smoke grenades to prevent Overwatch and who will get them?

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
So when do we see smoke grenades to prevent Overwatch and who will get them?

I feel as though Harlequins, Ravenguard and Alpha Legion should all get those smoke bombs.

Probably the Night Lords too.

Am I totally wrong on this?

Given that you can flee out of combat, and can fire Pistols in combat, I have my money on them removing overwatch from the game. We'll hopefully find out tomorrow when they reveal more about the combat phase!

 rollawaythestone wrote:
Given that you can flee out of combat, and can fire Pistols in combat, I have my money on them removing overwatch from the game. We'll hopefully find out tomorrow when they reveal more about the combat phase!

I'm hoping that they remove overwatch from the game entirely.

 Traditio wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
So when do we see smoke grenades to prevent Overwatch and who will get them?

I feel as though Harlequins, Ravenguard and Alpha Legion should all get those smoke bombs.

Probably the Night Lords too.

Am I totally wrong on this?

Totally wrong is only possible when facts exist, since they don't...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Traditio wrote:

 rollawaythestone wrote:
Given that you can flee out of combat, and can fire Pistols in combat, I have my money on them removing overwatch from the game. We'll hopefully find out tomorrow when they reveal more about the combat phase!

I'm hoping that they remove overwatch from the game entirely.

Maybe, if they re-introduce consolidating from successful combats like they had in 5th ed Overwatch could remain a feature.

 Traditio wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
Grimgold:

Unrelated:

How do you feel about all armies essentially gaining gauss?

Remember that lasguns can wound Riptides. How much does that actually help you?

Gauss is only truly dangerous to vehicles with significant armor. Ie, vehicles no one uses anymore. Gauss my rhinos all you want.

Once my rhinos have 6-9 wounds each and either 3+ or 4+ armor saves, I am hoping that people try to kill them with lasguns.

If Vehicles have Armor Saves, I don't see Rhino's having 3+ Armor Saves.

Probably something like 7 Toughness, 5+ Armor Saves, and maybe 8 wounds.

Talamare wrote:If Vehicles have Armor Saves, I don't see Rhino's having 3+ Armor Saves.

Probably something like 7 Toughness, 5+ Armor Saves, and maybe 8 wounds.

We already have a point of comparison.

Dreadnoughts are going to be T7, 3+ armor save, 8 wounds.

Rhinos aren't that much weaker than dreadnoughts. Worse case scenario should be T6, 4+ armor and 6 wounds.

This all depends on other ballistic weapon types work. We only know pistol, assault weapons might allow you to move and shoot at a modified to hit roll. Interesting and a fall back option means not using cc as a safe zone when your otherwise surrounded. This is good

I am shocked that it ads to a save rather than reduces to hit. But I am starting to see that being a problem for ballistic skill mod spam. That could essentially bringing back snap shots without the rule. Plus buffing armor makes more sense.

Lastly some units might have a 2d6 rule if the armour is high enough like termies or tanks. That would kind of level out MC,vehicles and termies/other high armour infantry.

Very interesting stuff.

I said it before on the facebook thing. LOVE the pistol idea. HATE the heavy weapon idea. Over course I hated snap fire too, as I'd rather heavy weapons be move OR fire. And there's no good reason for it not to be.

 Traditio wrote:

Talamare wrote:If Vehicles have Armor Saves, I don't see Rhino's having 3+ Armor Saves.

Probably something like 7 Toughness, 5+ Armor Saves, and maybe 8 wounds.

We already have a point of comparison.

Dreadnoughts are going to be T7, 3+ armor save, 8 wounds.

Rhinos aren't that much weaker than dreadnoughts. Worse case scenario should be T6, 4+ armor and 6 wounds.

I think your suggestion made it easier to kill than my suggestion. XD

+4 Armor with 6 wounds is 12 EHP with T6
+5 Armor with 8 wounds is 12 EHP with T7...

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
I said it before on the facebook thing. LOVE the pistol idea. HATE the heavy weapon idea. Over course I hated snap fire too, as I'd rather heavy weapons be move OR fire. And there's no good reason for it not to be.

Because the most irritating heavy weapons in 7th ed are on fast moving relentless platforms anyway.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
You mean more common then the literal like, two weapons profiles we've seen?

Having more than 2 rend weapons in the entire game is a pretty safe bet, my friend.

Well we have seen three profiles so far. No rend on flamers or bolt guns - which suggests most infantry weapons won't have them (or at least no more than -1). I am sure special weapons like plasma and grav may have some - but will they have enough?
Lascannons only have -3. Okay if your vehicles are going to have a 3+ save with little chance to make it larger then that's not too bad - but if its very easy to get 2+ suddenly that seems a bit weak.

As has been said in Age of Sigmar its relatively rare to get more than a 4+ save base.

I don't want a situation where small arms are pointless. The current system where anything that isn't S6 and preferably AP2 or 3 is sneered at isn't great.

 Traditio wrote:

Talamare wrote:If Vehicles have Armor Saves, I don't see Rhino's having 3+ Armor Saves.

Probably something like 7 Toughness, 5+ Armor Saves, and maybe 8 wounds.

We already have a point of comparison.

Dreadnoughts are going to be T7, 3+ armor save, 8 wounds.

Rhinos aren't that much weaker than dreadnoughts. Worse case scenario should be T6, 4+ armor and 6 wounds.

3HP should be 8W like the dread example. The T and sv values are a bit uncertain.

I think the changes would be:

AV10-11 ---> T6, 4+ sv
AV12-13 ---> T7, 3+ sv
AV14 ----> T8, 2+ sv

2HP ---> 6W
3HP ---> 8W
4HP ---> 10 W
5HP ---> 12W
6HP ---> 14W

I think AV10-10-10 with 3HP like ork trukks or dark eldar raider will become T6, 8W and 4+ sv. But rhinos are actually AV11 so I guess they will have a little benefit like a 3+ save. T7 would probably be too much. Or maybe they get a 4+ sv and the AV10-10-10 a 5+ one.

 Blackie wrote:
Values and Quotes

I think we should consider the potential that this kinda of open the door for different vehicle types.

Imperial Guard have hardy high armoured vehicle which might be represented by better Saves, but lower Toughness. While Orkz have huge amount of wounds on their vehicles, but terrible saves. Finally Tau has well engineered vehicles, but poorer material giving them high toughness and lower wounds...

Point is, 3 Hull might not always translate into 8 wounds.
AV Value might not translate into specific toughness values.

 Talamare wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Values and Quotes

I think we should consider the potential that this kinda of open the door for different vehicle types.

Imperial Guard have hardy high armoured vehicle which might be represented by better Saves, but lower Toughness. While Orkz have huge amount of wounds on their vehicles, but terrible saves. Finally Tau has well engineered vehicles, but poorer material giving them high toughness and lower saves...

Point is, 3 Hull might not always translate into 8 wounds.
AV Value might not translate into specific toughness values.

likewise you might also start to see differances in between when units lose effectiveness for multiple wounds Orc vehicles with their ramshackle nature might start to lose effectiveness very quick, Imperial guard might have a nice gradual curve, and space marine units based off the rhino chassis, which is suppsoed to bewell known for it's reliability and over all durability may not degrade much as all.

See the variety you can get from using wounds and toughness? It's awesome!

I just hope that they free up units to target different enemies. Make different weapon combos and sponsons more useable.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
See the variety you can get from using wounds and toughness? It's awesome!

I just hope that they free up units to target different enemies. Make different weapon combos and sponsons more useable.

yeah it'd be nice if "lascannon, and bolter sponsons" was a viable and useful predator config.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
See the variety you can get from using wounds and toughness? It's awesome!

I just hope that they free up units to target different enemies. Make different weapon combos and sponsons more useable.

yeah it'd be nice if "lascannon, and bolter sponsons" was a viable and useful predator config.

Yeah it would be very nice. And realistic! Attack vehicles should have the tools for every job besides a few highly specialized ones. Plus, forcing everyone to shoot at one target is an abstraction too far in my opinion, and I'm one who feels that abstraction is required.

I would love to have a Vanquisher with lascannon and anti infantry sponsons. It just feels right. Having a squad or vehicle all carrying one type of weapon never felt right to me. Now we could have a sniper, grenadier etc, like real life units.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
See the variety you can get from using wounds and toughness? It's awesome!

I just hope that they free up units to target different enemies. Make different weapon combos and sponsons more useable.

yeah it'd be nice if "lascannon, and bolter sponsons" was a viable and useful predator config.

Until we see point costs we don't know. I for one am hoping points costs are being completely re-written.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I'm still bitter that cover adds to armour saves rather than being a modifier on To-Hit rolls.

Modifiers on to hit rolls did not end well in 2nd.

Martel732 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I'm still bitter that cover adds to armour saves rather than being a modifier on To-Hit rolls.

Modifiers on to hit rolls did not end well in 2nd.

How do you figure that? Shooting still ruled the roost.

Any word on how ordnance will work? I just want to know if my Wyverns, Manticore, and Basilisk will still be fun to play.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I'm still bitter that cover adds to armour saves rather than being a modifier on To-Hit rolls.

Modifiers on to hit rolls did not end well in 2nd.

How do you figure that? Shooting still ruled the roost.

Because only two lists could handle 100 8pt hormagaunts moving fast through cover. Pray to your emprah as your 30 pt marines hit on 5's. Game over man, game over.

So do I have this right?
Terminators have a 2+ save. They get in to cover, and let's say it adds 3 to the save, so that brings them down to a -1 save. They would still be rolling 2+ to save
They are then shot at with a weapon that is -2 to save modifier, so then then are back to a 1 to save, so they will still get 2+ yeah?

 Rippy wrote:
So do I have this right?
Terminators have a 2+ save. They get in to cover, and let's say it adds 3 to the save, so that brings them down to a -1 save. They would still be rolling 2+ to save
They are then shot at with a weapon that is -2 to save modifier, so then then are back to a 1 to save, so they will still get 2+ yeah?

We don't really know how it stacks yet...

but honestly? probably

 Rippy wrote:
So do I have this right?
Terminators have a 2+ save. They get in to cover, and let's say it adds 3 to the save, so that brings them down to a -1 save. They would still be rolling 2+ to save
They are then shot at with a weapon that is -2 to save modifier, so then then are back to a 1 to save, so they will still get 2+ yeah?

Sounds about right. That's how it used to work in WHFB.

Martel732 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I'm still bitter that cover adds to armour saves rather than being a modifier on To-Hit rolls.

Modifiers on to hit rolls did not end well in 2nd.

How do you figure that? Shooting still ruled the roost.

Because only two lists could handle 100 8pt hormagaunts moving fast through cover. Pray to your emprah as your 30 pt marines hit on 5's. Game over man, game over.

I have a Tyrannid army, you just described my wet dream.

Well i already played. 2nd. I don't need to again. Tyranids should be formidable, be they don't need an autowin button