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Its nice that they're putting in the ability to "hotfix" points, keeping the unit rules static while the ability to adjust points is good for balance

 nintura wrote:


27 points for a freaking multi-melta? o.O

Grav pistol is cheaper (but also perhaps weaker).

 nintura wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:
This was one of the least informative previews to date. How about some printed examples?

I'd really like to see how they're going to put such a granular points system in a different part of the book without making it a nightmare to list build by hand.

It's overall a good plan. I like the ability to re-point down the line, but it sounds awfully clunky in practice.

27 points for a freaking multi-melta? o.O

Probably taking into account that now they can move and shoot it more accurately and that it got more powerful because it essentially does extra damage against all targets now and not just vehicles.

That's why I haven't seen the point in getting upset about balance yet. We have no idea what things are going to be weighted against any more.

 nintura wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:
This was one of the least informative previews to date. How about some printed examples?

I'd really like to see how they're going to put such a granular points system in a different part of the book without making it a nightmare to list build by hand.

It's overall a good plan. I like the ability to re-point down the line, but it sounds awfully clunky in practice.

27 points for a freaking multi-melta? o.O

With split fire, I expect special and Heavy weapons to increase in points cost. Not too different from 2nd edition, where a marine was 30 points and a lascannon was 60 points (so double the cost of the model carrying it).

 docdoom77 wrote:
This was one of the least informative previews to date. How about some printed examples?

I'd really like to see how they're going to put such a granular points system in a different part of the book without making it a nightmare to list build by hand.

It's overall a good plan. I like the ability to re-point down the line, but it sounds awfully clunky in practice.

Almost like if you want to build your list by hand for a quick pickup game, you can do this thing where you use general power levels for stuff instead of pointing out every grav pistol!

 lessthanjeff wrote:

Probably taking into account that now they can move and shoot it more accurately and that it got more powerful because it essentially does extra damage against all targets now and not just vehicles.

That's why I haven't seen the point in getting upset about balance yet. We have no idea what things are going to be weighted against any more.

If anything the fact that it isn't in an increment of 5 tells us the value of the weapon may have been more heavily considered and that we may see the points for it be lower for an army with lower BS.

In matched play, your points will be capped across the whole game. So if you’re planning to summon units to the battlefield, you will need to set points aside to do this. You won’t need to specify what the points will be for though, so this does leave you with your options open and if during the game, you decide that what you really need is a fast combat unit instead of a durable objective holder, you’ll be able to summon the right tool for the job, points permitting.

So you just set aside say 200 pts for summoning and decide to summon bloodletters on game 1, daemonettes on game 2, etc etc?

Yeah that totally makes sense, takes some of the edge off heavy weapons firing on movement.

I wouldn't have minded more examples, but I guess you can only show so much.

Very exciting nonetheless!

 docdoom77 wrote:

 nintura wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:
This was one of the least informative previews to date. How about some printed examples?

I'd really like to see how they're going to put such a granular points system in a different part of the book without making it a nightmare to list build by hand.

It's overall a good plan. I like the ability to re-point down the line, but it sounds awfully clunky in practice.

27 points for a freaking multi-melta? o.O

With split fire, I expect special and Heavy weapons to increase in points cost. Not too different from 2nd edition, where a marine was 30 points and a lascannon was 60 points (so double the cost of the model carrying it).

It does seem like a pretty logical conclusion to have high point costs for powerful weapons, seeing as how many people are concerned about shooting being too powerful and that points cost is often brought up as the best balance for power.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

In matched play, your points will be capped across the whole game. So if you’re planning to summon units to the battlefield, you will need to set points aside to do this. You won’t need to specify what the points will be for though, so this does leave you with your options open and if during the game, you decide that what you really need is a fast combat unit instead of a durable objective holder, you’ll be able to summon the right tool for the job, points permitting.

So you just set aside say 200 pts for summoning and decide to summon bloodletters on game 1, daemonettes on game 2, etc etc?

Yes

I believe tanks are going to be QUITE expensive.

In fact I bet the 'base cost' of a multi-melta is 20 points.

Then they took the difference of a 4+ to a 3+ (33%) and added that (6.66 points) to arrive at the 27 point figure.

It did point out something odd. Though, I don't really know how this will work out for the Tournament circuit.


Example:
Game points 1500 points
Deployed Force: 1000 points
- 1 marine captain
- 2 Tactical squads with heavy bolter
- 2 Assault squads
- 1 Devastator squad with plasma cannons

Reserve force: 500 points
Reserve force 1 (500pts)
-- 2 Terminator squads
Reserve force 2 (500pts)
-- 2 Storm talons
-- 1 Assault squad
-- 1 Vanguard squad with Jump pack


So, in a 1500 pt game you deploy the 1000 pt unit and then can choose midway through the game to bring on either of the two reserve units. You won't have to tell your opponent at the beginning what the reserve component of your army is?

Heavy weapons will go up because now there isn't as many drawbacks as before. You can move and shoot (increasing the range)and target separate units so the value goes up. Interesting that they say 2000 will be the norm for a matched play game of about 2 hours. I'll be curious if this mean tourneys fgo from average of 1850 to 2000

So Tactical Marines have had yet another points decrease. I wonder if GW has finally found the right value after all this time?

Also it seems GW may have not learnt from the mistakes they made by over-nerfing summoning in AoS matched play... because unless Summoning Powers have absurdly low Cast values Summoning will probably be more dead than it is currently in Matched AoS, especially with Deep Strike existing in 40k.

For example, a Tactical Marine Squad of five models is Power Level 5, but in a matched play game, each of those Tactical Marines would cost 13 points each, with upgrades ranging from a grav-pistol for the Sergeant at 7 pts, all the way up to multi-meltas at 27 pts.

Interessting that models went down in points and special weapons went waay up. I wonder if this will be a trend? You can field more 'basic' models, but if you want some toys you're gonna have to pay.

 Nicorex wrote:
I am betting all heavy weapons have taken a good size jump up in points.

But guyz haven't ye herd that shooting will be dohmineting dis edition becuz split-fire n' shootn'scoot hevy wepunz

TBH Points balance was what had me the most concerned, but if this is anything to go off of, they've taken a really reasonable and common sense approach to it.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

In matched play, your points will be capped across the whole game. So if you’re planning to summon units to the battlefield, you will need to set points aside to do this. You won’t need to specify what the points will be for though, so this does leave you with your options open and if during the game, you decide that what you really need is a fast combat unit instead of a durable objective holder, you’ll be able to summon the right tool for the job, points permitting.

So you just set aside say 200 pts for summoning and decide to summon bloodletters on game 1, daemonettes on game 2, etc etc?

Yes

Interesting. I do hope this only affect summoned units (daemons, etc) and not Reserve as a whole...

''The points for units don’t appear on the datasheet but will be elsewhere in the same book... It also means that, in the future, points for units could change without invalidating existing books...''

If the new points are in errata then yes but if they are in an updated book only then my old book will be invalidated.

Youn wrote:
It did point out something odd. Though, I don't really know how this will work out for the Tournament circuit.


Example:
Game points 1500 points
Deployed Force: 1000 points
- 1 marine captain
- 2 Tactical squads with heavy bolter
- 2 Assault squads
- 1 Devastator squad with plasma cannons

Reserve force: 500 points
Reserve force 1 (500pts)
-- 2 Terminator squads
Reserve force 2 (500pts)
-- 2 Storm talons
-- 1 Assault squad
-- 1 Vanguard squad with Jump pack


So, in a 1500 pt game you deploy the 1000 pt unit and then can choose midway through the game to bring on either of the two reserve units. You won't have to tell your opponent at the beginning what the reserve component of your army is?

I think the flexible reserves is going to be a summoning only thing. It's something special they get to replace the fact that they no longer get free stuff. Normal reserved units are going to work just like 7th I bet.

 Malaur wrote:
Man, it looks like I sold my Daemon summon army at the right time!

I actually think summoning is going to be really, really good. It's like deepstrike, but you get to choose which you want at what time for what purpose. Need a heavy weapon? Get it. Need infantry to bog something down? get it instead. your opponent missing most of their heavy weaponry? Get that greater daemon out there.

This is very similar to Magic: The Gatherings Wish spells. They allow you to go to your sideboard and get the answer you need.

Like it a lot, hopefully the odd points costs mean that things will be much more granular so we have less things that cost the same but perform differently.

Like the summoning thing as well. Essentially you are buying flexibility (set points aside but don't have to specify the unit is how I read it). Much more balanced than adding extra units to a point capped game.

Of note it looks like most special weapons will be more expensive (though grav pistol went down in cost). If 7 is the min point in that unit then flamers cost more now. The multi melta also went from a cheap HW option to seemingly the most expensive. This also means grav cannons are cheaper. Hopefully that means they got toned down a lot as well.

 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:

 Nicorex wrote:
I am betting all heavy weapons have taken a good size jump up in points.

But guyz haven't ye herd that shooting will be dohmineting dis edition becuz split-fire n' shootn'scoot hevy wepunz

And that MSU (well, not entirely).

A multi-melta dev squad is 178 points.
Lascannons were previously twice as expensive as multi-meltas. Even if they only go to 40 points that's a 270 point squad...

I'm hoping those two forces are set as "reserves" and aren't summoned, meaning you can only do that with daemons and other "summoned" units...

Why wouldn't it be expensive for multi-damage weapons? After all,having tons of super killy weapons on the table would invalidate all balancing they did for Vehicles and such.

Youn wrote:
It did point out something odd. Though, I don't really know how this will work out for the Tournament circuit.


Example:
Game points 1500 points
Deployed Force: 1000 points
- 1 marine captain
- 2 Tactical squads with heavy bolter
- 2 Assault squads
- 1 Devastator squad with plasma cannons

Reserve force: 500 points
Reserve force 1 (500pts)
-- 2 Terminator squads
Reserve force 2 (500pts)
-- 2 Storm talons
-- 1 Assault squad
-- 1 Vanguard squad with Jump pack


So, in a 1500 pt game you deploy the 1000 pt unit and then can choose midway through the game to bring on either of the two reserve units. You won't have to tell your opponent at the beginning what the reserve component of your army is?

It doesn't say that - it's ONLY talking about summoning there.

As for the people saying summoning is dead, if you think the ability to tailor your list to your opponents on the fly is too weak, with respect, you are almost certainly wrong.

 lessthanjeff wrote:

 nintura wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:
This was one of the least informative previews to date. How about some printed examples?

I'd really like to see how they're going to put such a granular points system in a different part of the book without making it a nightmare to list build by hand.

It's overall a good plan. I like the ability to re-point down the line, but it sounds awfully clunky in practice.

27 points for a freaking multi-melta? o.O

Probably taking into account that now they can move and shoot it more accurately and that it got more powerful because it essentially does extra damage against all targets now and not just vehicles.

That's why I haven't seen the point in getting upset about balance yet. We have no idea what things are going to be weighted against any more.

Sure, but now that Dev squad that's taking 4 is going to be really, really expensive. Specially for a Salamanders army.

 nintura wrote:

 Malaur wrote:
Man, it looks like I sold my Daemon summon army at the right time!

I actually think summoning is going to be really, really good. It's like deepstrike, but you get to choose which you want at what time for what purpose. Need a heavy weapon? Get it. Need infantry to bog something down? get it instead. your opponent missing most of their heavy weaponry? Get that greater daemon out there.

This is very similar to Magic: The Gatherings Wish spells. They allow you to go to your sideboard and get the answer you need.

It's in built list tailoring, it's a very useful thing

 nintura wrote:

 Malaur wrote:
Man, it looks like I sold my Daemon summon army at the right time!

I actually think summoning is going to be really, really good. It's like deepstrike, but you get to choose which you want at what time for what purpose. Need a heavy weapon? Get it. Need infantry to bog something down? get it instead. your opponent missing most of their heavy weaponry? Get that greater daemon out there.

This is very similar to Magic: The Gatherings Wish spells. They allow you to go to your sideboard and get the answer you need.

It's a deck that is made all of sideboard, all the time!