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Points wise, once you have your Battleline, why would you pick Ships over say all Thunderers for the remaining points? The ships don't look like they are more killy, Thunderers already have range to cover the board, and is embarking and mobility that important?

I don't have that much experience with really mobile armies in AoS, so some pointers as to why / how to use Ships would be appreciated. Thanks!

I haven't played a single game of Sigmar, but take this combo into consideration in answer to your question:

Barak Zilfin

Ironclad with Aetherspheric Endrins (essentially, can deep strike within 9" of an enemy)

Load it with 2 Khemists, 15 Endrinriggers and 20 Thunderers.

With the Khemist's buff you'll be obliterating anything you shoot at, and the Riggers are good in combat as well if you can make it there. Are the units good in isolation? Sure. Is the alpha strike better? Yes. Even if your opponent reserves a lot to counter your terrifying "deep strike" he's just ceded you control of the entire board; and you're going to be more mobile than he will be; typically.

The skyvessels are not meant to be very shooty or killy. They are there to transport all of your skyfarer units which are all very deadly but allso very fragile and will quickly loose some of their offensive power as soon as they start taking wounds.

But for the sake of argument, I can Alpha strike just as well with Thunderers with Mortars that I've deployed regularly from 36" away. I won't need a ship to transport me anywhere with that range.

Maybe I'm thinking to much like an artillery dwarf - which is what I used to play.

The Kharadron Playstyle favors an aggressive playstyle as well, high risks brings the highest profit after all. And for us, it's profit or die.

Here's the thing; Thunderers with all mortars are OP for their cost. Ships are not. If you are thinking from a strictly competitive standpoint then the answer is that you shouldn't use ships. In fact, you shouldn't use Kharadron allegiance either; couple mortar-thunderer spam with a pair of celestial hurricanums on vortexes and you'll murder people all day.

So the real question here is, how competitive do you aim to be?

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Here's the thing; Thunderers with all mortars are OP for their cost. Ships are not. If you are thinking from a strictly competitive standpoint then the answer is that you shouldn't use ships. In fact, you shouldn't use Kharadron allegiance either; couple mortar-thunderer spam with a pair of celestial hurricanums on vortexes and you'll murder people all day.

So the real question here is, how competitive do you aim to be?

+1 to this. If you're competitively minded just toss out pure KO as a concept unless the event format demands single allegiance. The ships are so frickin' cool though, I just can't help myself.

What's good about the ships?

They look cool and like nothing else in AoS? They are an extension of the old Dwarf Gyrocopters and Gyrobombers. Have you actually looked at the ships yet? So many details! So many hobby and painting possibilities! Even if they were complete gank on the table, I'd still use them.

Do people actually play AoS with a WAAC attitude? LOL That is so absurd.

I've just finished building my Frigate (i'm running one of each Skyvessel) and it's even more beautiful and detailed up close. I will say, that if you're running Skyvessels I would run Barak Zilfin to maximize their efficacy.

Ok, if it's not strictly competitive, and you're using Ships to transport regular Companies; are you simply using Ships to move Companies closer to focus fire given their short 12" range and 4" move?

Seems like Turn 1 - Move Ships, Turn - 2 Disembark and fire, Turn 3 - Embark back onto Ships. At most, you'll be able to do that twice in a full game.

Ships are strong not because they are great at any particular thing, but because there is a lot they can do. They shoot decently, they are great for blocking flank charges on shooting units, and they grant mobility to movement 4 duardin. The latter is particularly useful not for lining up shooting attacks but for jumping on that objective you need to get to next turn. A unit can move to the ship and embark, the ship can then move (and run), and next turn the unit can disembark 3" further then use their own movement, all of which can close even a 20" gap surprisingly easily.

 KiloFiX wrote:
Ok, if it's not strictly competitive, and you're using Ships to transport regular Companies; are you simply using Ships to move Companies closer to focus fire given their short 12" range and 4" move?

Seems like Turn 1 - Move Ships, Turn - 2 Disembark and fire, Turn 3 - Embark back onto Ships. At most, you'll be able to do that twice in a full game.

I think it's essential to go Barak-Zilfin if you're going ship heavy. For example, you "deep strike" the Ironclad with Aetherspheric Endrins and make it a clown car, stuffing as much scary stuff (Thunderers, Khemists, Endrinriggers) as you can. Then you use your once per game ability to double move a Frigate. All of a sudden, you are in your opponent's face on turn 1 and can embark again and move back to control the mid board on turn 2.

I could see ship heavy Mhornar being good as well, just not quite as effective.

If you're not going ship heavy, Urbaz Thunderer gunline is probably best and what I expect you'll see highest rated in events at least as the KO faction is concerned.

 The Shrike wrote:

 KiloFiX wrote:
Ok, if it's not strictly competitive, and you're using Ships to transport regular Companies; are you simply using Ships to move Companies closer to focus fire given their short 12" range and 4" move?

Seems like Turn 1 - Move Ships, Turn - 2 Disembark and fire, Turn 3 - Embark back onto Ships. At most, you'll be able to do that twice in a full game.

I think it's essential to go Barak-Zilfin if you're going ship heavy. For example, you "deep strike" the Ironclad with Aetherspheric Endrins and make it a clown car, stuffing as much scary stuff (Thunderers, Khemists, Endrinriggers) as you can. Then you use your once per game ability to double move a Frigate. All of a sudden, you are in your opponent's face on turn 1 and can embark again and move back to control the mid board on turn 2.

I could see ship heavy Mhornar being good as well, just not quite as effective.

If you're not going ship heavy, Urbaz Thunderer gunline is probably best and what I expect you'll see highest rated in events at least as the KO faction is concerned.

Can't use the once per game ability on the same turn you came down using the atmospheric endrins.

Tamwulf wrote:Do people actually play AoS with a WAAC attitude? LOL That is so absurd.

While I do agree that people should build armies for fun, having a competative mindset isn't a bad thing. If you're facing your opponent at least make sure the victory he's looking for is going to be hard fought.

NinthMusketeer wrote:Ships are strong not because they are great at any particular thing, but because there is a lot they can do. They shoot decently, they are great for blocking flank charges on shooting units, and they grant mobility to movement 4 duardin. The latter is particularly useful not for lining up shooting attacks but for jumping on that objective you need to get to next turn. A unit can move to the ship and embark, the ship can then move (and run), and next turn the unit can disembark 3" further then use their own movement, all of which can close even a 20" gap surprisingly easily.

Pretty much, The ships do play a big role but they're not the focus of the army (unless you're from Barak-Zilfin, in which your plan will be around using ships). They are built to transport troops in the safest and easiest way possible. They also add more punch to an assault, providing additional firepower. the fact that they can fire into combat as well means that even after your frigate is done delivering it's cargo, they can still help the small unit take down whatever the company is having problems with.

Though the worth of each ship varies considering how different all three of them are

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 The Shrike wrote:

 KiloFiX wrote:
Ok, if it's not strictly competitive, and you're using Ships to transport regular Companies; are you simply using Ships to move Companies closer to focus fire given their short 12" range and 4" move?

Seems like Turn 1 - Move Ships, Turn - 2 Disembark and fire, Turn 3 - Embark back onto Ships. At most, you'll be able to do that twice in a full game.

I think it's essential to go Barak-Zilfin if you're going ship heavy. For example, you "deep strike" the Ironclad with Aetherspheric Endrins and make it a clown car, stuffing as much scary stuff (Thunderers, Khemists, Endrinriggers) as you can. Then you use your once per game ability to double move a Frigate. All of a sudden, you are in your opponent's face on turn 1 and can embark again and move back to control the mid board on turn 2.

I could see ship heavy Mhornar being good as well, just not quite as effective.

If you're not going ship heavy, Urbaz Thunderer gunline is probably best and what I expect you'll see highest rated in events at least as the KO faction is concerned.

Can't use the once per game ability on the same turn you came down using the atmospheric endrins.

Respectfully, you misunderstood me. The Aetherspheric Endrins are on the Ironclad, the Frigate uses the double move.

So if using a Ship heavy mobility or objective holding Zilfin list - should one equip Companies with Skypike, Volleygun or Skyhook?

Like for 1 HQ, 2 Companies and 2 Frigates in a 1K list.

I think the Light Skyhook is all around the best; it's just a matter of acquiring the bits or converting them.

 KiloFiX wrote:
So if using a Ship heavy mobility or objective holding Zilfin list - should one equip Companies with Skypike, Volleygun or Skyhook?

Like for 1 HQ, 2 Companies and 2 Frigates in a 1K list.

We've already discussed this in a topic earlier, but the choice of special weapon is dependant on what role you want your arkanauts to fill,

- The Skypike is great for melee and brings a nice punch, but they do lose the pistol, so They're the most likely candidates to be in the frigate.

- The Skyhook should be given to guys who are either monster hunters or are going to hang back and hold the objective.

- The Volley gun is the middleman, low accuracy but so many -1 shots and a longer range than the pistols, three guns can pull out a total of 18 shots every time, which isn't too shabby coming from a 10 man group.

Since the kit comes with three of each it's up to you how to use them.

Personally for me I would have a group of 3 volley gunners in one group and two pikes and a hook on the other.

As for arming your frigates. The skyhook is considered really gimmicky but then again it does have the advantage of bringing your ship closer to your target. so if you can use it to your advantage, then go for it. Otherwise cannons all the way.

 The Shrike wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 The Shrike wrote:

 KiloFiX wrote:
Ok, if it's not strictly competitive, and you're using Ships to transport regular Companies; are you simply using Ships to move Companies closer to focus fire given their short 12" range and 4" move?

Seems like Turn 1 - Move Ships, Turn - 2 Disembark and fire, Turn 3 - Embark back onto Ships. At most, you'll be able to do that twice in a full game.

I think it's essential to go Barak-Zilfin if you're going ship heavy. For example, you "deep strike" the Ironclad with Aetherspheric Endrins and make it a clown car, stuffing as much scary stuff (Thunderers, Khemists, Endrinriggers) as you can. Then you use your once per game ability to double move a Frigate. All of a sudden, you are in your opponent's face on turn 1 and can embark again and move back to control the mid board on turn 2.

I could see ship heavy Mhornar being good as well, just not quite as effective.

If you're not going ship heavy, Urbaz Thunderer gunline is probably best and what I expect you'll see highest rated in events at least as the KO faction is concerned.

Can't use the once per game ability on the same turn you came down using the atmospheric endrins.

Respectfully, you misunderstood me. The Aetherspheric Endrins are on the Ironclad, the Frigate uses the double move.

Ah I see that now, apologies. At any rate, it seems it could be risky to put two frigate groups that far forward considering an enemy double turn 1-2 would be horrible to deal with. Would you fit it all into 1-drop deployment to secure turn choice? Assuming the Kharadron player is going second and doesn't get a double turn such a setup could be extremely adaptive. (And of course if the Kharadron player goes second and does get a double turn it's practically auto-win regardless of what you're running.)

Tge way I am seeing it the units of dwarfs exist as an excuse to field ships to carry them

The vessels are too cool to ignore and the faction begs you to build your collection around them. The combat power of the dwarves themselves are secondary, so long as they can win and you can field steampunk fleet it doesnt matter much what they do.

Yeah I plan on taking second turn pretty much 100% of the time. There aren't many armies that can reach out and touch you turn 1, So turn 2 I drop in the Ironclad, double move the frigate, dump everyone out shoot like heck, hope for the double turn. Even if I don't get the double turn, I plan on always overloading a flank which I should be able to achieve with Fleetmaster. That way whatever flank I choose I wipe out, meaning less of my guys get charged because I've created a big steaming hole of empty space my opponent has to cross.

My list isn't even optimized but I think the general early reaction that KO won't see top tables is wrong. This Zilfin clown car thing is just nuts especially combined with Fleetmaster. You can easily fit 15 Wndrinriggers, 20 Thunderers and 2 Khemists in that Ironclad while still paying for min battleline at 2k.

That being said I refuse to give in to the WAAC impulse.

That sounds like a good (and fun) strategy. Though I do think KO won't see top tables at tourneys, at least within Allegiance. By going generic Order one can do 20 Thunderer-Mortars + Khemist + Khemist + Hurricanum, then drop 60 shots at 3+/3+/d3 damage on you turn 1. Its a lose-lose because those shots either go first and hit you before you do anything, or go second and risk double turn auto-lose.