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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
So, stuff that Sisters don't use a lot (we have twinlinked on immolators only and combi on sisters superior only) get a massive buff, and while the melta gets a nice buff on monstrous creature (somehow balanced by apparently better Toughness and more wounds), it also gets a nerf on IC (not wounding any IC with T5 or more on 2+ anymore), and a big nerf against vehicles (no more one shot, huge toughness, will requires tons of shot to blow anything now!)
Vehicles are going to be mighty annoying now.

My hammerheads are jumping in excitement in their closet with all of this news
Tanks snipping tanks and giants monsters across the field, oh, it will be GLORIOUS!

shinr wrote:
What are the chances that not all of the weapons with the twin-linked rule in 7th will get double shots in 8th and instead retain the "to-be-renamed re-roll missed shots" rule?

I would assume 0 chance if the model has a twin linked weapon since they said that rule is gone? I think it's safe to assume if the weapon looks twin linked then it will be.

Special rules that give twin linked may simply be a reroll or removed tho.

This makes so many units way better at shooting, let's hope they increase the cost.

But that's the thing - yes you had the scattering issue but once you hit you knew that whatever was under that pie was usually crisply toasted. It's too many rolls for me to be comfortable with:

- Roll # of shots,
- Roll to hit,
- Roll to wound;
- Apply saves
- Roll # of wounds for each hit,

And you can never kill more models than the number of hits you rolled.

 Crimson wrote:

torblind wrote:
Are those 2 wounds on 2 models each or 4 wounds total against the unit?

Multi-wounds won't spill over. They have said this on FB several times.

Haven't seen anything official say that myself yet. Everything seems like it should work that way though. Gives weapons the niche protection they keep talking about. Got a link?

Damage splits in Age of Sigmar. Is a straitforward mechanic that makes things faster, but personally, I prefer the system of 40k.

If you have damage spliting in a unit, then the anti-infantry and anti-tank weapons difference is inexistant. If my Lasscanon can kill 6 guards rolling a 6 on damage, why I bother with a flamethrower?



And to people asking for proofs:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/26/warhammer-40000-weaponsgw-homepage-post-4/

Damage is a big change. This stats effectively lets a single hit deliver multiple wounds to one model. So, as we can see, the bolter does a single wound per hit, and so is optimised for shooting models that have a single wound themselves, whereas the lascannon, one of the most powerful man-portable weapons in the game, kicks out D6 damage, allowing it to blast chunks off large vehicles and monsters and kill light vehicles and characters in a single hit. Against something like Guardsmen or Orks though, this formidable damage output will be wasted.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
So, stuff that Sisters don't use a lot (we have twinlinked on immolators only and combi on sisters superior only) get a massive buff, and while the melta gets a nice buff on monstrous creature (somehow balanced by apparently better Toughness and more wounds), it also gets a nerf on IC (not wounding any IC with T5 or more on 2+ anymore), and a big nerf against vehicles (no more one shot, huge toughness, will requires tons of shot to blow anything now!)
Vehicles are going to be mighty annoying now.

Yea the Morka/Gorka/nauts are a rough target for meltas now.

7.5 shots in 7th to strip it with a good chance to just blow the whole damn thing much sooner than that.

Now it's 12 shots!

Imagine Tau crisis suits with one twin-link flamer and one regular one. Muahah.

For all those loving the flamethrower buffs to all factions.

@Sydrian - "Damage is a big change. This stats effectively lets a single hit deliver multiple wounds to one model."

First post about Weapons: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/26/warhammer-40000-weaponsgw-homepage-post-4/

Sydrian wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

torblind wrote:
Are those 2 wounds on 2 models each or 4 wounds total against the unit?

Multi-wounds won't spill over. They have said this on FB several times.

Haven't seen anything official say that myself yet. Everything seems like it should work that way though. Gives weapons the niche protection they keep talking about. Got a link?

It was the very first one on weapons...

Damage is a big change. This stats effectively lets a single hit deliver multiple wounds to one model. So, as we can see, the bolter does a single wound per hit, and so is optimised for shooting models that have a single wound themselves, whereas the lascannon, one of the most powerful man-portable weapons in the game, kicks out D6 damage, allowing it to blast chunks off large vehicles and monsters and kill light vehicles and characters in a single hit. Against something like Guardsmen or Orks though, this formidable damage output will be wasted.

For those worrying about melta, we have no idea what the melta rule does. Or if it has stayed the same. The premier anti-tank weapon might work differently now. I would like to see them get a damage bonus at half their range instead of simply a bonus to penetration. This makes the risk of bringing them so close worth it.

 Gamgee wrote:
For those worrying about melta, we have no idea what the melta rule does. Or if it has stayed the same. The premier anti-tank weapon might work differently now.

We actually do know it now

Also, from FB:

Q: I am a bit confused on the big guns. Do multiple wounds spill over to other troopers? If not a battlecannons looks underwhelming due to rng?
I have to look at the point cost of a leman russ and its option to have a clear picture i think.

A: No, they don't spill over. If Trooper Jenkins takes 6 wounds, he dies real bad. He doesn't die so hard that 5 of his mates die from sympathy pains...

Eyjio wrote:
Explosives - kinda hate it, to be honest. Rolling for random shots, then to hit is worse IMO than rolling once to hit then doing random hits from that. This just "feels" less like an explosive to me I guess. It's not a huge deal breaker, but it's a little saddening. That said, battle cannons now have a quite insane potential 18 wound output, though the average is 3.5 total wounds, over 2 models assuming 4+ to hit. It's actually kinda bad against infantry which is weird.

It might feel better but actually you should prefer first shots, then to hit. Average is same but it averages out much better. There's lot less extreme results.

Battle cannon will be pretty lousy against infantry though. Ah well. Stats for weapons were pretty much exactly as expected except for combi weapon change.

Eyjio wrote:
I dunno, the battle cannon just seems bad. The godhammer lascannons are now actually better, on average, if leman russes still hit on 4+ (BS3).

There are still a lot of unknowns. We don't know if POTMS will let godhammers fire one weapon without a minus for moving. Will the LRBT be able to move and shoot at full BS?

I ran the numbers using the full range of weapons for the LRBT. A single weapon by itself does not give a good measuring stick. We should compare it to other tools. Until we learn more weapon status, were limited in the numbers we can run.
As Breng77 suggested, keeping the HB on the LRBT along with 2 HB sponsons means the LRBT kills ~2.47s MEQ.
Without POTMS, the godhammer kills ~2.388. With POTMS, the godhammer kills ~2.62
10 marines with 1 HB and 1 Flamer 20" away will kill ~1.39 MEQ
Those same marines 10" away will kill ~2.86 MEQ

I look at that and I'm not depressed. They are all in the same rough ball park.
The LRBT is tougher than the marines and can outshoot them at long range. Up close the marines are more deadly (like dropping from a pod), but are more fragile.
The LRBT can also use it's cannon against vehicles or MCs, where the marines are not nearly as effective vs vehicles, so the LRBT has some dual-purpose there. The marines can build in dual-purpose by grabbing a melta-gun instead of a flamer, and a ML instead of a HB -- but they lose anti-infantry power. They can also grab a combi-weapon with their sergeant for an extra flamer/melta shot.

The LR is shoots better, likely has better armor, and is a transport -- but we can bet it will be more expensive. It also should be shooting those LCs at vehicles. Using them against MEQ is a bad choice.
Ovearll -- I would just be happy if LRs were decent again. I've not seen people field them competitively in years. They are one of the iconic points of the 40k universe, and it would be great to see them in play.

I hate to be the glass half empty guy, but when the firepower of your model suddenly nearly doubles there are 3 possibilities:

A) It's points go way up, you get to use it less.
B) It is totally broken, everyone hates you, it ruins games.
C) There is some mechanic that cancels out the effectiveness of your shooting and you're rolling more dice for nothing.

 Gamgee wrote:
For those worrying about melta, we have no idea what the melta rule does. Or if it has stayed the same. The premier anti-tank weapon might work differently now. I would like to see them get a damage bonus at half their range instead of simply a bonus to penetration. This makes the risk of bringing them so close worth it.

Well meltagun didnt have the melta rule, the rule is probably gone. It has a typed out ordinance like rule instead

I didn't even see that thanks for pointing it out. Hmm... I'm not sure if I want to take melta-guns anymore or take broad-side teams with heavy rail rifles (as I should as Tau).

It all depends on our weapons final balancing. Then again cheap suicide suits are cheap and they just got a 50% firepower output.

Hmmm... it all depends. I think either could be useful now.

 Gamgee wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
This is a huge boost for Tau XV-8 let me tell you. Going to be seeing twin-linked dual weapons. So that would bring their burst cannon capability of a single XV-8 up to 16.

If they don't let us twin-link both weapons then it's a cost saver and opens up the possibility of bringing other things with the spare points or upgrading your suits with upgrades now instead of taking them dirt cheap.

We can't anyway, as each takes 2 hardpoints. However, 1 TL + 1 normal will be the new hot (unless some of the support systems are so awesome we cannot leave them behind)

So a 50% fire output increase. This is fantastic. This more than makes up for the loss of AP 2 to AP 3 on human targets with burst cannons. GW you clever bastards I need to go and buy more kits now lol for twin-linking purposes.

Edit
This means Broadsides railguns are two shots now. I don't think this makes them any more viable truth be told. Their twin-linked high yield missile pods on the other hand are definitely going to be a competitive choice to the Riptide.

You have no idea what the feth a rail gun does. HYMP are certainly only gonna do 1 damage -1 save, the rail weapons I would guess will pump out a minimum of d6 damage with -4 to your save. I would argue plasma rail rifle broadsides will be the new hot sauce if I were to guess.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:
So the HB profile, is it Heavy 6 because it's twin? Or is that it's new base profile?

Little confused there.

Facebook confirms that the profile listed is for the twin linked heavy bolter, so a standard heavy bolter will only have three shots.

Didn't GW say something that HB would be good? It's fairly similar to previous and was already so cheap not much room for cheaper version so maybe other heavy weapons up the price if HB's are to become popular again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Freddy Kruger wrote:
I like how everyone is saying the good old Russ tank got terrible with the new random hits with it's battle cannon.
I'm sure that it used to be ordinance. It's now just a heavy weapon on the new article (assuming the battle cannon wasn't heavy before). That means no rule for scatter of its not ordinance? I think the Russ just became more reliable and tougher...

No scatter because it has to hit on 4+ for each shot...

Battle cannon kills in average about 1 tactical marine now.

And duel between 2 russes will be slow watch. In average takes tad over 5 turns for battle cannon to take out russ. Not much hope of recreating gaunt's ghost tank battles.

tneva82 wrote:

Eyjio wrote:
Explosives - kinda hate it, to be honest. Rolling for random shots, then to hit is worse IMO than rolling once to hit then doing random hits from that. This just "feels" less like an explosive to me I guess. It's not a huge deal breaker, but it's a little saddening. That said, battle cannons now have a quite insane potential 18 wound output, though the average is 3.5 total wounds, over 2 models assuming 4+ to hit. It's actually kinda bad against infantry which is weird.

It might feel better but actually you should prefer first shots, then to hit. Average is same but it averages out much better. There's lot less extreme results.

Battle cannon will be pretty lousy against infantry though. Ah well. Stats for weapons were pretty much exactly as expected except for combi weapon change.

Thankfully I still have a couple of DA Vets to convert... and a few combis left lying about...

 Freddy Kruger wrote:
People here need to remember 1 thing: everyone gets split fire.

so far its been on a model by model basis.... Its possible the guns may be able to split from the main cannon, but its just as likely not.

I was taking a guess at the railweapons. I do know nothing. For all I know they could troll us and make hem do no damage but a troll weapons choice.

I get an idea for what a Lascannon can do though and the Railgun on the Hammerhead is stronger. I'm expecting STR 10 -4 d6 wounds. So a heavy rail rifle would be less than that. It can't be a single damage that would be dumb.

As for the twin-linked HYMP yeah of course only one damage. Still if they keep four shots they went from 4 to 8 means a squad puts out 24. However that seems insane so I expect the amount of shots fired to be nerfed in accordance.

Daedalus81 wrote:

Well, you're looking at toughness only. Plenty of high wound counts so far. Reinventing the toughness for common stuff against common weapons would have been more work for little gain.

Considering the "everything hurts everything" mentality, I doubt that higher T would really mean much in this system. While wound counts most certainly helps, it does feel that the only real stat that isn't capped is wounds.

 Gamgee wrote:
I didn't even see that thanks for pointing it out. Hmm... I'm not sure if I want to take melta-guns anymore or take broad-side teams with heavy rail rifles (as I should as Tau).

It all depends on our weapons final balancing. Then again cheap suicide suits are cheap and they just got a 50% firepower output.

Hmmm... it all depends. I think either could be useful now.

Well 3 melta hits on a dreadnought would wound twice, each inflicting 4.5 wounds, and thus bringing it down. It's not terribly worse compared to 7th

tneva82 wrote:

And duel between 2 russes will be slow watch. In average takes tad over 5 turns for battle cannon to take out russ. Not much hope of recreating gaunt's ghost tank battles.

Given that the same battle would take 6's to glance before, that actually seems to be an improvement.

Plus degrading capabilities mean whoever gets the lead is at an advantage, which is more interesting than now.

The vanquisher (Long barrel one) may be better.

 Gamgee wrote:
I was taking a guess at the railweapons. I do know nothing. For all I know they could troll us and make hem do no damage but a troll weapons choice.

I get an idea for what a Lascannon can do though and the Railgun on the Hammerhead is stronger. I'm expecting STR 10 -4 d6 wounds. So a heavy rail rifle would be less than that. It can't be a single damage that would be dumb.

As for the twin-linked HYMP yeah of course only one damage. Still if they keep four shots they went from 4 to 8 means a squad puts out 24. However that seems insane so I expect the amount of shots fired to be nerfed in accordance.

I would wager heavy rail rifles are the same as the canon but s8 not s10.

As for HYMP, they shoot with a higher maximum but now flack and carapace armor get a save. You also can pack twice the fire power on drones and fire warriors, anti tank you will be hurting though so thats why I'd take the plasma heavy railrifle broadsides, but of course we need to see points etc. However it's not hard to induce from what we have so far that this edition wants you to use the right weapon for the job, so odds are HYMP are not going to kill tanks and monsters better then their alternative loadouts.

Yeah I was already considering broadsides with HHR the second I seen this. It all comes down to how they balance it. It's funny I already have a team of three HHR's with plasma-rifles. Time to dust them off. I really enjoy how the models look.

 Gamgee wrote:
Imagine Tau crisis suits with one twin-link flamer and one regular one. Muahah.

For all those loving the flamethrower buffs to all factions.

Well, I'm liking my Twin-Linked Fusion + Single Flamer loadout just fine right now. Roll 3 of those up to a squad and unleash 3D6 Flamer hits and 6 melta shots? BBQ!

 Gamgee wrote:
Imagine Tau crisis suits with one twin-link flamer and one regular one. Muahah.

For all those loving the flamethrower buffs to all factions.

Spoiler:

Im loving the flame thrower buff for another reason all together. I play Salamanders. I hope to see more armies fielding them