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Is there a chance the new marines are built from the work Corax was doing? The marines he made where superior to normal Astartes, grown quicker, and, until someone slid a little chaos into the mix, ready to go into mass production. Maybe after 10,000 years Cawl figured out how to reverse the damage and start mass producing super marines again.

krazynadechukr wrote:
From strongest to least....You have the Emperor, followed by Primarchs, followed by Custodes (however, Custodes were made from the Emperors gene code, so they were/are almost equal to primarchs and some argue better), then astartes, then thunder warriors... Noww the new marines are under custodes but above space marines.

Incorrect. From strongest down, we have the Emperor in his prime, the Primarchs, Thunderwarriors, Custodes, and only then the Astartes. Custodes and Thunderwarriors are two very different lines of enhanced soldiers that lead to the creation of the Primarch, which then lead to the Astartes. Astartes have always acknowledged that Custodes and Thunderwarriors were superior yet flawed designs, while Astartes take aspects from both lines for easier production with a lower failure rate. Astartes are no where near the peak of human augmentation, Thunderwarriors were most definitely the pushed limit of human augmentation.

SJ

 ILegion wrote:
Is there a chance the new marines are built from the work Corax was doing? The marines he made where superior to normal Astartes, grown quicker, and, until someone slid a little chaos into the mix, ready to go into mass production. Maybe after 10,000 years Cawl figured out how to reverse the damage and start mass producing super marines again.

Yes but many people are seeming to ignore it. IT has been my theory, and the most objectively right option. It's why I think it is based on the corax marine bit. Which means we have some actual deep lore exploration about how he (Gulliman) found out about it) and all that.

I hope they are just power-armored ogryn that Guilliman tries to pass off as new and improved marines for morale purposes...

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

krazynadechukr wrote:
From strongest to least....You have the Emperor, followed by Primarchs, followed by Custodes (however, Custodes were made from the Emperors gene code, so they were/are almost equal to primarchs and some argue better), then astartes, then thunder warriors... Noww the new marines are under custodes but above space marines.

Incorrect. From strongest down, we have the Emperor in his prime, the Primarchs, Thunderwarriors, Custodes, and only then the Astartes. Custodes and Thunderwarriors are two very different lines of enhanced soldiers that lead to the creation of the Primarch, which then lead to the Astartes. Astartes have always acknowledged that Custodes and Thunderwarriors were superior yet flawed designs, while Astartes take aspects from both lines for easier production with a lower failure rate. Astartes are no where near the peak of human augmentation, Thunderwarriors were most definitely the pushed limit of human augmentation.

SJ

Questionable as MoM puts Thunderwarriors as weaker and inferior to Astartes.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

krazynadechukr wrote:
From strongest to least....You have the Emperor, followed by Primarchs, followed by Custodes (however, Custodes were made from the Emperors gene code, so they were/are almost equal to primarchs and some argue better), then astartes, then thunder warriors... Noww the new marines are under custodes but above space marines.

Incorrect. From strongest down, we have the Emperor in his prime, the Primarchs, Thunderwarriors, Custodes, and only then the Astartes. Custodes and Thunderwarriors are two very different lines of enhanced soldiers that lead to the creation of the Primarch, which then lead to the Astartes. Astartes have always acknowledged that Custodes and Thunderwarriors were superior yet flawed designs, while Astartes take aspects from both lines for easier production with a lower failure rate. Astartes are no where near the peak of human augmentation, Thunderwarriors were most definitely the pushed limit of human augmentation.

SJ

Questionable as MoM puts Thunderwarriors as weaker and inferior to Astartes.

That would be a single example versus many that show otherwise.

SJ

I expect the new marines will just be a more expensive version of marine with a higher strength and toughness (or what-ever goes). Maybe a few toys, a few heavy weapons carried like normal weapons. Essentially just some form of non-custodes-but-really-are-custodes-in-blue.

I don't expect a return to thunderwarriors though, maybe just a continuation of the whole 'trying to do what the Emprah was originally tinkering with'

In the old fluff Thunderwarriors were just prototype Astartes and certainly were not depicted as superior in any way or form. Thunderwarriors being über is just Black Library bs.

 Crimson wrote:
In the old fluff Thunderwarriors were just prototype Astartes and certainly were not depicted as superior in any way or form. Thunderwarriors being über is just Black Library bs.

For once, I agree completely.

 Wyzilla wrote:
I really don't know why Guilliman would want to make soldiers that melted down into puddles of goo and were extermianted for being uncontrollable and subject to mutations.

I'm sure I'm not the only one whose sat back and thought "Matt Ward is behind this" right? Right? XD I mean Matt War would never let his blatant fanboism bleed into the lore and fundamentally make everything silly, right? Right?!

Thunder Warriors were large, greater in size than most Space Marines. Even the few that survived the end of the Unification Wars were easily more than a match for an Astartes and even the mighty Custodes in single combat. They were made highly resistant to psychic attack, perhaps because of the sorcery they would regularly face during the Age of Strife. They had tremendous upper body strength that, when coupled with their early model of power armor, made them virtually unbeatable in close combat.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Thunder_Warriors

 Azreal13 wrote:

Thunder Warriors were large, greater in size than most Space Marines. Even the few that survived the end of the Unification Wars were easily more than a match for an Astartes and even the mighty Custodes in single combat. They were made highly resistant to psychic attack, perhaps because of the sorcery they would regularly face during the Age of Strife. They had tremendous upper body strength that, when coupled with their early model of power armor, made them virtually unbeatable in close combat.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Thunder_Warriors

And posting a poorly cited wiki page means what?

Is there fluff about the Thunder Warriors being physically superior to Astartes in any sources other than The Outcast Dead?

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

Thunder Warriors were large, greater in size than most Space Marines. Even the few that survived the end of the Unification Wars were easily more than a match for an Astartes and even the mighty Custodes in single combat. They were made highly resistant to psychic attack, perhaps because of the sorcery they would regularly face during the Age of Strife. They had tremendous upper body strength that, when coupled with their early model of power armor, made them virtually unbeatable in close combat.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Thunder_Warriors

And posting a poorly cited wiki page means what?

Means I don't have to reread The Outcast Dead and cite page numbers for stuff I know was discussed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Is there fluff about the Thunder Warriors being physically superior to Astartes in any sources other than The Outcast Dead?

There's not a lot of fluff about Thunder Warriors full stop.

 Azreal13 wrote:


There's not a lot of fluff about Thunder Warriors full stop.

True but we're talking about in a book in which a World Eater punches through power armour with his bare hands. It conflicts with established fluff and I'm disinclined to give it precedence over other fluff.

That presents an interesting dilemma.

Do you dismiss the entire book for one instance?

Do you accept the creative licence and take the rest of the book on board?

Why should any other fluff be given priority? There is no established fluff for Thunder Warriors beyond passing mentions with little detail.

I'm inclined to take it at face value, as it is the most detailed and (probably) most recent from an era that has been expanded on a lot in the last few years.

Codex Ultramarines, 2nd Edition wrote:
Genetically altered warriors appeared in the Emperor's armies even before he had completed the conquest of Earth. They were the first of their kind and as such their powers were less than the Space marines of later years.

I'm not going to go through all the marine codices, but Thunder Warriors being inferior marine prototypes has been established a long time ago. Personally I'd just ignore most of the BL stuff as embarrassing fan fiction that it is. YMMV.

Or that the Imperial propaganda machine couldn't possibly admit that the Astartes weren't the greatest that there was or ever had been.

Everything is canon and nothing is.

Thunderwarriors were always inferior to Astartes, that has never been an argument. The question was on strength. Thunderwarriors had an issue of suddenly dying due to massive organ failure, and they were filled with rage to the point of being difficult to direct as an armed force. Those are two huge flaws that do make Thunderwarriors a deadend line of soldier enhancement. But a Thunderwarrior could definitely kill an Astartes with a single blow, and definitely best a Custode in single combat.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Thunderwarriors were always inferior to Astartes, that has never been an argument. The question was on strength. Thunderwarriors had an issue of suddenly dying due to massive organ failure, and they were filled with rage to the point of being difficult to direct as an armed force. Those are two huge flaws that do make Thunderwarriors a deadend line of soldier enhancement. But a Thunderwarrior could definitely kill an Astartes with a single blow, and definitely best a Custode in single combat.

SJ

Except that only comes from Outcast Dead, which it in-of-itself is inconsistent as and clashes heavily with established canon. Such as a marine punching through artificer armor. Or Space Marines being mortally wounded because they got stabbed in the heart, even though they have two hearts and only need one to survive.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Thunderwarriors were always inferior to Astartes, that has never been an argument. The question was on strength. Thunderwarriors had an issue of suddenly dying due to massive organ failure, and they were filled with rage to the point of being difficult to direct as an armed force. Those are two huge flaws that do make Thunderwarriors a deadend line of soldier enhancement. But a Thunderwarrior could definitely kill an Astartes with a single blow, and definitely best a Custode in single combat.

SJ

Basically this. I've always considered thunder warriors to be physically superior but highly unstable. They also can't undertake the rigorous training that astartes go through due to their limited life spans.
This makes them extremely unreliable as soldiers in comparison to an astartes. You can't lead a sustainable crusade with thunder warriors, hell, more would die of old age than to fighting.
There are plenty ways in which they are inferior to astartes, but in terms of raw physique they would have been superior by quite a bit.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Thunderwarriors were always inferior to Astartes, that has never been an argument. The question was on strength. Thunderwarriors had an issue of suddenly dying due to massive organ failure, and they were filled with rage to the point of being difficult to direct as an armed force. Those are two huge flaws that do make Thunderwarriors a deadend line of soldier enhancement. But a Thunderwarrior could definitely kill an Astartes with a single blow, and definitely best a Custode in single combat.

SJ

Except that only comes from Outcast Dead, which it in-of-itself is inconsistent as and clashes heavily with established canon. Such as a marine punching through artificer armor. Or Space Marines being mortally wounded because they got stabbed in the heart, even though they have two hearts and only need one to survive.

Please, share the established canon. It should be fascinating.

SJ