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We have a 10,000 year old Salamander as some proof, the fellow didn't spend any time in the warp to change his lifespan. Sadly, he couldn't exercise and wasted away.

 Wyzilla wrote:
You got a source for that?

https://twitter.com/GrahamMcNeill/status/592595290668048384

Makes for an interesting story/game idea though.

Far flung planets must still exist where there is no contact with the Imperium (on the fringes, say). So some planets or systems likely exist as they have since the long night or whatever it was called. It'd be clever of Chaos to show up, acting as "loyal" Imperium folks, etc...get the people into a supportive fervor, lead them into war for their own devices, etc. Alpha Legion could pull it off, perhaps. Have an entire army (and new "marines") initiated into what they think is the Emperor's will...

Mudrat wrote:
I thought the OP's question was more along the lines of: how many CSM are Horus Heresy survivors, how many are renegades from loyalist chapters, and how many were damn kids that the were literally born in hell, taken (or offered) by their parents, and endlessly experimented upon and forced to kill just the survive another day? The easiest one for me to remember in the fluff is

Spoiler:

Uriel Ventris' IW clone

, and he was once an imperial citizen. If the child was born in the EoT, never saw anything but chaos until he was a power-armoured sociopath incabable of other emotions, can we really consider him a traitor.

All humans belong to the Emperor, even those who are lost and wander in darkness. If these lost souls are righteous, they will see the Truth when first coming into contact with the Emperor's Light and His righteous servants. In such a way, uncounted billions have flocked to the Emperor's Banner, forming the great Imperium of Man. Those who continue to reject the Emperor's light and turn away His gift of salvation are traitors and heretics of the worst kind. Their souls are rotten and beyond redemption.
Of course, those who willingly consort with Chaos and Warp-spawn are lost to us forever regardless of whether they know the Emperor's Truth. An ignorant heretic is still a heretic. They may be pitied, but should never be regarded with sympathy or mercy for they will turn upon the righteous and work to extinguish the Emperor's divine light whenever given the opportunity to do so.
The Heretic and Blasphemer can offer no excuse for their crimes. Those who are pardoned merely live to further shroud Humanity from the Light of the Emperor with the Darkness of their souls

Mudrat wrote:
Most people seem to be implying that they ever had a choice. Their first contact with Imperials ? Everyone shooting at everyone else, how's he supposed to have the slightest choice in the matter. Hate him for being an enemy and murdering Imperial citizens, sure. But remember that the only reason some CSM's are like they are is because, and to harp on it again, they were born in hell. Is Clagar, Grimnir, Dante, Creed and the rest had been born in the EoT, are we really going to pretend they'd be the Imperial heroes they are?

Choice is an illusion. A man, an individual, is insignificant and meaningless. His fate is determined by powers beyond his control. But a righteous soul will always find a way to rule his own fate by coming to the Emperor's service. To question that is to doubt, and to doubt is heretical.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:


Graham McNeill stated on Twitter the BL policy is SMs are functionally immortal. Dying of age just doesn't happen to them, at least as far as fluff-writers are concerned. I've at least never heard of a SM dying of old age.

You got a source for that?

Wat.

A source would be a link to his specific post making that statement.

The "immortality" of a Space Marine is mentioned in numerous books (i.e. almost all of the Horus Heresy books). However it is stated it's uncommon due to combat, wear-n-tear etc. Seems to be frowned upon if you survive yet suffer so many negative effects from combat that you end up skulking around the Chapter, of questionable value.

Immortality doesn't mean a whole lot if you're in combat nearly every year of your life. This is of course based on Horus Heresy marines, so perhaps things have changed - like when the Tyrant of Badab started short-cutting the methods for creating them, etc.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:


Graham McNeill stated on Twitter the BL policy is SMs are functionally immortal. Dying of age just doesn't happen to them, at least as far as fluff-writers are concerned. I've at least never heard of a SM dying of old age.

You got a source for that?

Wat.

A source would be a link to his specific post making that statement.

Which was provided by someone else, but the source was given. Do you expect exact chapter, page, line, phrase and syllable number of each HH novel that's used as a source?

 Elbows wrote:
Makes for an interesting story/game idea though.

Far flung planets must still exist where there is no contact with the Imperium (on the fringes, say). So some planets or systems likely exist as they have since the long night or whatever it was called. It'd be clever of Chaos to show up, acting as "loyal" Imperium folks, etc...get the people into a supportive fervor, lead them into war for their own devices, etc. Alpha Legion could pull it off, perhaps. Have an entire army (and new "marines") initiated into what they think is the Emperor's will...

This is a good chunk of what my Black Legion/Fallen Dark Angel warband is about. They recruit/sow the seeds of discontent by telling horror stories of what Horus was shown that caused him to rebel. They also tell the people of these systems that Horus's failure is why they live the life they do if they are fairly typical Imperial citizens. The Emperor and his Imperium are the ones that have brought on the fall of mankind. While Horus may have failed, there is a second chance to right the wrongs of his rebellion under the leadership of Abbadon. While partially delusional, most of the warband believes this to be the truth as well.

Any person smart enough to notice the chaos taint of the warband has it explained that the Black Legion had to endure and then thrive in the one place the Imperium wouldn't follow. Their mutations and Chaotic actions are the scars the legion must bear if they ever hope to overthrow the Imperium of Man and return humanity to greatness once again.

Needless to say, I don't think my warband is ever short of willing initiates (cultists) which serve as a recruiting pool for any geneseed and power armor the warband has available. I suppose my warband sounds much more like the Alpha Legion (perhaps they are and infiltrating the Black Legion and the Fallen and I don't even know). I like this as a backstory I think it add dimension to my collection and gives me a good reason why my CSM army isn't that fair away from a regular space marine one in terms of units.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:


Graham McNeill stated on Twitter the BL policy is SMs are functionally immortal. Dying of age just doesn't happen to them, at least as far as fluff-writers are concerned. I've at least never heard of a SM dying of old age.

You got a source for that?

Wat.

A source would be a link to his specific post making that statement.

Which was provided by someone else, but the source was given. Do you expect exact chapter, page, line, phrase and syllable number of each HH novel that's used as a source?

Actually yes if I want to be able to find it to double check its factual nature. Page citations after all are an academic standard.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:


Graham McNeill stated on Twitter the BL policy is SMs are functionally immortal. Dying of age just doesn't happen to them, at least as far as fluff-writers are concerned. I've at least never heard of a SM dying of old age.

You got a source for that?

Wat.

A source would be a link to his specific post making that statement.

Which was provided by someone else, but the source was given. Do you expect exact chapter, page, line, phrase and syllable number of each HH novel that's used as a source?

Actually yes if I want to be able to find it to double check its factual nature. Page citations after all are an academic standard.

NcMiells Twitter is a webpage, which is accepted. The direct tweet is like asking for the exact paragraph number.

 Ginsu33 wrote:
I have no idea what you are all talking about...

You can be LOYAL to the Imperium.

If you are LOYAL but decide to do things without authorization/be a rebel or outlaw about it RENEGADE

If you don't follow Imperial Creed and commit acts of heresy you are a HERETIC

And finally.. if you were loyal to the Imperium, and have decided to violate that allegiance, breach said trust and actually take up arms against the Imperium, you are a TRAITOR!

Chaos Space Marines fight for Traitor Legions - Thus: traitors. Until the ratio tips past 50% which doesn't seem likely, there will always be enough jerks to keep the T in traitor going for that faction.

Eisenhorn contradicts a lot of these points.
He does things without authorization.
He commits things that could be called acts of heresy.
However he still ultimately serves to the benefit of IoM.

Cypher is another example of this, but his actual loyalties are unknown.

The IoM seems to have a standpoint of, if you are not 100% on my side, then you are a traitor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:


Graham McNeill stated on Twitter the BL policy is SMs are functionally immortal. Dying of age just doesn't happen to them, at least as far as fluff-writers are concerned. I've at least never heard of a SM dying of old age.

You got a source for that?

Wat.

A source would be a link to his specific post making that statement.

Which was provided by someone else, but the source was given. Do you expect exact chapter, page, line, phrase and syllable number of each HH novel that's used as a source?

Actually yes if I want to be able to find it to double check its factual nature. Page citations after all are an academic standard.

NcMiells Twitter is a webpage, which is accepted. The direct tweet is like asking for the exact paragraph number.

It does state in the Adeptus Custodes book that they are essentially immortal when it comes to age. This of course would apply to primarchs as well, I don't think it would be a stretch to consider SM's technically immortal as well. I mean Belisarius Cawl is what, 10k+ years old? and he is human/cyborg. He doesn't even have SM anatomy. I think the issue with SM's living as long as they are in the line of fire often enough that they just eventually get killed prior to being 1000's of years old. Because of how dangerous what they do, is, they just eventually run into a bad combat situation. Most space marines looked like their face walked through a meatgrinder when they only have a couple studs.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Mudrat wrote:
I thought the OP's question was more along the lines of: how many CSM are Horus Heresy survivors, how many are renegades from loyalist chapters, and how many were damn kids that the were literally born in hell, taken (or offered) by their parents, and endlessly experimented upon and forced to kill just the survive another day? The easiest one for me to remember in the fluff is

Spoiler:

Uriel Ventris' IW clone

, and he was once an imperial citizen. If the child was born in the EoT, never saw anything but chaos until he was a power-armoured sociopath incabable of other emotions, can we really consider him a traitor.

All humans belong to the Emperor, even those who are lost and wander in darkness. If these lost souls are righteous, they will see the Truth when first coming into contact with the Emperor's Light and His righteous servants. In such a way, uncounted billions have flocked to the Emperor's Banner, forming the great Imperium of Man. Those who continue to reject the Emperor's light and turn away His gift of salvation are traitors and heretics of the worst kind. Their souls are rotten and beyond redemption.
Of course, those who willingly consort with Chaos and Warp-spawn are lost to us forever regardless of whether they know the Emperor's Truth. An ignorant heretic is still a heretic. They may be pitied, but should never be regarded with sympathy or mercy for they will turn upon the righteous and work to extinguish the Emperor's divine light whenever given the opportunity to do so.
The Heretic and Blasphemer can offer no excuse for their crimes. Those who are pardoned merely live to further shroud Humanity from the Light of the Emperor with the Darkness of their souls

Mudrat wrote:
Most people seem to be implying that they ever had a choice. Their first contact with Imperials ? Everyone shooting at everyone else, how's he supposed to have the slightest choice in the matter. Hate him for being an enemy and murdering Imperial citizens, sure. But remember that the only reason some CSM's are like they are is because, and to harp on it again, they were born in hell. Is Clagar, Grimnir, Dante, Creed and the rest had been born in the EoT, are we really going to pretend they'd be the Imperial heroes they are?

Choice is an illusion. A man, an individual, is insignificant and meaningless. His fate is determined by powers beyond his control. But a righteous soul will always find a way to rule his own fate by coming to the Emperor's service. To question that is to doubt, and to doubt is heretical.

Count me a heretic then
But yeah, my only problem is using the word traitor, it just means something different to me. Calling them all heretics goes down much easier.

Well, there was a Black Library short story about an Iron Warriors Character (he might have been a dreadnought) who met with various Champions of the big Traitor Legions and asks them for their best war story in exchange for eldar spirit stones.

All of them then give their accounts, but each one of their tales took place long AFTER the heresy.

They were from the original Legions by name, emperors children, world eaters, and thousand sons IIRC, but they were second generation recruits.

The Iron Warriors Character is then offended that none of them are true veterans of the long war and decides to keep the prize eldar spirit stones for himself.

 Witchfinder General wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
You got a source for that?

https://twitter.com/GrahamMcNeill/status/592595290668048384

Just noticed this, thanks for the cite!

It is interesting from a character perspective to know if a particular chaos space marine might remember a time when they called their loyalist brethren, "brother". If they once knew the light of the Emperor and of worlds untouched by the taint of chaos. Those space marines who once fought shoulder to shoulder with loyalist legions or chapters yet broke those battleforged bonds and threw their lot in with the ruinous powers. I don't know if such thoughts are encouraged or suppressed by the chaplains but those loyalists that do dwell on it must feel an extra righteous anger.

Mudrat wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Mudrat wrote:
I thought the OP's question was more along the lines of: how many CSM are Horus Heresy survivors, how many are renegades from loyalist chapters, and how many were damn kids that the were literally born in hell, taken (or offered) by their parents, and endlessly experimented upon and forced to kill just the survive another day? The easiest one for me to remember in the fluff is

Spoiler:

Uriel Ventris' IW clone

, and he was once an imperial citizen. If the child was born in the EoT, never saw anything but chaos until he was a power-armoured sociopath incabable of other emotions, can we really consider him a traitor.

All humans belong to the Emperor, even those who are lost and wander in darkness. If these lost souls are righteous, they will see the Truth when first coming into contact with the Emperor's Light and His righteous servants. In such a way, uncounted billions have flocked to the Emperor's Banner, forming the great Imperium of Man. Those who continue to reject the Emperor's light and turn away His gift of salvation are traitors and heretics of the worst kind. Their souls are rotten and beyond redemption.
Of course, those who willingly consort with Chaos and Warp-spawn are lost to us forever regardless of whether they know the Emperor's Truth. An ignorant heretic is still a heretic. They may be pitied, but should never be regarded with sympathy or mercy for they will turn upon the righteous and work to extinguish the Emperor's divine light whenever given the opportunity to do so.
The Heretic and Blasphemer can offer no excuse for their crimes. Those who are pardoned merely live to further shroud Humanity from the Light of the Emperor with the Darkness of their souls

Mudrat wrote:
Most people seem to be implying that they ever had a choice. Their first contact with Imperials ? Everyone shooting at everyone else, how's he supposed to have the slightest choice in the matter. Hate him for being an enemy and murdering Imperial citizens, sure. But remember that the only reason some CSM's are like they are is because, and to harp on it again, they were born in hell. Is Clagar, Grimnir, Dante, Creed and the rest had been born in the EoT, are we really going to pretend they'd be the Imperial heroes they are?

Choice is an illusion. A man, an individual, is insignificant and meaningless. His fate is determined by powers beyond his control. But a righteous soul will always find a way to rule his own fate by coming to the Emperor's service. To question that is to doubt, and to doubt is heretical.

Count me a heretic then
But yeah, my only problem is using the word traitor, it just means something different to me. Calling them all heretics goes down much easier.

It is important to understand that the Imperium is a nightmarish theocracy. The Emperor is both its secular ruler and its deity. Therefore treason and heresy always go together in 40k. All treason is heresy and all heresy is treason.
Therefore, from an Imperial point of view, any person who does not follow the Emperor is a traitor, even if they have never been loyal to the Emperor or part of the Imperium in the first place.

Ceann wrote:

Eisenhorn contradicts a lot of these points.
He does things without authorization.
He commits things that could be called acts of heresy.
However he still ultimately serves to the benefit of IoM.

Cypher is another example of this, but his actual loyalties are unknown.

The IoM seems to have a standpoint of, if you are not 100% on my side, then you are a traitor.

Eisenhorn would be considered 'rogue' and guilty of heresy even. Traitor means a break of allegience and use of force, it's a fine line but the difference is there.

Imperium of Man does recognize these, but tolerates none.

To those people saying "all of them", you have to be loyal to begin with to be a traitor.

INMO it is correct to assume that all chaos marines (new and old) are traitors at least from the Imperium's point of view as any heretic has a chance for redemption (getting purged /purging yourself) and as many do not want to repent and die they continue their existence as heretics for not worshipping the emperor, but the chaos deities as they were indoctrinated in so from early childhood and are traitors for not submitting themselves to mass purging.

The idea about self-purging comes from the dark angels as they make the heretics repent and then kill them and at that point, it is considered that they have been redeemed.

P.S.: Dark angel players/fans/knowledgeable persons correct me if I am wrong

sushi2001 wrote:
INMO it is correct to assume that all chaos marines (new and old) are traitors at least from the Imperium's point of view as any heretic has a chance for redemption (getting purged /purging yourself) and as many do not want to repent and die they continue their existence as heretics for not worshipping the emperor, but the chaos deities as they were indoctrinated in so from early childhood and are traitors for not submitting themselves to mass purging.

The idea about self-purging comes from the dark angels as they make the heretics repent and then kill them and at that point, it is considered that they have been redeemed.

P.S.: Dark angel players/fans/knowledgeable persons correct me if I am wrong

You have to commit treason to be a traitor, being a heretic isn't treason.

 Rippy wrote:
To those people saying "all of them", you have to be loyal to begin with to be a traitor.

Incorrect, as traitor does not refer to politics or factions but to species. Chaos and Heretics are traitors to the human race and increasing the risk of doom by xenos and chaos for the entire human race

Post 2017/05/05 09:39:21 Subject: What percentage of Chaos Space Marines are actually traitors?
sushi2001 wrote:
INMO it is correct to assume that all chaos marines (new and old) are traitors at least from the Imperium's point of view as any heretic has a chance for redemption (getting purged /purging yourself) and as many do not want to repent and die they continue their existence as heretics for not worshipping the emperor, but the chaos deities as they were indoctrinated in so from early childhood and are traitors for not submitting themselves to mass purging.

The idea about self-purging comes from the dark angels as they make the heretics repent and then kill them and at that point, it is considered that they have been redeemed.

P.S.: Dark angel players/fans/knowledgeable persons correct me if I am wrong


You have to commit treason to be a traitor, being a heretic isn't treason.

Yeah that's the problem for the Imperium a traitor and a heretic is nearly the same thing: as the Imperium represents humanity going against it while being human is considered betraying your own kind and thus a traitor and a heretic.

 Deadshot wrote:


Incorrect, as traitor does not refer to politics or factions but to species. Chaos and Heretics are traitors to the human race and increasing the risk of doom by xenos and chaos for the entire human race

I can tell you that you are wrong because in English, to use the word traitor to refer to a species doesn't make any sense, and GW doesn't do so either. Every entry of 'traitor' will always refer to treason, traitor marines, traitor titans etc.
Forces that were never part of the Imperium military that commit heresy and join Chaos, are heretics.

You can call them traitors to humanity, in some ideological sense, but you need to be part of a government force and then break away fromthat force/break oaths etc to commit treason and they never had the opportunity to begin with.

sushi2001 wrote:


Yeah that's the problem for the Imperium a traitor and a heretic is nearly the same thing: as the Imperium represents humanity going against it while being human is considered betraying your own kind and thus a traitor and a heretic.

I understand that they don't tolerate either actions, but my point here is that in the English language lol, TRAITOR is for someone that actually commits TREASON. and in the context of what this dude was asking, "how many traitors are still kicking" we are refering to the Marines who commited said treason, and if the Imperium would consider that any new recruits in those forces traitors as well.

Because they can't tell who is who, they would consider the unit and everyone in it to be traitors, but if their just Chaos marines that are from no traitor legion and not from a rengagde force, you could easily call them 'Chaos Forces' and label them as heretics, because they were never imperial Space marines to begin with.

Rippy wrote:To those people saying "all of them", you have to be loyal to begin with to be a traitor.

This is the Imperium of Man. Not the Imperium of people that just so happen to be loyal to it, but the Imperium of all Mankind, the Imperium of every single person everywhere in the universe no matter where they may be. The Imperium claims to be the only rightful ruler of the Human race. Therefore it has authority over all Humans and all Humans are supposed to be loyal to it. Those who are not loyal to it are traitors. It does not matter whether they have ever been loyal or not, they are supposed to be loyal.

Ginsu33 wrote:

sushi2001 wrote:
INMO it is correct to assume that all chaos marines (new and old) are traitors at least from the Imperium's point of view as any heretic has a chance for redemption (getting purged /purging yourself) and as many do not want to repent and die they continue their existence as heretics for not worshipping the emperor, but the chaos deities as they were indoctrinated in so from early childhood and are traitors for not submitting themselves to mass purging.

The idea about self-purging comes from the dark angels as they make the heretics repent and then kill them and at that point, it is considered that they have been redeemed.

P.S.: Dark angel players/fans/knowledgeable persons correct me if I am wrong

You have to commit treason to be a traitor, being a heretic isn't treason.

No, that is only true for secular states. When you live in a theocracy, where you are ruled by your god and where state and religion are essentially the same thing, treason and heresy also become the same thing. Treason is disloyalty to your ruler. Heresy is disloyalty to your religious authority. When your ruler is also your religious authority, disloyalty to either automatically means disloyalty to the other.

In 40k, when you are a heretic, you reject the canonical religious teachings of the God-Emperor of Man. Rejecting his religious teachings means you are an enemy of the God-Emperor. And since the God-Emperor is your rightful ruler, this means you have just committed treason.

Nonsense.

Treason is when you eat a caramel Twix and deny the existence of Peanut Butter Twix.

Heresy is when you eat double-stuft Oreos and claim they're better than normal Oreos.

 Ginsu33 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:


Incorrect, as traitor does not refer to politics or factions but to species. Chaos and Heretics are traitors to the human race and increasing the risk of doom by xenos and chaos for the entire human race

I can tell you that you are wrong because in English, to use the word traitor to refer to a species doesn't make any sense, and GW doesn't do so either. Every entry of 'traitor' will always refer to treason, traitor marines, traitor titans etc.
Forces that were never part of the Imperium military that commit heresy and join Chaos, are heretics.

You can call them traitors to humanity, in some ideological sense, but you need to be part of a government force and then break away fromthat force/break oaths etc to commit treason and they never had the opportunity to begin with.

sushi2001 wrote:


Yeah that's the problem for the Imperium a traitor and a heretic is nearly the same thing: as the Imperium represents humanity going against it while being human is considered betraying your own kind and thus a traitor and a heretic.

I understand that they don't tolerate either actions, but my point here is that in the English language lol, TRAITOR is for someone that actually commits TREASON. and in the context of what this dude was asking, "how many traitors are still kicking" we are refering to the Marines who commited said treason, and if the Imperium would consider that any new recruits in those forces traitors as well.

Because they can't tell who is who, they would consider the unit and everyone in it to be traitors, but if their just Chaos marines that are from no traitor legion and not from a rengagde force, you could easily call them 'Chaos Forces' and label them as heretics, because they were never imperial Space marines to begin with.

I can also tell you, you are wrong, because 40k doesn't work in English, for a start. Second, the Imperium IS mankind. You do not get a choice as to the species you are born into and you don't have a choice as to whether you want to support the furthering or extinction of your species. Either you want Mankind to live, and serve the Imperium, or want it to die and don't. The later is a betrayal of your species and race. Simple.

All of them. They serve Chaos, which is ruled by four "gods" that view humanity as nothing more than toys to play with, servants to lord over, and victims to be sacrificed. To serve them is to serve a force that, if its ultimate goal of bringing the Warp in to Realspace happens, will destroy humanity in the most horrific ways possible.