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 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

 nintura wrote:
So you no longer roll to get them from reserves. You choose when they come in? And you have to have everything on the table by turn 3. And they can assault. No scatter. Wow.

It does makes reserve management much, much less random and more tactical - a clear improvement imo.

I find it funny how they remove randomness in some aspects and add them in others.

I am not sure that I'm sold on the whole "Assault after coming from reserves" but that remains to be seen.

Some randomness is needed to keep things interesting. This is why AoS players didn't fuss about 2D6 charges. At 9" you have to make 8", which is 15/36.

v0iddrgn wrote:

 Imateria wrote:
Finally, the Subterranean Assault rule will actually work!

Trygons become Drop Pods now LOL

Yeah, it always annoyed me how Trygons usually came on at the same time as, or after, everything else making their tunnel completely useless. I can see this as a brilliant way to get a horde of Hormagaunts into battle with the rear lines of an enemy turn 2 with only a 6" charge (because they're placed within 3" of the Trygon) and leaving the only room for your opponent to fall back being towards the rest of the army.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Most people probably want to move the thread on to the latest topic, but I'll make one final point about the 40k fluff:

What GW did to the Necron fluff was a bad bad blunder in my eyes.

You had these scary, merciless machines popping up from nowhere, almost the image of death, and very hard to kill,

and GW had to turn them into Ancient Egypt, thus robbing them off their power, fear factor, and mystery...

Years back, I used to do narrative scenarios with some average joe guardsman in the middle of nowhere, fighting a last ditch defence against these machines, and it was fun...

These days, you have no need to fill in the gaps about the Necrons with your imagination, because it has been done for you.

There was nothing wrong with GW dropping a hint here, a hint there, to add some spice to the Necrons, but chapter and verse?

It's like the missing primarchs - the power of the story and narrative is there because those missing primarchs are different to everybody.

And that made the game fun. Too much story is often not a good thing...

Except that we already had a faction that didn't care about you. It only wanted to devour you and didn't care about anything else whatsoever.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
How does a marine army of drop pods work in matched play?

lol physically deploy the drop pods already landed before your first turn?!

While I don't think that's how they'll do it, I could see it working.

Treat them kind of like infiltration units, placing them after the rest of the deployment.

Who knows?

You will likely be forced to land them in your deployment area.

Possibly, but I don't know if I'd buy it.

The whole point of the drop pods is to deploy into tactically advantageous positions/

 nintura wrote:


Well, as stated, the odds are against you making that charge given the average will be 7". Plus overwatch. However, with Nids and Fleet....

Don't forget the 1" bubble.

At 9", you are getting your charge off less than 50% of the time. I am hoping for stuff like Jump Packs to aid in charging, so stuff like Assault Marines, Vanguard Veterans, and Raptors to be able to get in the turn they arrive though.

 Imateria wrote:

v0iddrgn wrote:

 Imateria wrote:
Finally, the Subterranean Assault rule will actually work!

Trygons become Drop Pods now LOL

Yeah, it always annoyed me how Trygons usually came on at the same time as, or after, everything else making their tunnel completely useless. I can see this as a brilliant way to get a horde of Genestealers into battle with the rear lines of an enemy turn 2 with only a 6" charge (because they're placed within 3" of the Trygon) and leaving the only room for your opponent to fall back being towards the rest of the army.

Fixed that for you.

No more "no one on the tabletop turn one". Excellent. I love the idea of drop pods, but I do think, especially for matched play, that some stuff should be on the table first turn. The 50-50 split they mention seems like a good compromise.

Also, for those deep strike truthers out there, it could have been worse - the rule is half your total units, when it could have been based on point value. So you can still probably DS a whole mess of killy stuff if that's what props your tent. It might take some army list massaging to get done (lots o' cheap troops), but that's something we're all very comfortable with.

Yep, it strikes me as a basically "You forgot, thats on you" rule.

I wonder how things like the Scout speeder Jamming beacon will work? Maybe there will be things that increase the range from that model.

I really REALLY hope intercept is nerfed. It basically made it so I couldnt take half of the models I wanted to. I hope they implement something like "Each unit may only shoot once per player turn" or something instead of the old overwatch after intercept rules.

However even more so than anything else we have seen movement and placement is going to be even more key than it was before.

They have streamlined the game and removed a LOT of randomness from things like movement and deployment.

There are so many things that you can now plan for instead of having areas where your entire battle plan gets screwed by a single gakky die role. You get more control over morale and fallbacks, you get more control over unit movement and placement, you dont scatter and can make an educated risk assessment with things like blast weapons.

One thing I REALLY like so far is that (with the example of the battle cannon) they are trying to give things their own unique role. Before it was always "Two things do this and this one is ALWAYS better"

Obviously I have some concerns and dont have the entire picture yet but I have to say as someone who has played since third this is the most excited for a new edition I have ever been!

Reminder of the live Q&A tomorrow...

 Imateria wrote:

Yeah, it always annoyed me how Trygons usually came on at the same time as, or after, everything else making their tunnel completely useless. I can see this as a brilliant way to get a horde of Hormagaunts into battle with the rear lines of an enemy turn 2 with only a 6" charge (because they're placed within 3" of the Trygon) and leaving the only room for your opponent to fall back being towards the rest of the army.

*IF* they are foolish enough to leave such a big gap in their lines.

Which means they need to huddle together. Which means more units get looped into charges.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
At 9", you are getting your charge off less than 50% of the time. I am hoping for stuff like Jump Packs to aid in charging, so stuff like Assault Marines, Vanguard Veterans, and Raptors to be able to get in the turn they arrive though.

Bonuses to charge are fine as long as there are no turn 1 deepstrikes allowed whatsoever.

 nintura wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

 nintura wrote:
So you no longer roll to get them from reserves. You choose when they come in? And you have to have everything on the table by turn 3. And they can assault. No scatter. Wow.

It does makes reserve management much, much less random and more tactical - a clear improvement imo.

I find it funny how they remove randomness in some aspects and add them in others.

I am not sure that I'm sold on the whole "Assault after coming from reserves" but that remains to be seen.

Well, as stated, the odds are against you making that charge given the average will be 7". Plus overwatch. However, with Nids and Fleet....

Highlighted for emphasis as it's exactly what I am brooding on. Nids with tunnels and Eldar popping out of webway gates with fleet.

And even without fleet one can still safely secure T1 charges with the Trygon and its accompannying unit because it doesn't specify that you can't do this on T1.

Oh well, we'll see.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
At 9", you are getting your charge off less than 50% of the time. I am hoping for stuff like Jump Packs to aid in charging, so stuff like Assault Marines, Vanguard Veterans, and Raptors to be able to get in the turn they arrive though.

Warp Talons - Mwuahaha!

Oh gods I can't wait to see their rules.

If summoning can be done after turn 3 it could be another reason to use it.

 kurdan wrote:
If summoning can be done after turn 3 it could be another reason to use it.

I'll guarantee it can.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
At 9", you are getting your charge off less than 50% of the time. I am hoping for stuff like Jump Packs to aid in charging, so stuff like Assault Marines, Vanguard Veterans, and Raptors to be able to get in the turn they arrive though.

Warp Talons - Mwuahaha!

Oh gods I can't wait to see their rules.

Keep in mind, the Trygon arrives automatically, according to GW Facebook, some units might have to roll to arrive from Reserves. Which is fine, as long as my Blood Angels get a bonus or flat out automatically pass that roll.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

 nintura wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

 nintura wrote:
So you no longer roll to get them from reserves. You choose when they come in? And you have to have everything on the table by turn 3. And they can assault. No scatter. Wow.

It does makes reserve management much, much less random and more tactical - a clear improvement imo.

I find it funny how they remove randomness in some aspects and add them in others.

I am not sure that I'm sold on the whole "Assault after coming from reserves" but that remains to be seen.

Well, as stated, the odds are against you making that charge given the average will be 7". Plus overwatch. However, with Nids and Fleet....

Highlighted for emphasis as it's exactly what I am brooding on. Nids with tunnels and Eldar popping out of webway gates with fleet.

And even without fleet one can still safely secure T1 charges with the Trygon and its accompannying unit because it doesn't specify that you can't do this on T1.

Oh well, we'll see.

Has it been confirmed that you can deepstrike on T1?

 nintura wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

 nintura wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

 nintura wrote:
So you no longer roll to get them from reserves. You choose when they come in? And you have to have everything on the table by turn 3. And they can assault. No scatter. Wow.

It does makes reserve management much, much less random and more tactical - a clear improvement imo.

I find it funny how they remove randomness in some aspects and add them in others.

I am not sure that I'm sold on the whole "Assault after coming from reserves" but that remains to be seen.

Well, as stated, the odds are against you making that charge given the average will be 7". Plus overwatch. However, with Nids and Fleet....

Highlighted for emphasis as it's exactly what I am brooding on. Nids with tunnels and Eldar popping out of webway gates with fleet.

And even without fleet one can still safely secure T1 charges with the Trygon and its accompannying unit because it doesn't specify that you can't do this on T1.

Oh well, we'll see.

Has it been confirmed that you can deepstrike on T1?

The Trygon can automatically. GW Facebook said that other units might have to roll to do it.

From the demon article does anyone else think the native +1 ATK for charging might be gone?

They said that "They have this special rule that allows them to get +1 attack when they charge!"

Something I didnt see mentioned and might be interesting to consider.

I am interested to see how the number of units in your army will be calculated. Since dedicated transports are bought for a detachment instead of a unit(a really welcome change I might add which circumvents the transports as force org chart issue). Does the pod and the unit count as two in reserve? What if they have 5 men in the unit and two characters. does that count as 4 units in reserve?

 nintura wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

 nintura wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

 nintura wrote:
So you no longer roll to get them from reserves. You choose when they come in? And you have to have everything on the table by turn 3. And they can assault. No scatter. Wow.

It does makes reserve management much, much less random and more tactical - a clear improvement imo.

I find it funny how they remove randomness in some aspects and add them in others.

I am not sure that I'm sold on the whole "Assault after coming from reserves" but that remains to be seen.

Well, as stated, the odds are against you making that charge given the average will be 7". Plus overwatch. However, with Nids and Fleet....

Highlighted for emphasis as it's exactly what I am brooding on. Nids with tunnels and Eldar popping out of webway gates with fleet.

And even without fleet one can still safely secure T1 charges with the Trygon and its accompannying unit because it doesn't specify that you can't do this on T1.

Oh well, we'll see.

Has it been confirmed that you can deepstrike on T1?

I have read the article and the Trygon ability three times already and I see nothing saying against it. ESPECIALLY in the Trygon's ability....

It... worries me a bit.

 His Master's Voice wrote:

 En Excelsis wrote:
Necrons (as awesome as the models look - and they do look awesome), they are the most absurd addition to the game and they did s much more hamr than good by being squeezed in. It required that the GW writers literally write over existing materlal (Eldar).

I disagree. The initial iteration of Necron lore meshed with the 40k mythos very well. It was Lovecraftian and eldritch in ways no other faction, save perhaps the Slaves to Darkness period Chaos, ever managed to be.

Then they got Warded.

There's no doubt that once Ward got involved things became worse, but IMO the whole introduction of them was flawed. Again - I really like the models. They look great - it's tough to be both frightening and simple, and they look like a skeleton made of metal - too much more would have been less intimidating. The models invoke a very 'Terminator' sense of imagery.

The reason I consider the whole faction to be such a missed opportunity is because there were so many things they could have done but didn't. For example, In the Dark Age of Technology when humanity first 'conquered' the galaxy, they had created the 'Iron Men', Which were Artificially Intelligent robots that eventually rose up against their masters and played a significant role in the collapse of that human empire. The Necrons would have been much more interesting if they had been written in this way - they are more advanced because they came from a period of greater technology. They would have weapons and armors, all stylized in the themes that were prominent in the civilization they were formerly a part of.

The whole Egyptian Dynasty thing just felt like an attempt to shoehorn the Tomb Kings into 40k - it's rushed and haphazard and the lore behind them is garbage. The re-re-re-retconned history of the C'tan and the Old Ones is some of the worst writing in the current setting.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

Highlighted for emphasis as it's exactly what I am brooding on. Nids with tunnels and Eldar popping out of webway gates with fleet.

And even without fleet one can still safely secure T1 charges with the Trygon and its accompannying unit because it doesn't specify that you can't do this on T1.

Oh well, we'll see.

Very likely. In AoS you can tell by the list whether or not they will try to teleport in on you so you need to plan accordingly.

Also in before "Tau are now useless! Burn everything!".

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

Highlighted for emphasis as it's exactly what I am brooding on. Nids with tunnels and Eldar popping out of webway gates with fleet.

And even without fleet one can still safely secure T1 charges with the Trygon and its accompannying unit because it doesn't specify that you can't do this on T1.

Oh well, we'll see.

Very likely. In AoS you can tell by the list whether or not they will try to teleport in on you so you need to plan accordingly.

Also in before "Tau are now useless! Burn everything!".

WTB Supreme Fire discipline back for my DA, please.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
At 9", you are getting your charge off less than 50% of the time. I am hoping for stuff like Jump Packs to aid in charging, so stuff like Assault Marines, Vanguard Veterans, and Raptors to be able to get in the turn they arrive though.

Warp Talons - Mwuahaha!

Oh gods I can't wait to see their rules.

I really liked the Warp Talons models but could never really get a consistent use for them in my FOC.

I like the reserve changes. Yeah, you can't have a full Deathwing or Droppod army deepstrike in the first turn, but thats why Matched Play puts "balance" before "fluffy". To have those fluffy armies you can have Narrative games.


And, En Excelsis, I just want to say that if you think Tau are genocidal, you just don't know their Lore. In the fact that they don't belong to the universe, I'm not gonna discuss thats. Is your opinion and is fine.

 Leth wrote:
From the demon article does anyone else think the native +1 ATK for charging might be gone?

They said that "They have this special rule that allows them to get +1 attack when they charge!"

Something I didnt see mentioned and might be interesting to consider.

I am interested to see how the number of units in your army will be calculated. Since dedicated transports are bought for a detachment instead of a unit(a really welcome change I might add which circumvents the transports as force org chart issue). Does the pod and the unit count as two in reserve? What if they have 5 men in the unit and two characters. does that count as 4 units in reserve?

Man, I hope that they don't take that away. Perhaps the Daemons will get an additional +1 attack? Otherwise, if they take away Pistols giving +1 attack and charging giving +1 attack, Assault Marines are going to be garbage tier.

To all those guys posting on here that the loss of vehicle armor facings and templates have made tactical positioning a thing of the past, today's "teleport" rules have squashed your arguments flat. Now with units arriving from reserves being allowed to launch assaults in the same turn BUT[i] must come in at least 9" away, model positioning is key. Make sure you have some chaff units in your list, guys, it's a whole new day.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

 nintura wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

 nintura wrote:
So you no longer roll to get them from reserves. You choose when they come in? And you have to have everything on the table by turn 3. And they can assault. No scatter. Wow.

It does makes reserve management much, much less random and more tactical - a clear improvement imo.

I find it funny how they remove randomness in some aspects and add them in others.

I am not sure that I'm sold on the whole "Assault after coming from reserves" but that remains to be seen.

Well, as stated, the odds are against you making that charge given the average will be 7". Plus overwatch. However, with Nids and Fleet....

Highlighted for emphasis as it's exactly what I am brooding on. Nids with tunnels and Eldar popping out of webway gates with fleet.

And even without fleet one can still safely secure T1 charges with the Trygon and its accompannying unit because it doesn't specify that you can't do this on T1.

Oh well, we'll see.

It has to be said, I have failed 4" charges with Fleet before. Re-rolling that 2 is just as likely to give a 1 as anything else.