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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







Assuming a Space Marine firing (+3 Accuracy) using a Lascannon - S9, AP-3
2/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 = 20/54
18 / (3.5 * 20/54) = 13.885 Lascannon Shots

If he's getting +1 Armor from Cover
2/3 * 2/3 * 2/3 = 8/27
18 / (3.5 * 8/27) = 17.357 Lascannon Shots

Spoiler:
What about the Dreadnaught we saw before?
2/3 * 5/6 * 5/6 = 50/108
8 / (3.5 * 50/108) = 4.937 Lascannon Shots

and in cover?
2/3 * 5/6 * 2/3 = 20/54
8 / (3.5 * 20/54) = 6.171 Lascannon Shots


What about the Dreadnaught we saw before?
2/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 = 20/54
8 / (3.5 * 20/54) = 6.171 Lascannon Shots

and in cover?
2/3 * 2/3 * 2/3 = 8/27
8 / (3.5 * 8/27) = 7.714 Lascannon Shots

Source - https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/07/new-warhammer-40000-big-stuff-may7gw-homepage-post-4/

Edit - There is a rumor (I don't know if it's true or false) that 6 will always wound, so out of curiosity... How many Bolters Shots to kill Mork and Naught
2/3 * 1/6 * 1/3 = 2/54
18 / (2/54) = 486 Bolter Shots

and in cover...
2/3 * 1/6 * 1/6 = 2/108
18 / (2/108) = 972 Bolter Shots

Spoiler:
Don't forget Naught...
2/3 * 1/6 * 1/3 (1/6 Cover) = 2/54 (2/108)
8 / (2/54) = 216
8 / (2/108) = 432

Don't forget Naught...
2/3 * 1/3 * 1/3 (1/6 Cover) = 2/27 (2/54)
8 / (2/27) = 108 Normal
8 / (2/54) = 216 Cover


Edit - Fixed for new Wounding rules.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/05/08 15:51:08



6+ = 6/36 | Reroll 1s = 7/36 | Reroll Misses = 11/36 ||||||| 5+ = 12/36 | Reroll 1s 14/36 | Reroll Misses = 20/36 ||||||| 4+ = 18/36 | Reroll 1s 21/36 | Reroll Misses = 27/36
3+ = 24/36 | Reroll 1s 28/36 | Reroll Misses = 32/36 ||||||| 2+ = 30/36 | Reroll 1s 35/36 ||||||| Highest of 2d6 = 4.47
 
   
Made in us
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





So all in all: much more survivable then the current incarnation of fail (even with KFF)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/08 14:07:30


 
   
Made in de
Mighty Chosen Warrior of Chaos






 Talamare wrote:


What about the Dreadnaught we saw before?
2/3 * 5/6 * 5/6 = 50/108
8 / (3.5 * 50/108) = 4.937 Lascannon Shots


Wounding T8 on 2+ plus will allmost never happen in 8th Ed cuz you need S16
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/08/17794gw-homepage-post-4/

So it's not 5/6 but 4/6. That makes stuff tougher vs lascannon etc.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/05/08 14:20:36


 
   
Made in gb
Smokin' Skorcha Driver




London UK

Thanks for the math hammer. I have encountered a few people complaining that anything can hurt anything but as you've shown it will be close to impossible for bolters to kill a naut. Its not impossible that they can strip a few wounds off them though which will be the cumulative effect that can kill big things. Based on your math hammering it is conceivable that a unit of 10 tacticals rapid firing with just bolters could strip a wound off it add in one special weapon and combi weapon and they aren't safe from damage/

In yesterdays release it was worrying that they said,

There are almost no weapons in the game now that can instantly kill these big guys, so there will be no shortcuts to dealing with them – you have to get your hands dirty and take those Wounds off.

That implies that there will be something or a few things that can one shot kill bigguns.

   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

Lascannon Wounds it on a 3+, Boltgun on a 5+ according to new table


https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/08/17794gw-homepage-post-4/

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
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"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

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on the forum. Obviously

 Nithaniel wrote:
Thanks for the math hammer. I have encountered a few people complaining that anything can hurt anything but as you've shown it will be close to impossible for bolters to kill a naut. Its not impossible that they can strip a few wounds off them though which will be the cumulative effect that can kill big things. Based on your math hammering it is conceivable that a unit of 10 tacticals rapid firing with just bolters could strip a wound off it add in one special weapon and combi weapon and they aren't safe from damage/

In yesterdays release it was worrying that they said,

There are almost no weapons in the game now that can instantly kill these big guys, so there will be no shortcuts to dealing with them – you have to get your hands dirty and take those Wounds off.

That implies that there will be something or a few things that can one shot kill bigguns.



They'll probably introduce a weapon that has a 3D6 damage stat or something.
Maybe that's what the old Titankiller weapons will get now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Lascannon Wounds it on a 3+, Boltgun on a 5+ according to new table


https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/08/17794gw-homepage-post-4/


6+ to wound, actually. Its a 6+ if the weapon's strength is half or less than the target's toughness.
Bolter S4 is half of Morka's T8

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/08 14:26:18


What I have
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Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

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Made in de
Mighty Chosen Warrior of Chaos






 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Nithaniel wrote:
Thanks for the math hammer. I have encountered a few people complaining that anything can hurt anything but as you've shown it will be close to impossible for bolters to kill a naut. Its not impossible that they can strip a few wounds off them though which will be the cumulative effect that can kill big things. Based on your math hammering it is conceivable that a unit of 10 tacticals rapid firing with just bolters could strip a wound off it add in one special weapon and combi weapon and they aren't safe from damage/

In yesterdays release it was worrying that they said,

There are almost no weapons in the game now that can instantly kill these big guys, so there will be no shortcuts to dealing with them – you have to get your hands dirty and take those Wounds off.

That implies that there will be something or a few things that can one shot kill bigguns.



They'll probably introduce a weapon that has a 3D6 damage stat or something.
Maybe that's what the old Titankiller weapons will get now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Lascannon Wounds it on a 3+, Boltgun on a 5+ according to new table


https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/08/17794gw-homepage-post-4/


6+ to wound, actually. Its a 6+ if the weapon's strength is half or less than the target's toughness.
Bolter S4 is half of Morka's T8


I think he was referring to the dreadnought.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/08 14:31:06


 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

nordsturmking wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Lascannon Wounds it on a 3+, Boltgun on a 5+ according to new table


https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/08/17794gw-homepage-post-4/


6+ to wound, actually. Its a 6+ if the weapon's strength is half or less than the target's toughness.
Bolter S4 is half of Morka's T8


I think he was referring to the dreadnought.


Opps - good point

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

nordsturmking wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Lascannon Wounds it on a 3+, Boltgun on a 5+ according to new table


https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/08/17794gw-homepage-post-4/


6+ to wound, actually. Its a 6+ if the weapon's strength is half or less than the target's toughness.
Bolter S4 is half of Morka's T8


I think he was referring to the dreadnought.


Oh yeah, against a dread it would be a 5+
Which means they aren't quite as tough as I'd thought, but still tough enough to want to bring an AT weapon.

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Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Oyoy these wounding changes reveal happened literally today

but I just edited the original post to reveal the new rules.

I kept the original values in a spoiler.


6+ = 6/36 | Reroll 1s = 7/36 | Reroll Misses = 11/36 ||||||| 5+ = 12/36 | Reroll 1s 14/36 | Reroll Misses = 20/36 ||||||| 4+ = 18/36 | Reroll 1s 21/36 | Reroll Misses = 27/36
3+ = 24/36 | Reroll 1s 28/36 | Reroll Misses = 32/36 ||||||| 2+ = 30/36 | Reroll 1s 35/36 ||||||| Highest of 2d6 = 4.47
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Wait until they reveal the really strong weapons!

Who wants to take bets on what the max damage will be in 8th ed? 2d6? 3d6? 4d6? 5d6?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/08 15:22:29


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Flashlight have never been more Flashlights than they ever Flashlighted before...

vs Dread & Mork in Cover
1/3 * 1/6 * 1/6 = 1/108
8 / (1/108) = 864 Flashlights vs Dread
18 / (1/108) = 1944 Flashlights vs Mork

In other words...
50 Conscripts in Rapid Fire range using...
First Rank FIRE!
Second Rank FIRE!
Third Rank FIRE!
Fourth Rank FIRE!
Fifth Rank FIRE!
Sixth Rank FIRE!
...
Thirty Seventh Rank FIRE!


6+ = 6/36 | Reroll 1s = 7/36 | Reroll Misses = 11/36 ||||||| 5+ = 12/36 | Reroll 1s 14/36 | Reroll Misses = 20/36 ||||||| 4+ = 18/36 | Reroll 1s 21/36 | Reroll Misses = 27/36
3+ = 24/36 | Reroll 1s 28/36 | Reroll Misses = 32/36 ||||||| 2+ = 30/36 | Reroll 1s 35/36 ||||||| Highest of 2d6 = 4.47
 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Kroot Stalker





 Talamare wrote:
Flashlight have never been more Flashlights than they ever Flashlighted before...

vs Dread & Mork in Cover
1/3 * 1/6 * 1/6 = 1/108
8 / (1/108) = 864 Flashlights vs Dread
18 / (1/108) = 1944 Flashlights vs Mork

In other words...
50 Conscripts in Rapid Fire range using...
First Rank FIRE!
Second Rank FIRE!
Third Rank FIRE!
Fourth Rank FIRE!
Fifth Rank FIRE!
Sixth Rank FIRE!
...
Thirty Seventh Rank FIRE!


Cute!

(Why 1/3 chance to hit? Did they release something suggesting Guard are BS 2 equivalents now?)

Considering how well flashlights did against Dreadnoughts and Morkanauts in the current and previous editions, I'm not sure we can call this a nerf to flashlights, though... Barely scatching the paint is better than not being able to scratch the paint at all, after all!
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Unusual Suspect wrote:

Cute!

(Why 1/3 chance to hit? Did they release something suggesting Guard are BS 2 equivalents now?)

Considering how well flashlights did against Dreadnoughts and Morkanauts in the current and previous editions, I'm not sure we can call this a nerf to flashlights, though... Barely scatching the paint is better than not being able to scratch the paint at all, after all!

Conscripts are BS2 (in 7th edition)

I was trying to push the required number of shots as high as possible. So unless you know of BS1 guns, this is basically the highest (average) number of shots required to kill something.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/08 15:40:18



6+ = 6/36 | Reroll 1s = 7/36 | Reroll Misses = 11/36 ||||||| 5+ = 12/36 | Reroll 1s 14/36 | Reroll Misses = 20/36 ||||||| 4+ = 18/36 | Reroll 1s 21/36 | Reroll Misses = 27/36
3+ = 24/36 | Reroll 1s 28/36 | Reroll Misses = 32/36 ||||||| 2+ = 30/36 | Reroll 1s 35/36 ||||||| Highest of 2d6 = 4.47
 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Kroot Stalker





Fair enough (though a bit deceptive, but eh, whatever).

Mathhammer for Pulse Rifle (presuming they stay at S5):

out of cover - 1/2 * 1/3 * 1/3 = 1/18 per wound
in cover - 1/2 * 1/3 * 1/6 = 1/36 per wound

For Dreads, that means you'll need 144 pulse shots out of cover (that's just gross... ;P) and 288 in cover.

For Morkanauts, that's 324 shots out of cover and 648 in cover.
   
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 Talamare wrote:

2/3 * 2/3 * 1/3 (1/6 Cover) = 4/27 (4/54)
8 / (4/27) = 54 Normal
8 / (4/54) = 108 Cover



Wait a second, shouldn't this be 2/3 * 1/3 * 1/3?

 
   
Made in us
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 Luciferian wrote:
 Talamare wrote:

2/3 * 2/3 * 1/3 (1/6 Cover) = 4/27 (4/54)
8 / (4/27) = 54 Normal
8 / (4/54) = 108 Cover



Wait a second, shouldn't this be 2/3 * 1/3 * 1/3?


Lascannons are confirmed S9, against the Dread/Mork's T7/8, wounds on 3+ based on the new table, so no, 2/3 is appropriate for the to-wound roll.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Fair enough (though a bit deceptive, but eh, whatever).

Mathhammer for Pulse Rifle (presuming they stay at S5):

out of cover - 1/2 * 1/3 * 1/3 = 1/18 per wound
in cover - 1/2 * 1/3 * 1/6 = 1/36 per wound

For Dreads, that means you'll need 144 pulse shots out of cover (that's just gross... ;P) and 288 in cover.

For Morkanauts, that's 324 shots out of cover and 648 in cover.

Tau Pulse Rifles and Bolters have 0 differences when shooting at Dreadnaughts
Hell even Wind Rider's S6 Scatterlaser might as well be the exact same gun when shooting at Dreadnaughts.

So it just highlights the Tau's lower accuracy and nothing else.
However, when shooting at Mork Tau becomes 50% better compared to Bolters.

1/2 * 1/3 * 1/6 = 1/36
2/3 * 1/6 * 1/6 = 1/54

 Luciferian wrote:
 Talamare wrote:

2/3 * 2/3 * 1/3 (1/6 Cover) = 4/27 (4/54)
8 / (4/27) = 54 Normal
8 / (4/54) = 108 Cover



Wait a second, shouldn't this be 2/3 * 1/3 * 1/3?

You're right, fixed... The downfall of copy pasting

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/08 15:57:28



6+ = 6/36 | Reroll 1s = 7/36 | Reroll Misses = 11/36 ||||||| 5+ = 12/36 | Reroll 1s 14/36 | Reroll Misses = 20/36 ||||||| 4+ = 18/36 | Reroll 1s 21/36 | Reroll Misses = 27/36
3+ = 24/36 | Reroll 1s 28/36 | Reroll Misses = 32/36 ||||||| 2+ = 30/36 | Reroll 1s 35/36 ||||||| Highest of 2d6 = 4.47
 
   
Made in us
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle






 Unusual Suspect wrote:
 Luciferian wrote:
 Talamare wrote:

2/3 * 2/3 * 1/3 (1/6 Cover) = 4/27 (4/54)
8 / (4/27) = 54 Normal
8 / (4/54) = 108 Cover



Wait a second, shouldn't this be 2/3 * 1/3 * 1/3?


Lascannons are confirmed S9, against the Dread/Mork's T7/8, wounds on 3+ based on the new table, so no, 2/3 is appropriate for the to-wound roll.


In that example he's talking about bolters, though.

 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

This is a little disconcerting.

If Lascannons dealt 6 wounds guaranteed, it would take an expected 8-9 shots to kill a Morkanaut.

That's 2 rounds of fire from a devastator squad, an investment of ~300 points.

Ironically, heavy melee is the way to do it. You get way more attacks and you'll strike first on the charge. Assuming terminators with thunder hammers have strength 8 and a -3 save mod (equiv), and deal D3 wounds, with 15 attacks on the charge, you're looking at double the expected wounds.

Heavy Lascannon Squad: Expected wounds: 5.18; Max Wounds: 8.89

Assault Terminator Squad: Expected Wounds: 10.41; Max Wounds: 15.625

If these assumptions are correct, the way to kill big vehicles is with melee., not with shooting.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
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Dont factor in cover for vehicles and monstrous creatures, they heavily hinted it would only work for infantry.

warhammer 40k mmo. If I can drive an ork trukk into the back of a space marine dread and explode in a fireball of epic, I can die happy!

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 Orock wrote:
Dont factor in cover for vehicles and monstrous creatures, they heavily hinted it would only work for infantry.

Or at least very difficult to include. Maybe like Cover for Vehicles in 6th Edition?

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East Bay, Ca, US

 Orock wrote:
Dont factor in cover for vehicles and monstrous creatures, they heavily hinted it would only work for infantry.


In the FLGS where I play, there are some very nice ruined buildings that are big enough to both fully and 75% obscure a morkanaut, pretty easily. I have to imagine it would get a +1 cover save for that.

Just another reason why assault seems like the way to go here for eliminating big targets. Especially if they eliminated stomp.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/08 17:04:23


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






I dont think it matters how much cover you have, as people can weave and bob in between cover and shooting where a giant robot standing there cant. It may be as a balance factor only, they have decided things like monstrous creatures and vehicles cannot benefit from it. Or you would see nothing but broods of three dakkafexes hiding in ruins every game.

warhammer 40k mmo. If I can drive an ork trukk into the back of a space marine dread and explode in a fireball of epic, I can die happy!

8k points
3k points
3k points
Admech 2.5k points
 
   
Made in de
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 Orock wrote:
I dont think it matters how much cover you have, as people can weave and bob in between cover and shooting where a giant robot standing there cant. It may be as a balance factor only, they have decided things like monstrous creatures and vehicles cannot benefit from it. Or you would see nothing but broods of three dakkafexes hiding in ruins every game.

I really hope i can retire my Dakkafexes. I want them to be good in CC again after over 10 years of Dakka. Can't wait to see the rules for Carinfexes and Synaps.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/08 17:26:57


 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Kroot Stalker





 Orock wrote:
Dont factor in cover for vehicles and monstrous creatures, they heavily hinted it would only work for infantry.


They heavily hinted that infantry would have better access (and potentially better benefit) from cover, but I don't think what they've stated has hinted, in any way, shape, or form, that ONLY infantry can make use of ANY cover.
   
Made in de
Deadly Dire Avenger






 Nithaniel wrote:
That implies that there will be something or a few things that can one shot kill bigguns.
Titan-killers for sure will be able to. Inferno-Cannons, Pulsars, D-Bombards, ... They will wrack havoc with whatever is the target. However, since templates are gone, the damage will be very local...

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 Marmatag wrote:
This is a little disconcerting.

If Lascannons dealt 6 wounds guaranteed, it would take an expected 8-9 shots to kill a Morkanaut.

That's 2 rounds of fire from a devastator squad, an investment of ~300 points.

Ironically, heavy melee is the way to do it. You get way more attacks and you'll strike first on the charge. Assuming terminators with thunder hammers have strength 8 and a -3 save mod (equiv), and deal D3 wounds, with 15 attacks on the charge, you're looking at double the expected wounds.

Heavy Lascannon Squad: Expected wounds: 5.18; Max Wounds: 8.89

Assault Terminator Squad: Expected Wounds: 10.41; Max Wounds: 15.625

If these assumptions are correct, the way to kill big vehicles is with melee., not with shooting.


Which is a REALLY interesting way to make close combat important/viable.


 
   
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 Hendarion wrote:
 Nithaniel wrote:
That implies that there will be something or a few things that can one shot kill bigguns.
Titan-killers for sure will be able to. Inferno-Cannons, Pulsars, D-Bombards, ... They will wrack havoc with whatever is the target. However, since templates are gone, the damage will be very local...

Unless they have a rule that deals damage to nearby units or something. Remember, we haven't seen any rules for weapons of that magnitude.

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Pfssh, the guard put out that many shots on their slow days! #Guard4Life

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